Player Discussion Jonathan Drouin II

[Thebesthockey]

I didn’t even mention Drouin in my post. So I’m not trying to convince anyone anything about him.

Im only stating that Sergachev has been poor this year, many of their fans no have doubts about him becoming a top pairing D and that if he played for us the way he’s played for them all year, the majority of posters on these boards would be calling a waste of a high pick.

fair enough
but its 1/4 into his second season
and if he ends up producing like last year
he would again top pretty much all of the habs blue line ( except maybe petry)

 

[Thebesthockey]

Sergachev is far from being a lock at becoming a top pairing D-man. Drouin is playing like a 1LW right now, at this point we are winning this trade, let’s revisit this in a couple of seasons.

sure revisit again not just 20 games in

as for last year no contest serg >>> drouin hands down

 

[Cobra Commander]

are you trying to convince based on drouin track record
he has proved nothing to date
already in one rookie season sergachev has proven more upside than D has in last 4 yrs of attempts

No, let’s give credit were credit is due. Drouin is producing very well right now, and still has room to improve. He is doing so because he is being placed in a position to succeed, unlike last season. Sergachev was put into a very good position to succeed last season and he did, it’s not so easy for him this season and he has been struggling.

Don’t forget Drouin’s playoff run in his rookie season, 14 points in 17 games.

 

[Cobra Commander]

sure revisit again not just 20 games in

as for last year no contest serg >>> drouin hands down

Last season sure, but why live in the past. This season Drouin >>> Serg

 

[Thebesthockey]

No, let’s give credit were credit is due. Drouin is producing very well right now, and still has room to improve. He is doing so because he is being placed in a position to succeed, unlike last season. Sergachev was put into a very good position to succeed last season and he did, it’s not so easy for him this season and he has been struggling.

i am challenging the trade
when your nhl blue line makes ECHL blue line look good ...with limited if any 1D prospects in the pipeline in next 2-3 yrs you know its bad and going to get worse

this will have a rebound effect on carey price with 7 yrs left on unmoveable contract

add you lost in another trade another young 1D Stud

so yes i guess not thrilled with this trade/player

 

[Cobra Commander]

i am challenging the trade
when your nhl blue line makes ECHL blue line look good ...with limited if any 1D prospects in the pipeline in next 2-3 yrs you know its bad and going to get worse

this will have a rebound effect on carey price with 7 yrs left on unmoveable contract

add you lost in another trade another young 1D Stud

so yes i guess not thrilled with this trade/player

Sergachev is far from being a 1D Stud right now. We will see in the future if he figures his game out. Right now Sergachev is playing like a 5-6D.

Don’t worry, we have some very nice D prospects coming up next season. Probably a real 1D man in there.

 

[Thebesthockey]

Sergachev is far from being a 1D Stud right now. We will see in the future if he figures his game out. Right now Sergachev is playing like a 5-6D.

Don’t worry, we have some very nice D prospects coming up next season. Probably a real 1D man in there.

next year
really ?

 

[Mister Hab]

No, let’s give credit were credit is due. Drouin is producing very well right now, and still has room to improve. He is doing so because he is being placed in a position to succeed, unlike last season. Sergachev was put into a very good position to succeed last season and he did, it’s not so easy for him this season and he has been struggling.

Don’t forget Drouin’s playoff run in his rookie season, 14 points in 17 games.

Yup. Drouin was awesome in those playoffs...Tampa reached the Stanley Cup Finals (plus Stamkos was injured the whole time, I think). At the time I thought our Habs would never be able to get Drouin (due to his value going UP or WAY UP after that). If we make the playoffs...Drouin should be our no.1 or no.2 playoff point getter. You keep that.

Our young d-core (+ maybe a top 20 pick overall dman in 2019): Noah Juulsen, Victor Mete, Josh Brook, Cale Fleury...not looking bad at all. I liked Sergachev's offensive potential, but doubt his defensive game.

