Player Discussion Jones signs 2 year extension

[duul]

Disagree. Larsson is underpaid for what he brings. 4M is nothing in today's cap world and Larsson is a legit top 4 Dman. Jones\Lagesson don't come close to what he brings defensively yet.
We like to rag on Larsson and Russell but just because they aren't producing offensively doesn't mean they are not a big part of our wins.

I disagree entirely.

I've gone through all the top teams in the league. It's no coincidence that the top teams standings-wise in the NHL also boast the highest scoring defensive corps'. Now you can say something like oh, shutdown defencemen are important still in your top 4. Statistically I don't think that holds up.

Washington top 4 D:

Carlson - 13
Orlov - 3
Kempny - 3
Gudas - 2

total: 21

Boston top 4 D:

Krug - 5
Mcavoy - 0
Chara - 5
Carlo - 4

total: 14

St. Louis top 4 D:

Pietrangelo - 12
Dunn - 7
Parayko - 2
Faulk - 4

total: 25

Edmonton top 4 D:

Klefbom - 5
Nurse - 4
Bear - 4
Larsson - 0

total: 13

As you can see, Boston and Edmonton are being absolutely carried by their 4 scorers who sit in the top 6 of NHL scoring. Similarly built teams that heavily rely on 2 or 3 players to carry them to victory, and just scraping by defensively.

Is it any coincidence the last two Stanley Cup champions also boast two of the highest scoring defensive groups? Halfway through the season...imagine if we added 8-10 goals from our blueline alone. How many extra wins does that end up being? 4? Imagine 4 more wins and 4 less losses. We would be dominating the pacific and have a playoff spot all but locked up at this point.

 

[Aerchon]

This is incorrect. Bouchard has not played as well as Jones in the AHL this year. Defensively or offensively.

When I see posts like this I get very curious.

From the few games I watched and reports I followed as well Jones was overhyped during his ahl stint.

His original brief first stint in the nhl was grossly overhyped.

This year most see him as is he is. Still a good prospect but not particularly great at anything. I think you trade him for Gustafsson, Schultz, Hunt, Osterle, or Marino just to name a few defensemen at "random".

For whatever reason they have keyed on him. He gets the press the hype etc... I hope for good reason but with the list above given up, I think skepticism is warranted.

Bouchard has gotten at least relatively comparable hype at a younger age. With a much better pedigree. Getting praise for improved defense and his numbers are improving as well. If Bouchard isn't playing "relatively" as well as Jones in the ahl to me that's disappointing for Bouchard's development.

In short. Please elaborate why you think Jones was better in the AHL. Do/Did you watch both of them regularly?

 

[MessierII]

When I see posts like this I get very curious.

From the few games I watched and reports I followed as well Jones was overhyped during his ahl stint.

His original brief first stint in the nhl was grossly overhyped.

This year most see him as is he is. Still a good prospect but not particularly great at anything. I think you trade him for Gustafsson, Schultz, Hunt, Osterle, or Marino just to name a few defensemen at "random".

For whatever reason they have keyed on him. He gets the press the hype etc... I hope for good reason but with the list above given up, I think skepticism is warranted.

Bouchard has gotten at least relatively comparable hype at a younger age. With a much better pedigree. Getting praise for improved defense and his numbers are improving as well. If Bouchard isn't playing "relatively" as well as Jones in the ahl to me that's disappointing for Bouchard's development.

In short. Please elaborate why you think Jones was better in the AHL. Do/Did you watch both of them regularly?

In that post I was only referring to this season. Jones was dominant at both ends of the ice in the AHL this year. It’s why he’s in the NHL right now. I do catch the occasional Bakersfield game and watch highlights of every game. Bouchard is having a great pro-rookie season and is way better than Jones was when he first turned pro but he’s not close to where Jones is at now.

 

[CupofOil]

Don't disagree with you.

