Kansas City still looking for team?

[Ryan34222]

Paying to the top of a salary cap, in an antiquated arena, during a recession, in Hamilton which is a rust belt city?

are suggesting the fine people of Hamilton cannot afford the NHL?

 

[MoreOrr]

That was actually the Penguins, and the NHL contacted him, not visa versa. But that was so "last century".

I see that kbd209 already beat me to it:
http://www.examiner.com/phoenix-coyotes-in-phoenix/phoenix-coyotes-101-what-is-jobing-com-arena

By 2001, the Coyotes were running out of time in the Valley of the Sun. With its obstructed view seats and lack of revenue for the Desert Dogs, they couldn’t survive at America West Arena any longer. Microsoft billionaire Paul Allen was on his way to purchase the team and move it to Portland, OR when Coyotes management reached a deal with the City of Glendale on a new arena and entertainment complex at the Loop 101 and Glendale Avenue.

 

[MoreOrr]

With the latest rumor that the League is considering Nashville for the Southeast unless Detroit somehow forces their hand and then it would be Detroit and also likely in the Southeast, because the two northeastern Divisions don't want their respective Divisions changed,... then imagine if Quebec City might enter the picture?

That, on top of the now discussed bad image for US-hockey if two US cities in a row lose teams to Canada, is just another reason to predict that Quebec City won't be getting the Coyotes if it becomes necessary to relocate the team. If the League/northeast Divisions would force Detroit into the Southeast, then they're certainly going to be looking desperately for another relocation option over Quebec City.

And another straw on the anti-Quebec City vote would be Detroit, because if Detroit fought all this time to get in the East, then be damned if it's going to want to go back in the West in order to make room for Quebec City.

So unless the League actually does decide to put Nashville in that Southeast Division (could be considered to be a stop-gap move), then Quebec City is even moreso a non-go anytime soon. It would be just as natural a move to put Nashville back in the West. The only other option for Quebec City would be if another eastern city needs to be relocated... That or just waiting for Expansion.

 

[dronald]

With the latest rumor that the League is considering Nashville for the Southeast unless Detroit somehow forces their hand and then it would be Detroit and also likely in the Southeast, because the two northeastern Divisions don't want their respective Divisions changed,... then imagine if Quebec City might enter the picture?


And another straw on the anti-Quebec City vote would be Detroit, because if Detroit fought all this time to get in the East, then be damned if it's going to want to go back in the West in order to make room for Quebec City.

So unless the League actually does decide to put Nashville in that Southeast Division (could be considered to be a stop-gap move), then Quebec City is even moreso a non-go anytime soon. It would be just as natural a move to put Nashville back in the West. The only other option for Quebec City would be if another eastern city needs to be relocated... That or just waiting for Expansion.

Did you just come up with this now, or did you read it somewhere? Because this theory seems so farfetched considering QC has an arena and an owner ready to move any team out of bankruptcy. To ignore everything that QC offers and base it on realignment is crazy, where did you get this?

That, on top of the now discussed bad image for US-hockey if two US cities in a row lose teams to Canada, is just another reason to predict that Quebec City won't be getting the Coyotes if it becomes necessary to relocate the team. If the League/northeast Divisions would force Detroit into the Southeast, then they're certainly going to be looking desperately for another relocation option over Quebec City.

If the team moves to KC and fails it will create a much worse image for Hockey than if they go to QC. Also, where is your proof that it will create a bad image for Hockey? I'm really not worried about the very small amount of fans in Phoenix and it's not like NYC or Chicago will give two craps.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Did you just come up with this now, or did you read it somewhere? Because this theory seems so farfetched considering QC has an arena and an owner ready to move any team out of bankruptcy. To ignore everything that QC offers and base it on realignment is crazy, where did you get this?




If the team moves to KC and fails it will create a much worse image for Hockey than if they go to QC. Also, where is your proof that it will create a bad image for Hockey? I'm really not worried about the very small amount of fans in Phoenix and it's not like NYC or Chicago will give two craps.

