Jokerit 2018-2019 - I Am, We Are!

[Jussi]

The current TV deal expires in 2024 I believe, and for the next deal it would be rather beneficial for the existing Liiga teams (except those bottom-dwellers) to reduce the size as well as get Jokerit on board before it. Sure this would still allow one season in Mestis if Jokerit leaves the KHL in 2022, but I'm not convinced that such arrangement genuinely benefits anyone. It could also endanger the future of Jokerit at Hartwall Areena as it is not feasible to play Mestis there.

If the Helsinki Garden is finished by then, I could see them moving there. It won't be a HIFK owned arena so they wouldn't mind. Would take the burden of Hartwall Arena away from the club. Or they could easily play Mestis at the Ice Hall, fans would be allover that as a temporary measure. The older fans have such fond memories of Jokerit games and the atmosphere there.

 

[Jussi]

How many positive/neutral/negative news about Jokerit/KHL have been published in the Finnish press since the Jokerit´s presser in June 2013? How many positive/neutral/negative news about Hartwall´s arena/Jokerit owners have been published in the Finnish press since the Jokerit´s presser in June 2013?

I wasn't sure if you were referring to the attendance figures. Anyway, as I said, that process would take too long and resources which I don't have (some major daily papers are behind a paywall now). As I said, some major Finnish media would have to do that research. Also, it's quite frankly an issue I am not going to spend the time required.

 

[vorky]

The current TV deal expires in 2024 I believe, and for the next deal it would be rather beneficial for the existing Liiga teams (except those bottom-dwellers) to reduce the size as well as get Jokerit on board before it. Sure this would still allow one season in Mestis if Jokerit leaves the KHL in 2022, but I'm not convinced that such arrangement genuinely benefits anyone. It could also endanger the future of Jokerit at Hartwall Areena as it is not feasible to play Mestis there.

I have just one question for you. And I can imagine your reply. So, do you believe Jokerit leaves the KHL anytime soon? The clubs extended the agreement with the KHL for 5 years if I remember. This kind of deals signal that a club has a big value for the KHL. Why would the league want to lose the team? Jokerit is the most valuable KHL team right now, covering Finland, Sweden, Denmark (TV deal). Jokerit is among 3 top clubs whose games are broadcasted outside Russia. Again, Jokerit keeps playing the KHL. Yes, Jussi will keep telling us about bad economics, his jatkoaika sources, unhappy Jokerit fans and all his fantasies. But that does not mean Jokerit will ever consider coming back to the Liiga.

Just one note, look at the KHL Board of Directors. Jokerit is a sole expansion team having a Board member. That says a lot.

These talks about Jokerit coming back to the Liiga are pointless.

 

[Albatros]

Jokerit's attendance is lower this season than it was during the last Liiga seasons IIRC. They've barely had any home games over 10k.

I doubt that this season will be fundamentally different to the previous ones, last season Tolvanen brought a boost surely but also the very difficult one before their numbers were no worse than in Liiga. At worst this will be similar. Last ten:

2008/09 8456 Liiga
2009/10 8295 Liiga
2010/11 8490 Liiga
2011/12 9173 Liiga
2012/13 9828 Liiga
2013/14 9252 Liiga
2014/15 10932 KHL
2015/16 10468 KHL
2016/17 9610 KHL
2017/18 10415 KHL

The Helsinki Ice Hall is pretty garbage so that clearly drags the attendance down. When they finally get a new arena, it wouldn't surprise me if they were close to 10k average. And Jokerit has/had (if we compare by Liiga standards) a more passionate following. HIFK has a lot of fans, but fewer of those are people that actually regularly go to the games.

A new arena provides a temporary boost pretty much guaranteed, but ultimately they'll have to upgrade the product if they want to keep it going. Jokerit had a few years of 10k+ after their arena was opened, but ultimately failed in taking the next step as an organization and so their attendances sank year after year until it was close to what it had been in the old barn. I think that's almost inevitably going to be the case in several other cities like Tampere and Turku as well, perhaps HIFK will master the transition better.

They wouldn't be let back that easily considering the "damage" they did to Liiga. And I'm actually a bit worried about the arena situation with the Russian ownership if Jokerit ever were to leave the KHL. They might also want Jokerit to suffer a bit for leaving the league.

If Jokerit leaves it's their call as investors really, so I don't foresee any hard feelings. But also no money for Mestis hockey in their arena, whoever takes over has to be ready for it from day one.