My post was in reference to the posters here claiming he is a solid bottom pairing defenceman. I don't see that. I think he belongs in the AHL still. Lagesson is a way better fit on our bottom pairing WHEN Russell is gone. Jones doesn't have the defensive aptitude or the offensive ability to really fit anywhere in our lineup - yet. Even Matt Benning is a better fit on our bottom pairing, and I can't stand him as a player.

Nurse-Bear
Klefbom-Bouchard
Lagesson-Persson

Lots of rookies, but I think if we rid ourselves of Kris Russell and Adam Larsson to free up salary, this is our 6 best defencemen right now in the organization.

From here, you probably look to combine the salary you've saved in deals moving away from Russ and Lars, and bring in a top pairing guy - or you pray this is 'good enough' and use that extra cap space on winger depth.

Bouchard looks VERY good in the AHL right now. Significantly better than Jones. Persson looks great too, but we saw him struggle at the NHL level this year. I think bringing in a top pairing RHD somehow would fix everything. Then you move on from him in a couple years when Bouchard enters his prime. Sure would be nice if Jeff Petry was around right now...

I'm not sure how Caleb Jones, without significant improvement to his offensive prowess, finds his way into this lineup at all in the next decade. Do you? I mean, he plays some games right now ... but I think this was more of a look and see. Some potential there for sure, but man ... I think he is this organizations like...10th best guy? 11th? He's pretty far down the chart for me.

Nurse
Klefbom
Bouchard
Bear
Lagesson
Benning
Persson
Larsson
Russell
Jones?

Keep in mind he's not that young anymore. Reminds me a bit of the trap this fan base fell into with Marincin. At this point, you sort of have what you have...

First of all, and yes it was a small sample size, Lagesson looked completely overwhelmed in his 2 NHL games so I don't think he's a better fit for the team right now. The team needs swifter skating, puckmoving Dmen. Jones does that better than Lagesson.

Also, Bouchard is not a better AHL Dman than Jones. Jones was the best Dman on that team before the final call up. Bouchard still has lots of holes in his game that need to be ironed out before he's ready for full time NHL action. People see the fancy end to end rush and the PP goals and think he's dominating down there but the reality is that he still struggles mightily in his own end, namely with his awareness and positioning.
It's fine because he's still learning the pro game in his first full season but lets not get it twisted that he's a better AHL Dman than Jones right now.

 

[duul]

When I see posts like this I get very curious.

From the few games I watched and reports I followed as well Jones was overhyped during his ahl stint.

His original brief first stint in the nhl was grossly overhyped.

This year most see him as is he is. Still a good prospect but not particularly great at anything. I think you trade him for Gustafsson, Schultz, Hunt, Osterle, or Marino just to name a few defensemen at "random".

For whatever reason they have keyed on him. He gets the press the hype etc... I hope for good reason but with the list above given up, I think skepticism is warranted.

Bouchard has gotten at least relatively comparable hype at a younger age. With a much better pedigree. Getting praise for improved defense and his numbers are improving as well. If Bouchard isn't playing "relatively" as well as Jones in the ahl to me that's disappointing for Bouchard's development.

In short. Please elaborate why you think Jones was better in the AHL. Do/Did you watch both of them regularly?

Exactly...

Bouchard is putting up better numbers in his rookie AHL season than Jones ever has, the start of this year being his 4th season in that league. Bouchard is improving significantly as the year goes on, acclimating to a pro game.

 

[SwedishFire]

Not 100 percent sure how he fits in the big picture with the d-core going forward, but the price is right.

trade-able

 

[SwedishFire]

Dont know where he fits long term... I expected

Klefbom - Bouchard
Nurse - Bear
Russel - Benning

For next season

That third pair is the most expensive...

 

[Draiskull]

I disagree entirely.

I've gone through all the top teams in the league. It's no coincidence that the top teams standings-wise in the NHL also boast the highest scoring defensive corps'. Now you can say something like oh, shutdown defencemen are important still in your top 4. Statistically I don't think that holds up.

