JVR discussion thread - Stay - Go - Play ?

[HockeyAndWings]

That Kane contract also happened 7 years ago, not really going to set the standard for a deal in the 2018-2019 period

Regardless of time period, it will be difficult for the Leafs to give JVR anything more than 5M and Marner/Nylander 6M over an extended period.

 

[The CyNick]

You could make an argument that Tarasenko is overpaid considering he only had one good season by the end of his ELC. Other players like Patrick Kane who were younger when they came off 3 strong seasons at the end of their ELC and won a stanley cup, only signed a 6.3M contract for 5 years.

Marner and Nylander should get something in the 5.5-6M range over 6 years when you consider that players like Kane who were coming off stronger seasons only got a bit over 6M.

Senk is the best comparable because he's a top end player who RECENTLY signed a deal. The Kane deal that happened nearly a decade ago isn't relevant.

The mentality of young players seems to be let's get big money locked up ASAP. I don't see why a player with those stats would go "sure, I'll take $5M". It's just like how some people thought Lou wouldn't hand out tons of bonuses to Matthews, and then he got max bonuses. They may still end up signing cheaper deals, but if they do is because they drastically fell off next year.

 

[HockeyAndWings]

Senk is the best comparable because he's a top end player who RECENTLY signed a deal. The Kane deal that happened nearly a decade ago isn't relevant.

The mentality of young players seems to be let's get big money locked up ASAP. I don't see why a player with those stats would go "sure, I'll take $5M". It's just like how some people thought Lou wouldn't hand out tons of bonuses to Matthews, and then he got max bonuses. They may still end up signing cheaper deals, but if they do is because they drastically fell off next year.

If Tarasenko's contract is used as a reference a third of the Leaf's cap would be tied up into 3 players which is simply not affordable from a Leafs standpoint.

I would be very hesitant to give out the type of contract that Tarasenko got based on one good season. Tarasenko's contract was arguably premature and excessive. You could also argue that Tarasenko fell off significantly earlier at the beginning rather than later and doesn't deserve the contract that he received.

 

[Menzinger]

Regardless of time period, it will be difficult for the Leafs to give JVR anything more than 5M and Marner/Nylander 6M over an extended period.

The Leafs will be able to afford Matthews, Nylander and Marner all making big dollars (ie 7 million+ each). I agree that JVR though becomes an expensive luxury item then though

 

[Menzinger]

Senk is the best comparable because he's a top end player who RECENTLY signed a deal. The Kane deal that happened nearly a decade ago isn't relevant.

The mentality of young players seems to be let's get big money locked up ASAP. I don't see why a player with those stats would go "sure, I'll take $5M". It's just like how some people thought Lou wouldn't hand out tons of bonuses to Matthews, and then he got max bonuses. They may still end up signing cheaper deals, but if they do is because they drastically fell off next year.

That's how I see things.

Plus, you don't nickel and dime your star talent. Matthews is everything this franchise has been searching for since Sundin retired. Whatever he asks for Lous just has to smile and sign the papers.

 

[White Shadow]

If Tarasenko's contract is used as a reference a third of the Leaf's cap would be tied up into 3 players which is simply not affordable from a Leafs standpoint.

I would be very hesitant to give out the type of contract that Tarasenko got based on one good season. Tarasenko's contract was arguably premature and excessive. You could also argue that Tarasenko fell off significantly earlier at the beginning rather than later and doesn't deserve the contract that he received.

Seemed to work well for Chicago and Pittsburgh and there's 5 of the last 8 cups.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second paragraph. There really hasn't been anyone more consistent than him the last 3 seasons:

37 goals 36 assists 77 games
40 goals 34 assists 80 games
39 goals 36 assists 82 games

 

[The CyNick]

If Tarasenko's contract is used as a reference a third of the Leaf's cap would be tied up into 3 players which is simply not affordable from a Leafs standpoint.

I would be very hesitant to give out the type of contract that Tarasenko got based on one good season. Tarasenko's contract was arguably premature and excessive. You could also argue that Tarasenko fell off significantly earlier at the beginning rather than later and doesn't deserve the contract that he received.

But it's like saying I don't want to spend over a million dollars on a house in Toronto. Well great, you don't want to, but that's what houses go for, so if you don't want to spend that, either move to Sudbury or rent. But you won't get a house in Toronto.

 

[nuck]

That's how I see things.

Plus, you don't nickel and dime your star talent. Matthews is everything this franchise has been searching for since Sundin retired. Whatever he asks for Lous just has to smile and sign the papers.

There is a threshold. He won't command McDavid money (thanks Zach) but he will be above the money Tarasenko got.