In Canada it will, but we are trying to grow the game here.

 

[dronald]

In Canada it will, but we are trying to grow the game here.

Nice to have your opinion but I could really use some facts.

Let me lay out mine for you...

There are more fans in Canada, if Bettman turns on QC just to "Grow the game in the States" after they build a new arena and a team has to be moved then Canada will be up in arms.

Assuming Phoenix moves, the small fan base will hardly notice, look at this article from today on Atlanta...

"It's an enormous emotional loss," said Michael Gearon Jr., who was one of the Thrashers' co-owners. "The hardest part for me, by a long shot, is what it meant to my family. We were all huge fans."

Unfortunately, they didn't have a lot of company.

The Thrashers were traditionally one of the worst-drawing teams in the league. They struggled on the ice, too, making the playoffs only once during their 12-year existence. A last-ditch rally to save the team drew only a few hundred die-hards. When the Thrashers shuffled off to Winnipeg in early June, the reaction around Atlanta was a collective, "Hey, when does football season start?"

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/05/2440317/atlanta-trades-thrashers-for-minor.html

That was the Miamiherald, not a "Biased Canadian media source."

Also, people in cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago, even St. Louis or anywhere else won't care. Why would anyone care?

 

[MoreOrr]

Did you just come up with this now, or did you read it somewhere? Because this theory seems so farfetched considering QC has an arena and an owner ready to move any team out of bankruptcy. To ignore everything that QC offers and base it on realignment is crazy, where did you get this?

Come up with what?

The latest report http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=594302 has it that the League/northeastern Divisions don't want to be changed in any way, and that if Detroit goes East that likely it would be to the Southeast.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Nice to have your opinion but I could really use some facts.

Let me lay out mine for you...

There are more fans in Canada, if Bettman turns on QC just to "Grow the game in the States" after they build a new arena and a team has to be moved then Canada will be up in arms.

Assuming Phoenix moves, the small fan base will hardly notice, look at this article from today on Atlanta...

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/05/2440317/atlanta-trades-thrashers-for-minor.html

That was the Miamiherald, not a "Biased Canadian media source."

Also, people in cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago, even St. Louis or anywhere else won't care. Why would anyone care?

If you know anything about Canadianpolitics you would know a lot of people out west don't care for QC, there was an uproar out there when tax money was mused for the new stadium.


The US has the money, the media and the people, Canada simply does not.

 

[dronald]

If you know anything about Canadianpolitics you would know a lot of people out west don't care for QC, there was an uproar out there when tax money was mused for the new stadium.

So rivalries between the Habs in the East and many Canadian teams in the West?

The US has the money, the media and the people, Canada simply does not.

Everything in this post is wrong when it comes to Hockey.

 

[Melrose Munch]

So rivalries between the Habs in the East and many Canadian teams in the West?



Everything in this post is wrong when it comes to Hockey.

The us has more money and media. People I concede

Why can't you see "Is Hockey dying" on the front page of the sports section is major markets? That's what MoreOrr is getting at.

 

[dronald]

The us has more money and media. People I concede

Why can't you see "Is Hockey dying" on the front page of the sports section is major markets? That's what MoreOrr is getting at.

Perhaps you should ask that question around here and see what people say.

The answer anyone will give you is, no, Hockey is not dying. Again, link me to these sites that are saying this, they will be disproved over and over again. Then again, I have yet to see such sites.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Perhaps you should ask that question around here and see what people say.

The answer anyone will give you is, no, Hockey is not dying. Again, link me to these sites that are saying this, they will be disproved over and over again. Then again, I have yet to see such sites.

The was if if Quebec gets the team and in the US major media markets.

Personally I want to see the nordiques.

 

[roccerfeller]

Paying to the top of a salary cap, in an antiquated arena, during a recession, in Hamilton which is a rust belt city?