Washington top 4 D:

Carlson - 13
Orlov - 3
Kempny - 3
Gudas - 2

total: 21

Boston top 4 D:

Krug - 5
Mcavoy - 0
Chara - 5
Carlo - 4

total: 14

St. Louis top 4 D:

Pietrangelo - 12
Dunn - 7
Parayko - 2
Faulk - 4

total: 25

Edmonton top 4 D:

Klefbom - 5
Nurse - 4
Bear - 4
Larsson - 0

total: 13

As you can see, Boston and Edmonton are being absolutely carried by their 4 scorers who sit in the top 6 of NHL scoring. Similarly built teams that heavily rely on 2 or 3 players to carry them to victory, and just scraping by defensively.

Is it any coincidence the last two Stanley Cup champions also boast two of the highest scoring defensive groups? Halfway through the season...imagine if we added 8-10 goals from our blueline alone. How many extra wins does that end up being? 4? Imagine 4 more wins and 4 less losses. We would be dominating the pacific and have a playoff spot all but locked up at this point.

Yes, because the main job of a Dman is to score goals.
If Benning comes in and scores 4 goals should we make him our top 4 Dman? If TOR had Larsson instead of Barrie they would be winning a lot more games despite Barrie's offense. I bet if we called up Bouchard right now he could outproduce Bear, Nurse and Larsson. Doesn't make him the better Dman. Larsson is sheltering Bear right now despite it looking like the other way around. If we have a Larsson back in the old days to shelter Petry and Jultz, they might still be here instead of sinking.
Another factor to consider is that Oilers only use one Dman on the PP and despite being the top PP team don't get Dmen getting PP points.

 

[Draiskull]

That third pair is the most expensive...

probably wont be one Nurse and Bear get their next deals.

 

[Draiskull]

When I see posts like this I get very curious.

From the few games I watched and reports I followed as well Jones was overhyped during his ahl stint.

His original brief first stint in the nhl was grossly overhyped.

This year most see him as is he is. Still a good prospect but not particularly great at anything. I think you trade him for Gustafsson, Schultz, Hunt, Osterle, or Marino just to name a few defensemen at "random".

For whatever reason they have keyed on him. He gets the press the hype etc... I hope for good reason but with the list above given up, I think skepticism is warranted.

Bouchard has gotten at least relatively comparable hype at a younger age. With a much better pedigree. Getting praise for improved defense and his numbers are improving as well. If Bouchard isn't playing "relatively" as well as Jones in the ahl to me that's disappointing for Bouchard's development.

In short. Please elaborate why you think Jones was better in the AHL. Do/Did you watch both of them regularly?

Jones (and Bear) looked more polished in AHL because they had a 2 season lead on Bouchard. I agree that Jones is now too good for the AHL but it doesn't make him a better prospect than Bouchard.

 

[duul]

Yes, because the main job of a Dman is to score goals.
If Benning comes in and scores 4 goals should we make him our top 4 Dman? If TOR had Larsson instead of Barrie they would be winning a lot more games despite Barrie's offense. I bet if we called up Bouchard right now he could outproduce Bear, Nurse and Larsson. Doesn't make him the better Dman. Larsson is sheltering Bear right now despite it looking like the other way around. If we have a Larsson back in the old days to shelter Petry and Jultz, they might still be here instead of sinking.
Another factor to consider is that Oilers only use one Dman on the PP and despite being the top PP team don't get Dmen getting PP points.

This is old school thinking. If a teams entire defensive corps scores 0 goals the entire season, they will end up last in the league. If a teams entire defensive corps scores 20 goals each, they will be first in the league.

The league is at a point where being able to defend is ingrained in these kids from tyke. The systems are all similar, the players say so themselves. The role of a true shutdown defenceman is falling to the wayside. Chara is probably the best 'shutdown' defenceman in the game, and he still puts up more goals than basically all of our D.

Larsson makes horrific gaffes just as often as Jones, or Bear, or Nurse, or Klefbom. He isn't HELPING anyone. He is a detriment to the team when he's on the ice, not to mention Bear and Nurse play tons of 1st comp minutes...