 

[firstemperor]

5.5 AAV I'd be ok with but it depends on term.

I think he's an absolutely elite finisher and we'd sorely miss his dynamic if he were to leave.....but we just have other holes we need to fill. We also have a few guys in our system- Kappy/Leivo/Rychel that can maybe fill or partially fill his role moving forward at a fraction of the cost + deserve a shot down the line.

I still think theres a chance the cap explodes upward if the NHL can get a new US national TV deal like other major sport leagues so even 7m AAV could be a bargain if that occurs. (Unlikely right now).

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

4.5

We're going to have ~40 million locked up in Nylander(~6.5), Marner(~7), Matthews(~8), Rielly(5), Kadri(4.5), Zaitsev(~4.5), Andersen(5), and that's a group that needs another 2 top 4 defencemen as what do you do with Gardiner in a couple years? I'd rather keep Gardiner than JVR. Then you have to fill in around those guys with 5 top 9 wingers, Brown, Kap and others apart of that group will be at least 3, and then a 4th line(when everyone wants to sign Boyle for 2.5, already Martin for 2.5), and a bottom pair and backup goalie.

I love playoff JVR, I love regular JVR, but you can't afford to pay him market value and fill in other area with players other than off the scrap heap. If the choise is JVR and scrounge though ELC's and waivers or be able to pay some of your guys coming off ELC's 2-3 million every once in a while to keep them, I'll fill my group in with those guys instead of JVR and scraps.

If we're going to have another expensive winger besides for Marner I hope it's Kapanen after he breaks out.

that is an insult

 

[HockeyAndWings]

Seemed to work well for Chicago and Pittsburgh and there's 5 of the last 8 cups.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second paragraph. There really hasn't been anyone more consistent than him the last 3 seasons:
37 goals 36 assists 77 games
40 goals 34 assists 80 games
39 goals 36 assists 82 games

In the 2nd paragraph, I'm referring to Tarasenko's production before he signed his contract. There was a fall off in the performance in the first two years compared to his
3rd season.

If Matthews, Marner, and Nylander get their big pay day after their ELC's are up, I honestly don't know how the Leafs are going to afford these 3, once their big pay day contract expires, and they deserve an even bigger pay day.

 

[White Shadow]

In the 2nd paragraph, I'm referring to Tarasenko's production before he signed his contract. There was a fall off in the performance in the first two years compared to his
3rd season.

If Matthews, Marner, and Nylander get their big pay day after their ELC's are up, I honestly don't know how the Leafs are going to afford these 3, once their big pay day contract expires, and they deserve an even bigger pay day.

That's not falling off, that's improvement. Falling off is regressing, the opposite of what Sank did.

I think you're looking at their second contracts as bridge contracts. No one is thinking they will get top dollar on a 2 or 3 year deal. The numbers being thrown around would come with 8 year deals, taking them well into their UFA years.

 

[HockeyAndWings]

That's not falling off, that's improvement. Falling off is regressing, the opposite of what Sank did.

I think you're looking at their second contracts as bridge contracts. No one is thinking they will get top dollar on a 2 or 3 year deal. The numbers being thrown around would come with 8 year deals, taking them well into their UFA years.

I'm looking at their second contracts as 5 year contracts. On a long-term contract, the higher dollar amount makes sense. I think that's where the confusion lies.

 

[phillipmike]

Clearly you do not or you would not have ignored that very point was addressed in my third point.

I'm not sure how providing counter arguments to your weak claims is an overreaction.

Ok, for argument sake let's pretend your psychic knowledge of the term JVR demands is true. Can we not trade him later taking advantage of him for two more years?

Absolutely I expect us to try and lock up Matthews, our Franchise player, to an 8 year deal. Let's not pretend he and JVR are in the same situation.

The Marner and Nylander arguments are especially weak considering Marner is not a centre and has not played a significant percentage of his career as one. Nylander is very versatile and could be the solution but then you ignore the stated plan to move him to C.

Do you have any valid points to make?

You are the one who thinks JVR would sign for 3 years. Do you have any valid points? You didnt address anything; just making generalization that player "resent" being moved and "produce less effectively." What is that based on? Nylander moved from centre to RW; is he less effective? Marner moved. Hyman... Martin and even Rielly to accommodate injury. Players move if that is what is needed of them to help the team. This isnt a winger moving to defense or a goalie moving to centre. This is RW moving to LW. I have played hockey; i prefer to play RW but often moved to LW to help the team with lineup configuration. Its nothing new; happens all the time.