 

[The Great Weal]

Last season sure, but why live in the past. This season Drouin >>> Serg

Sergachev at 19>Drouin at 19
Sergachev at 20>Drouin at 20

One plays defense, the other plays wings

 

[CalgarySnow]

For the love of god stop comparing a sophomore d man of 20 with a 4 (?) season winger of 24 and a PMD (Subban) with SAH d man (Weber). They are diffferent people at different stages of their careers. At the end of their careers fine look back and decide if we won or lost the trades. Sick of the comparing, for the sake of this thread we got Drouin and he is what he is, too inconsistent with some bonehead moves to please everyone

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Sergachev at 19>Drouin at 19
Sergachev at 20>Drouin at 20

One plays defense, the other plays wings

ya no Drouin had 14 pts in 17 playoff games that year
Sergachev this year has 0 goals and 7 assists in 22 games, and isn't looking any better defensively

 

[The Great Weal]

ya no Drouin had 14 pts in 17 playoff games that year
Sergachev this year has 0 goals and 7 assists in 22 games, and isn't looking any better defensively

Drouin was also in the AHL that year.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Drouin was also in the AHL that year.

So? If he produced when in NHL that's what counts.

Either way, comparing players at same age is a weird exercise.

DSP>Byron at same age for example...who cares?

I've glanced at the TB's usage of Sergachev and even with Hedman out Sergachev was practically playing #6 d-man minutes. There was very appetite to move him up. If the argument is being them being patient it still doesn't explain why he couldn't even fill in a bit more. Besides, they weren't patient with Brayden Point and other guys.

They are being really patient with him because he has a lot of defensive issues. We'll see what happens.

 

[The Great Weal]

So? If he produced when in NHL that's what counts.

Either way, comparing players at same age is a weird exercise.

DSP>Byron at same age for example...who cares?

I've glanced at the TB's usage of Sergachev and even with Hedman out Sergachev was practically playing #6 d-man minutes. There was very appetite to move him up. If the argument is being them being patient it still doesn't explain why he couldn't even fill in a bit more. Besides, they weren't patient with Brayden Point and other guys.

They are being really patient with him because he has a lot of defensive issues. We'll see what happens.

Right, but he has yet to show that he can produce 60 points in the NHL.

It's only a weird excuse if we discredit everything they have done that was significant in the NHL. You can't judge Sergachevs 2nd year in the NHL compared to Drouins 5th. They are both 23 and under, so the DSP and Byron comparison is not valid imo.

Like I said, sophomore slumps happen and defense is one of the hardest positions to learn.

 

[BaseballCoach]

So? If he produced when in NHL that's what counts.

Either way, comparing players at same age is a weird exercise.

DSP>Byron at same age for example...who cares?

I've glanced at the TB's usage of Sergachev and even with Hedman out Sergachev was practically playing #6 d-man minutes. There was very appetite to move him up. If the argument is being them being patient it still doesn't explain why he couldn't even fill in a bit more. Besides, they weren't patient with Brayden Point and other guys.

They are being really patient with him because he has a lot of defensive issues. We'll see what happens.

He is still very young, so we can't write him off as a potential Norris candidate in the future, but his career so far has seen me reduce the odds of that result a bit. I do have some concerns about his hockey IQ. He may end up more like Sheldon Souray than Chris Pronger. Or, maybe he figures it all out in the next year or two.

We shall see.

The trade certainly no longer looks like the unmitigated disaster it seemed to me like it was a year ago.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Right, but he has yet to show that he can produce 60 points in the NHL.

It's only a weird excuse if we discredit everything they have done that was significant in the NHL. You can't judge Sergachevs 2nd year in the NHL compared to Drouins 5th. They are both 23 and under, so the DSP and Byron comparison is not valid imo.

Like I said, sophomore slumps happen and defense is one of the hardest positions to learn.

You do realize Tampa Bay is a powerhouse right? While in some ways that will push a guy down the line up it should also avoid the need for overly sheltering someone as their linemates would be very competent to handle any shortcomings.

At this point in time however he is 2nd out of all TB d-men in total PP TOI this season, only 3 D men seem to play the PP at all, he's one of them.

He's 6th in EV TOI/GP and doesn't play PK.

The only D-man he's beaten in points is Dan Girardi who is a shutdown type.

It's early but this isn't looking like a year where he's building up his resume. He's being sheltered and not really doing much with it either.

He absolutely will improve but the tag of "future Norris winner" some had are beginning to look like wishful thinking. We'll see where he ends up and I think a solid top 4 D is very likely and top pairing potential is very possible but it will take some improvement in his all around game this year and the next to retain that potential.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

He is still very young, so we can't write him off as a potential Norris candidate in the future, but his career so far has seen me reduce the odds of that result a bit. I do have some concerns about his hockey IQ. He may end up more like Sheldon Souray than Chris Pronger. Or, maybe he figures it all out in the next year or two.