 

[Aerchon]

In that post I was only referring to this season. Jones was dominant at both ends of the ice in the AHL this year. It’s why he’s in the NHL right now. I do catch the occasional Bakersfield game and watch highlights of every game. Bouchard is having a great pro-rookie season and is way better than Jones was when he first turned pro but he’s not close to where Jones is at now.

Exactly...

Bouchard is putting up better numbers in his rookie AHL season than Jones ever has, the start of this year being his 4th season in that league. Bouchard is improving significantly as the year goes on, acclimating to a pro game.

Jones (and Bear) looked more polished in AHL because they had a 2 season lead on Bouchard. I agree that Jones is now too good for the AHL but it doesn't make him a better prospect than Bouchard.

I guess for me the part I was missing is that Jones was playing "that" good in the AHL prior to being called up.

That and watching Bouchard in the nhl... I'm not seeing Jones now being much better than Bouchard 2 years ago in the nhl.

Optimistic I know but I would still be surprised and disappointed if Bouchard wasn't considerably better than Jones at the ahl/nhl level by the end of this year.

Jones really doesn't set the bar high from what I've seen/heard at the ahl/nhl pro level.

Jones obviously is a shadow compared to even Bear, as another easy example. Or even Benning with how good he has played.

Tons of time for Jones and he may end up great but as said, a rather low mark in my opinion for Bouchard from my very very limited viewing and reports.

 

[CupofOil]

Exactly...

Bouchard is putting up better numbers in his rookie AHL season than Jones ever has, the start of this year being his 4th season in that league. Bouchard is improving significantly as the year goes on, acclimating to a pro game.

This isn't true either. Jones was outproducing him this season and was scoring at a better pace than Bouchard currently is while being more sound defensively. He was their #1 Dman down there.

You'd expect him to be better than Bouchard in his 4th pro season compared to Bouchard's 2nd but make no mistake, Jones is a better AHL Dman currently.

 

[SwedishFire]

probably wont be one Nurse and Bear get their next deals.

I think one of Russell o Benning should be traded, and I think that decides if Russell has a good or bad playoff. Veterans are valued to step it up, and show the way once playoff starts.
If Benning play relieable once in playoff, he stays.

I prefer Benning, as younger and cheaper, stays. He has a good hot once he use it to add.

 

[McDNicks17]

I think he'll be the #7D going into next season.

I know most of us want to move Russell, but I get the feeling the organization loves him and he loves it here. He'd use his 15 team NTC to make a trade as tough as possible if it came to that too, IMO.

 

[MessierII]

I guess for me the part I was missing is that Jones was playing "that" good in the AHL prior to being called up.

That and watching Bouchard in the nhl... I'm not seeing Jones now being much better than Bouchard 2 years ago in the nhl.

Optimistic I know but I would still be surprised and disappointed if Bouchard wasn't considerably better than Jones at the ahl/nhl level by the end of this year.

Jones really doesn't set the bar high from what I've seen/heard at the ahl/nhl pro level.

Jones obviously is a shadow compared to even Bear, as another easy example. Or even Benning with how good he has played.

Tons of time for Jones and he may end up great but as said, a rather low mark in my opinion for Bouchard from my very very limited viewing and reports.

Bouchard had 1 point and was -5 in just 7 games. Jones is distinctly better than that now. Especially defensively.

 

[Draiskull]

I guess for me the part I was missing is that Jones was playing "that" good in the AHL prior to being called up.

That and watching Bouchard in the nhl... I'm not seeing Jones now being much better than Bouchard 2 years ago in the nhl.

Optimistic I know but I would still be surprised and disappointed if Bouchard wasn't considerably better than Jones at the ahl/nhl level by the end of this year.

Jones really doesn't set the bar high from what I've seen/heard at the ahl/nhl pro level.

Jones obviously is a shadow compared to even Bear, as another easy example. Or even Benning with how good he has played.