Relying or hoping JVR signs a 3 year deal is one dream but signing him in hopes to trade him a year or 2 later is another uneducated opinion. Just shows how completely oblivious you are to the market and what players of his caliber get in free agency. Backes, Okposo, Lucic, and Ladd all signed 5 year deals or more last off-season. JVR is at least better than Backes and Ladd and can be compared to Okposo and Lucic. In addition, all of those guys got No Movement Clauses (NMC) and modified No Trade Clauses (NTC). So holding out so you can sign JVR to a 3 year deal and trading him is very stupid.

Marner played centre for Knights but they moved him to RW but was drafted as a centre. Same with Leo, players can move from centre to wing or from one wing to another easily.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008490.html

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/mitch-marner-expects-to-play-centre-on-toronto-maple-leafs/

What's your argument for Hyman, Martin and Rielly playing different position?

This isnt putting a DH to catch in baseball or a point guard to play centre in basketball. This is putting a winger in the LW and RW roles. Its a difference but it is something that happens a lot.

So if the Leafs re-sign JVR as you want them to then that means Marner, Nylander, Brown and Kapenen are stuck at RW. Are you ok with one of Brown and Kapenen playing their entire career on the 4th line because that is their natural position? Or trading them because they would be stuck in the bottom 6? No you move them. Hyman and Nylander were centres but with Matthews, Bozak and Kadri there was no sense in putting those guys on the 4th line waste of their talents. So they moved them to other positions. The same will happen with one of Nylander, Marner, Brown and/or Kapenen. In all likelihood it is probably Kapenen or Brown.

 

[Goose]

I'm hoping if this playoff run goes well enough and leaves him wanting more / believing we are close that he would take enough of a discount to warrant keeping him.

As with other, in a vacuum I would pay him the money, but with our upcoming cap situation if he's $6+ for a long time we just can't really afford it.

 

[ShaneFalco]

JVR is a very good, not great player.
This is THE time to sell high on him to address other needs
Let's not forget how lazy, one-dimensional and uninspired he can be.

 

[therealkoho]

is it just me?

I know JvR has put the puck in the net a few times and good on him for doing so

but does it seem to anyone that he's not very engaged...I think he's taking too many low percentage shots when a better passing option is available

and his board play in his own end is atrocious, some by poor decisions and some because of a lack of will to engage and win battles

I know he's not necessarily that kind of player but this is the playoffs and he's gotta get on his horse

 

[TheDoldrums]

That entire line has been bad for a few games now.

 

[Morbo]

I know JvR has put the puck in the net a few times and good on him for doing so

but does it seem to anyone that he's not very engaged...I think he's taking too many low percentage shots when a better passing option is available

and his board play in his own end is atrocious, some by poor decisions and some because of a lack of will to engage and win battles

I know he's not necessarily that kind of player but this is the playoffs and he's gotta get on his horse

huh? he's totally that kind of player.

JVR is a lazy pansy.

a talented lazy pansy, but a lazy pansy nonetheless.

 

[realgoodleafs]

That's how he plays all the time. He skates around waiting for opportunities instead of creating them.

 

[Nooodles]

He's been like this pretty much his whole career. He has 2 games where he looks like a superstar and disappears the next 10.

edit: Imagine this guy with Hymans work ethic. Top 10 winger in the league. Such a shame he's just a lazy player. Great size, all the skill in the world, zero drive.

 

[therealkoho]

huh? he's totally that kind of player.

JVR is a lazy pansy.

a talented lazy pansy, but a lazy pansy nonetheless.

i did say

I know he's not necessarily that kind of player but this is the playoffs and he's gotta get on his horse

 

[CanadasTeam]

"Play Fast. Play Right"

Too bad JVR can only do one.

 

[Nithoniniel]

He usually gets more proactive in the playoffs but that hasn't been the case this time around. Bozak looks like a complete workhorse in comparison. He's been a disappointment.

 

[firstemperor]

He usually gets more proactive in the playoffs but that hasn't been the case this time around. Bozak looks like a complete workhorse in comparison. He's been a disappointment.

To me, bozak has been even worst and even more lazy in terms of closing on shooters or trying to win possession. The thing with bozak is he is even more lazy on the forecheck than Jvr which is saying something. Every time him and Jvr are on the ice, it feels like I'm watching a novel defensive scheme. As if Carlysle was telling them "hey it's ok if your hemmed in your own zone but keep everything towards the perimeter". I don't care what team you are,you give them enough offensive zone/possession time and mistakes will happen.

I thought Jvr looked engaged for the first couple of games of the series or so and even forechecks harder in general now than in the regular season but his coverages especially without the puck or trying to regain possession has been non-existent. The thing is it's a habitual instinctive thing for bozak and Jvr to be lazy at this point. The sad reality is that when Jvr is engaged he looks even better than he is now but it's rare and far between. You shouldn't need your coach to call you out to play your hardest and be at your best (like with babs during the west coast swing late in the year).