We shall see.

The trade certainly no longer looks like the unmitigated disaster it seemed to me like it was a year ago.

The trade is still bad because of the context around it. We had a playmaking winger already.

Radulov at 7 mil(lets say) + Sergachev > Drouin.

That simple, and I like Drouin.

 

[BaseballCoach]

The trade is still bad because of the context around it. We had a playmaking winger already.

Radulov at 7 mil(lets say) + Sergachev > Drouin.

That simple, and I like Drouin.

One problem with this equation is that it required a lot more spending. But if the spending was justified, and we know we had the room, we should have re-signed Radulov even after the trade.

A second problem is that Radulov is almost 9 years older than Drouin. There is something to be said for acquiring a top-6 forward, a recent #3 overall pick, who was 22 years old at the time. I get that the price was high, and it may still turn out that it was too high, but clearly it was poor planning to keep $9M of cap space and not get some good D with that money.

 

[DAChampion]

One problem with this equation is that it required a lot more spending. But if the spending was justified, and we know we had the room, we should have re-signed Radulov even after the trade.

A second problem is that Radulov is almost 9 years older than Drouin. There is something to be said for acquiring a top-6 forward, a recent #3 overall pick, who was 22 years old at the time. I get that the price was high, and it may still turn out that it was too high, but clearly it was poor planning to keep $9M of cap space and not get some good D with that money.

On the one hand, having Radulov+Sergachev is certainly better than having Drouin, by a substantial margin.

On the other hand, sometimes things work out in life. The actual comparison is Radulov+Sergachev+(Martin Kaut?) versus Drouin+Kotkaniemi+other small changes due to a tanking year.

It's not what Bergevin was trying to do, but it is what I wanted the Habs to do as a pro-tank advocate, so I'm content with the outcome. IMO, Kotkaniemi is the most valuable of the relevant players.

And in fairness to anti-tank advocates such as yourself, the equation could easily look much worse if the Habs had lost the lottery, and drafted Evan Bouchard or whoever instead of Kotkaniemi.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Sergachev at 19>Drouin at 19
Sergachev at 20>Drouin at 20

One plays defense, the other plays wings

Last pairing D and the other plays top 6 forward. Sergachev is no better in his own end than Schlemko is. We all know he is talented but he has to be consistent and improve in his own end. This is why Tampa has him on the 3rd pairing. However, we all know how talented Drouin is as well... or at least we should treat him with the same hope people have with Sergachev.

Age 19:
- Sergachev played 79 games with 40 pts
- Drouin played 70 games with 32 pts.
* Edge to Sergachev

Age 20:
- Sergachev has played 22 games so far with 7 pts (Prorated to 26 pts)
- Drouin played 21 games with 10 pts but had 14 pts in 17 playoff games.
* Edge to Drouin due to playing very well in the playoffs? Can Sergachev match this type of season?

Age 21:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 73 games with 53 pts
* Sergachev would need to play top 4D and get another 40+ season to match him IMO.

Age 22:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 77 games with 46 pts on a very bad team where he was playing center
* By this point in time for Sergachev, we have to assume he is the guy people predict him to be today right?

Age 23:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin has played 22 games with 18 pts playing with Domi for the most part (prorated to 71 pts)
* Lets see how this season unfolds for Drouin and what Sergachev ends up doing.

Said it before and will say it again. Both teams got a very good talent. It's likely going to be a close evaluation between these two. Circumstance of who these players play with also plays a factor.

 

[The Great Weal]

You do realize Tampa Bay is a powerhouse right? While in some ways that will push a guy down the line up it should also avoid the need for overly sheltering someone as their linemates would be very competent to handle any shortcomings.

At this point in time however he is 2nd out of all TB d-men in total PP TOI this season, only 3 D men seem to play the PP at all, he's one of them.

He's 6th in EV TOI/GP and doesn't play PK.

The only D-man he's beaten in points is Dan Girardi who is a shutdown type.

It's early but this isn't looking like a year where he's building up his resume. He's being sheltered and not really doing much with it either.