Tons of time for Jones and he may end up great but as said, a rather low mark in my opinion for Bouchard from my very very limited viewing and reports.

Jones is getting 'shadow' money as well. He was on par if not better than Bear last year and could still break out. Right now he is a 12min #6\#7 fringe NHL Dman\ top pairing AHL Dman. His deal reflects that.

 

[Draiskull]

I think one of Russell o Benning should be traded, and I think that decides if Russell has a good or bad playoff. Veterans are valued to step it up, and show the way once playoff starts.
If Benning play relieable once in playoff, he stays.

I prefer Benning, as younger and cheaper, stays. He has a good hot once he use it to add.

I am okay with whatever the organization prefers. They would know more about who carries who in a pairing. I think Russell is liked because he does a lot of small things right which helps the team win. Benning certainly has better tools.

 

[SwedishFire]

I am okay with whatever the organization prefers. They would know more about who carries who in a pairing. I think Russell is liked because he does a lot of small things right which helps the team win. Benning certainly has better tools.

Yes, something like this. I agree on this part.
We have a ton of defensive prospects, but the big defensive brick. Larsson has had a though time - he is just not good enough. A hard hitter, Ok on skates - no more than that, and is his confidence decides how he plays.

We should traded Granlund, Jurco (the org. has grow tired of him I think), Larsson, Khaira for anything that could give this rooster and upgrade in the iced line-up, no matter if it is a 4th liner,even if the need is largest on 1 st line winger. What matters is if he is good at hockey, actual talent.

The question is, if Holland get an offer from a non playoff team - a winger for the Oilers 1st rounder. Should he do it?

 

[Nostradumbass]

good post, but how is trading Larsson a high risk move? Because of our lack of natural RHD?

Because of our lack of natural NHL defense men.

 

[nabob]

Because of our lack of natural NHL defense men.

Klefbom, Nurse, Benning, Russell, Bear, Jones, Larsson, with Bouchard and Lagesson primed to be on the club next year.

Dollars vs play Larsson has been our least effective Dman for over two years.

 

[ImmuneEH]

Series of moves I'm leaning towards

• Let Larsson finish the year with the team, hopefully he builds his value the remaining half of the season and, fingers crossed, through the post-season.
• Get rid of Russell's contract... it will probably require a little bit of retention. I'd even take on an ugly contract that had 1 year remaining which fills a hole on the roster (3C, middle 6 winger).
• Trade Larsson at the draft for a 2020 1st.
• Package JP + a 2020 2nd for a winger with top 6 upside.
• If we can't get Bear in the range of $4.5 on a long-term deal, give him a bridge deal.
• If we can't get Nurse for less than $6.5 on a long-term deal I just start shopping him honestly.

What would make a JP deal worth it?
Assuming this isn't a trade deadline deal
1. I'd consider packaging him to move up in this strong draft (under the right circumstances).
2. Getting a young, unproven prospect with top 6 upside. Not too many names come to mind. Mittelstadt would be nice, but I think Buffalo only considers it if they miss the post-season and become desperate. Vesalainen is another name.
3. Getting an NHL forward with top 6 upside who, for one reason or another, hasn't quite cracked the top 6 of their current team. Last year Burakovsky was such a guy. Roslovic & Athanasiou come to mind.

Athanasiou/McDavid/Kassian
Nuge/Draisaitl/Yamamoto
Benson/sign a 3C/Neal
Khaira/Sheahan/Chiasson
Nygard/?

Nurse/Bear
Klefbomb/(Bouchard or Persson)
Jones/Benning
Lagesson

[Edit: Meant to post in rumours & proposals]

 

[LMFAO]

That third pair is the most expensive...

Nurse will be making 6-7M Bear roughly 2.5m...

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Nurse will be making 6-7M Bear roughly 2.5m...

That's a pretty rosy prediction.

 

[ujju2]

That's a pretty rosy prediction.

It's certainly low for Bear, but Nurse isn't worth any more than 6 imo.