I'm sure you don't believe that Hamilton would not work, though I don't know enough about the arena (i.e. can it be gutted out and re-done a la BC Place where the Lions now call home) as the arena issue is one that keeps coming up. Also, they might not necessarily pay to the top of the cap it depends on the management, however the focus would be less on Hamilton and more on another Southern Ontario team; I'm sure you'd agree that area could support another team.

Why can't you just drive to Toronto or Buffalo like my sister does?

drive? DRIVE melrose?? What madness is this?!?

Im just kidding. I can understand the desire to see another team in Southern Ontario. Somewhat tangental - Would Buffalo's attendance be affected much as a result? Are there really that many STH's from Hamilton that it would affect their attendance in a bad way?

I grew up in Winnipeg, and wish it well, but was very surprised that Winnipeg, with a 15,000 seat arena was even in consideration for the Thrashers. So yes, the NHL probably is desparate. I think that if Alexander or Allen had said they wanted the Thrashers for next year, they would've gotten them rather than Winnipeg.

The best hope is that the sudden onset of the Atlanta situation meant that the Houston and Portland arenas couldn't clear 45 dates for 2011-2012. Regardless of how Bettman feels about moving teams to Canada, I'm sure that Detroit and Columbus would much rather have Phoenix go to Houston or Kansas City or Portland, versus Quebec.

Hmm good points, though I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Bettman said long ago he never had any issues with the MTS Centre being 15000 and even questioned if that was better for certain markets. Media pep talk, perhaps, but there is a legitimate business case to made for a smaller arena, and as Mark Chipman revealed during his ROTJ to Wpg aftermath speech, it was the goal from the beginning thus implied MTSC was built with the return of the NHL one day in mind. Teams aren't moved based on "smaller" arenas, and I think Mark Chipman and TNSE presented to the NHL a strong business-minded showing and ownership group that, imo, had far more weight as a deciding factor.

Also, I don't agree with your assessment regarding Allen/Alexander etc. hypothetically wanting the team being any better. Bettman doesn't just look at cash or area (case in point: Jimmy & Southern Ontario area), it also depends on who presents you with a more compelling business model, and TNSE simply has an outstanding vision and business model. Plus, don't forget David Thomson's involvement...

So... Quebec City does not deserve a team because you say so???

So typical of a Leafs fan to look down on the support of everyone else.

Not to worry, I've come to learn that once the Leafs turn into a good team again, the fans won't be so cranky anymore

 

[knorthern knight]

Not to worry, I've come to learn that once the Leafs turn into a good team again, the fans won't be so cranky anymore

Now both halves of my best joke will be totally ruined. I'm not a comedian, but this one used to get major laughs a year ago...

I grew up in Winnipeg, and now I live in Toronto. Believe it or not, both cities are very similar. Every winter, hockey fans in each city gather in in sports bars to watch NHL games, and reminisce about the good old days, when their city used to have a major league hockey team

 

[knorthern knight]

If KC (or Houston or Portland) put up a serious offer, they'll snap up Phoenix, assuming Jamison can't finance a deal. Keeping the former Coyotes in the west would solve the Detroit/Columbus problem, and avoid 3 or 4 seasons in an old temporary arena. I think that there'll be more teams moving by 2015, so Quebec would only miss out on a year or two of games at "La Old Colisee". Who knows, there may be 2 teams moving bext spring.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm sure you don't believe that Hamilton would not work, though I don't know enough about the arena (i.e. can it be gutted out and re-done a la BC Place where the Lions now call home) as the arena issue is one that keeps coming up. Also, they might not necessarily pay to the top of the cap it depends on the management, however the focus would be less on Hamilton and more on another Southern Ontario team; I'm sure you'd agree that area could support another team.



drive? DRIVE melrose?? What madness is this?!?

Im just kidding. I can understand the desire to see another team in Southern Ontario. Somewhat tangental - Would Buffalo's attendance be affected much as a result? Are there really that many STH's from Hamilton that it would affect their attendance in a bad way?