He absolutely will improve but the tag of "future Norris winner" some had are beginning to look like wishful thinking. We'll see where he ends up and I think a solid top 4 D is very likely and top pairing potential is very possible but it will take some improvement in his all around game this year and the next to retain that potential.

You do know that Drouin also played on a good Tampa team right?

Like I said, sophomore slumps do happen, I mean Drouin wasn't even PPG in the AHL at Sergachevs age.

I do agree that he need to be better defensively before being considered a top pairing dman. It's been an issue since junior.

 

[cphabs]

next year
really ?

Ya, he’ll be 25 and in his prime!

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Tearing a down a Dman who is still in an early stage of maturation is some level of hilarious. Sergachev could be an early bloomer, or he really could be the next superstar. But how about waiting until he's 22 to put out a final verdict. A lot of other defensemen are still in the AHL at his age.

 

[cphabs]

Last pairing D and the other plays top 6 forward. Sergachev is no better in his own end than Schlemko is. We all know he is talented but he has to be consistent and improve in his own end. This is why Tampa has him on the 3rd pairing. However, we all know how talented Drouin is as well... or at least we should treat him with the same hope people have with Sergachev.

Age 19:
- Sergachev played 79 games with 40 pts
- Drouin played 70 games with 32 pts.
* Edge to Sergachev

Age 20:
- Sergachev has played 22 games so far with 7 pts (Prorated to 26 pts)
- Drouin played 21 games with 10 pts but had 14 pts in 17 playoff games.
* Edge to Drouin due to playing very well in the playoffs? Can Sergachev match this type of season?

Age 21:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 73 games with 53 pts
* Sergachev would need to play top 4D and get another 40+ season to match him IMO.

Age 22:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 77 games with 46 pts on a very bad team where he was playing center
* By this point in time for Sergachev, we have to assume he is the guy people predict him to be today right?

Age 23:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin has played 22 games with 18 pts playing with Domi for the most part (prorated to 71 pts)
* Lets see how this season unfolds for Drouin and what Sergachev ends up doing.

Said it before and will say it again. Both teams got a very good talent. It's likely going to be a close evaluation between these two. Circumstance of who these players play with also plays a factor.

You realize that you are comparing “point” totals of a 24 year old forward to that of a 20 year old defenseman... right?

 

[The Great Weal]

Last pairing D and the other plays top 6 forward. Sergachev is no better in his own end than Schlemko is. We all know he is talented but he has to be consistent and improve in his own end. This is why Tampa has him on the 3rd pairing. However, we all know how talented Drouin is as well... or at least we should treat him with the same hope people have with Sergachev.

The last pairing d almost outscored the top 6 forward last year. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Sergachev is also 20 year old and he would be light years ahead of any current LHD. I don't agree that we should be treating Drouin and Sergachev the same. Drouin is now 23 and is playing wing. Sergachev is 20 and is playing defense. 2 very different cases imo.

Age 19:
- Sergachev played 79 games with 40 pts
- Drouin played 70 games with 32 pts.
* Edge to Sergachev

I'd say considerable edge to Sergachev. Sergachev had a historic U20 performance.

Age 20:
- Sergachev has played 22 games so far with 7 pts (Prorated to 26 pts)
- Drouin played 21 games with 10 pts but had 14 pts in 17 playoff games.
* Edge to Drouin due to playing very well in the playoffs? Can Sergachev match this type of season?

I don't think it would be edge to Drouin. A 17 game sample shouldn't set how his season went. You do know that he also had a 17 game sample where he had 13 points in the AHL right? You can't use one and ignore the other.

Age 21:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 73 games with 53 pts
* Sergachev would need to play top 4D and get another 40+ season to match him IMO.

And why is that? One plays wing and the other plays defense. If Sergachev greatly improves his defensive game and scores 35 points, I'd give him the edge.

Age 22:
- Sergachev ???
- Drouin played 77 games with 46 pts on a very bad team where he was playing center
* By this point in time for Sergachev, we have to assume he is the guy people predict him to be today right?

We can say the same thing about Drouin. People today are still saying how Drouin can break out at 23 playing the far easier position.

Said it before and will say it again. Both teams got a very good talent. It's likely going to be a close evaluation between these two. Circumstance of who these players play with also plays a factor.

It definitely still is too early to say who won and lost the trade, we will see what happens.