Hmm good points, though I'm not sure I agree with that. I think Bettman said long ago he never had any issues with the MTS Centre being 15000 and even questioned if that was better for certain markets. Media pep talk, perhaps, but there is a legitimate business case to made for a smaller arena, and as Mark Chipman revealed during his ROTJ to Wpg aftermath speech, it was the goal from the beginning thus implied MTSC was built with the return of the NHL one day in mind. Teams aren't moved based on "smaller" arenas, and I think Mark Chipman and TNSE presented to the NHL a strong business-minded showing and ownership group that, imo, had far more weight as a deciding factor.

Also, I don't agree with your assessment regarding Allen/Alexander etc. hypothetically wanting the team being any better. Bettman doesn't just look at cash or area (case in point: Jimmy & Southern Ontario area), it also depends on who presents you with a more compelling business model, and TNSE simply has an outstanding vision and business model. Plus, don't forget David Thomson's involvement...



Not to worry, I've come to learn that once the Leafs turn into a good team again, the fans won't be so cranky anymore

good to see you sir, how is everything?

I think so. A lot of Canadian go down to watch and that would be gone if Hamilton got a team.

 

[Ryan34222]

good to see you sir, how is everything?

I think so. A lot of Canadian go down to watch and that would be gone if Hamilton got a team.

Disagree, the tickets would be eaten up by the Wentworth Halton Brant regions.. Niagara area would still need to go to Sabres games to get their NHL fix

And don't feed me the they'd watch on TV crapola... If that were true they could have been watching the leafs rather than attending Buffalo games

 

[Melrose Munch]

Disagree, the tickets would be eaten up by the Wentworth Halton Brant regions.. Niagara area would still need to go to Sabres games to get their NHL fix

And don't feed me the they'd watch on TV crapola... If that were true they could have been watching the leafs rather than attending Buffalo games

This is true but a lot of people hate the Leafs. That beyond anything is the motivation for a team in Hamilton. Something for non Leafs fans to rally behind.

 

[RandR]

Disagree, the tickets would be eaten up by the Wentworth Halton Brant regions.. Niagara area would still need to go to Sabres games to get their NHL fix

And don't feed me the they'd watch on TV crapola... If that were true they could have been watching the leafs rather than attending Buffalo games

Why would people in Wentworth-Halton-Brant have a better chance of gobbling up season tickets than people in St Catherines or Welland? It won't matter where somebody is from (within reason) when it comes to selling season tickets and other ticket packages. This is particularly true because the internet would likely be used for initial season ticket sales (as it was this year in Winnipeg).

And regarding TV, most people only have so much time and interest to watch NHL on television. Having an additional team's games on local TV and radio would certainly cause some people (unknown percentage) in the Niagara region to watch at least some Hamilton games at the expense of at least some Sabre games, especially when both teams have games on TV at the same time. I was only a casual Sabres fan when I was growing up in Welland; if I was still living there I can certainly imagine switching to watching Hamilton games on TV instead of Sabres if, for example, the Sabres started missing the playoffs and the Hamilton team was generating more of a buzz.

 

[Confucius]

This is true but a lot of people hate the Leafs. That beyond anything is the motivation for a team in Hamilton. Something for non Leafs fans to rally behind.

I was at National sports last weekend, there's this guy there with his 5 year old daughter. She spies a pink hockey jersey, the Dad says that is nice but too0 bad it's a Leaf jersey.

 

[dronald]

Why would people in Wentworth-Halton-Brant have a better chance of gobbling up season tickets than people in St Catherines or Welland? It won't matter where somebody is from (within reason) when it comes to selling season tickets and other ticket packages. This is particularly true because the internet would likely be used for initial season ticket sales (as it was this year in Winnipeg).

And regarding TV, most people only have so much time and interest to watch NHL on television. Having an additional team's games on local TV and radio would certainly cause some people (unknown percentage) in the Niagara region to watch at least some Hamilton games at the expense of at least some Sabre games, especially when both teams have games on TV at the same time. I was only a casual Sabres fan when I was growing up in Welland; if I was still living there I can certainly imagine switching to watching Hamilton games on TV instead of Sabres if, for example, the Sabres started missing the playoffs and the Hamilton team was generating more of a buzz.

No one is argueing with you that people will watch Hamilton, but that's the point in putting a franchise there. Doesn't mean that Buffalo is screwed.

 

[Ryan34222]

Why would people in Wentworth-Halton-Brant have a better chance of gobbling up season tickets than people in St Catherines or Welland? It won't matter where somebody is from (within reason) when it comes to selling season tickets and other ticket packages. This is particularly true because the internet would likely be used for initial season ticket sales (as it was this year in Winnipeg).

And regarding TV, most people only have so much time and interest to watch NHL on television. Having an additional team's games on local TV and radio would certainly cause some people (unknown percentage) in the Niagara region to watch at least some Hamilton games at the expense of at least some Sabre games, especially when both teams have games on TV at the same time. I was only a casual Sabres fan when I was growing up in Welland; if I was still living there I can certainly imagine switching to watching Hamilton games on TV instead of Sabres if, for example, the Sabres started missing the playoffs and the Hamilton team was generating more of a buzz.

its more convenient aswell for Niagara/Erie residents to attend a Buffalo games, STH or non, which is a half hour away rather than drive over an hour to Hamilton. not to mention dollar amount, you are getting a whole lot of bang for buck in Buffalo..

 

[barneyg]

Come up with what?

The latest report http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=594302 has it that the League/northeastern Divisions don't want to be changed in any way, and that if Detroit goes East that likely it would be to the Southeast.

In all fairness, nothing in that EJ Hradek piece says that re-alignment has anything to do with relocation decisions. That piece reports BOG discussions on the basis of holding the current setup (with Winnipeg and Phoenix) fixed.

At this point, I think it's fair to say that the re-alignment implications of welcoming QC back into the league could play a role in the votes of some BOG members. But concluding that "Quebec City is even moreso a non-go anytime soon" because the Wings would rather be in the Eastern conference is a reach. IMO, QC's chances hinge a lot more on the NHL's US/Canada strategy -- also undisclosed, as I mentioned in my previous post -- than on re-alignment talk.

 

[RandR]

its more convenient for Niagara/Erie residents to attend a Buffalo games, STH or non, which is a half hour away rather than drive over an hour to Hamilton. not to mention dollar amount, you are getting a whole lot of bang for buck in Buffalo..

I haven't lived in Welland for quite a while, but when I did it was a little over an hour to get to Copps Coliseum from home and it was no more than 10 minutes less to get to the old Sabres arena because of the lineup at the border before a game (and afterward if we came straight home after the game). With a passport required now to cross the border by car, I would expect the border lineups to be slower now so the difference in drive time would likely be insignificant now.

St Catharines, of course, is the largest city and thus biggest sports market in the Niagara Peninsula. So I went to Google maps and it was a whopping 6 minutes estimated longer drive from mid-St Catharines to Copps. And that doesn't include dealing with the lineup at the border going to Buffalo.

No offense to our American friends, but I also felt a lot safer parking in downtown Hamilton than I did in downtown Buffalo, and I'd also take Canadian beer over American beer any day.

 

[adsfan]

I haven't lived in Welland for quite a while, but when I did it was a little over an hour to get to Copps Coliseum from home and it was no more than 10 minutes less to get to the old Sabres arena because of the lineup at the border before a game (and afterward if we came straight home after the game). With a passport required now to cross the border by car, I would expect the border lineups to be slower now so the difference in drive time would likely be insignificant now.

St Catharines, of course, is the largest city and thus biggest sports market in the Niagara Peninsula. So I went to Google maps and it was a whopping 6 minutes estimated longer drive from mid-St Catharines to Copps. And that doesn't include dealing with the lineup at the border going to Buffalo.

No offense to our American friends, but I also felt a lot safer parking in downtown Hamilton than I did in downtown Buffalo, and I'd also take Canadian beer over American beer any day.

I am an American who would agree on both points, safety and beer!