Of course it's another thing if Harkimo sells the team to someone desperate to get Jokerit back to Liiga as soon as possible, but I doubt that has any real chance of happening. They'll stay until the Russians stop paying the bills.

 

[Albatros]

I have just one question for you. And I can imagine your reply. So, do you believe Jokerit leaves the KHL anytime soon?

I think in 2022 there's a good chance, but it depends also on things that neither Jokerit nor the KHL can influence. Difficulties in the operational environment that exist today couldn't be foreseen when they joined, and if these problems prove persistent then I think Jokerit will depart soon-ish like exactly when the current deal expires in 2022.

 

[vorky]

I think in 2022 there's a good chance, but it depends also on things that neither Jokerit nor the KHL can influence. Difficulties in the operational environment that exist today couldn't be foreseen when they joined, and if these problems prove persistent then I think Jokerit will depart soon-ish like exactly when the current deal expires in 2022.

That is your opinion. I have a few reasons to disagree. You can prove that I am wrong.

Yes, the operational environment that exist today couldn't be foreseen when they joined. True. On the other hand, the worst period (2014-2015) is behind us. Yes, we never know, but there are clear signals for my words.

The KHL has survived the most difficult period (2014-2015 or 2016). Jokerit has survived it as well. The league is in the best shape ever. There are plans for a recovery of clubs, the financial recovery. There is a job being made to decrease costs and increase revenues. As you know, clubs revenues have increased this season comparing to the last one. Yes, we need to wait for the end of the season. The trend is clear.

The league wants to have clubs in markets which bringing revenues. Jokerit´s market is one of the best in the league. Why should the KHL want to lose the market? Yes, if there is a global catastrophe ... even NHL would have a problem.

As of now, I do not see a single reason for Jokerit´s departure.

 

[Jussi]

Yes, the operational environment that exist today couldn't be foreseen when they joined. True. On the other hand, the worst period (2014-2015) is behind us. Yes, we never know, but there are clear signals for my words.

The operational environment is directly tied to political events and if you really think things are getting better, you haven't been paying attention to the news lately. It's not getting better. Jokerit are constantly experiencing new problems due to the Russian owners, salary payment issues rose last season. It's an even bigger issue for Harkimo as any association to people on sanctions lists will hurt his political career. He has zero chance of getting any cabinet position, if his new party even gets to the parliament in the first place. Even though he's been adamant that the new owner has to be Finnish (because he admits that if not, it would be hard to keep fans on board anymore), the club is so tainted that he might have to sell to foreign owner or continue as owner and forget his political ambitions.

 

[Jussi]

I doubt that this season will be fundamentally different to the previous ones, last season Tolvanen brought a boost surely but also the very difficult one before their numbers were no worse than in Liiga. At worst this will be similar. Last ten:

2008/09 8456 Liiga
2009/10 8295 Liiga
2010/11 8490 Liiga
2011/12 9173 Liiga
2012/13 9828 Liiga
2013/14 9252 Liiga
2014/15 10932 KHL
2015/16 10468 KHL
2016/17 9610 KHL
2017/18 10415 KHL



A new arena provides a temporary boost pretty much guaranteed, but ultimately they'll have to upgrade the product if they want to keep it going. Jokerit had a few years of 10k+ after their arena was opened, but ultimately failed in taking the next step as an organization and so their attendances sank year after year until it was close to what it had been in the old barn. I think that's almost inevitably going to be the case in several other cities like Tampere and Turku as well, perhaps HIFK will master the transition better.

Worth also noting that there's a spike in the average attendance from the outdoor games. But in general, attendance dropped because Jokerit were a mess after the 2002 title. Teams were poorly built, juniors were often neglected despite obvious talent, coaches were poorly picked and the front office in general was lacking compared to other Liiga teams. It's no wonder people didn't bother showing up. Kekäläinen improved many areas while he was there but he didn't get to complete his work. If there's one other area affecting attendances , it was marketing. KHL-Jokerit have been remarkably better in that area compared to pre- and post-Kekäläinen eras. Though I hear since the head of marketing left for another job, there's been some question marks raised by Jokerit fans at Jatkoaika if it's up to par now.

 

[Exarz]

I doubt that this season will be fundamentally different to the previous ones, last season Tolvanen brought a boost surely but also the very difficult one before their numbers were no worse than in Liiga. At worst this will be similar. Last ten:

2008/09 8456 Liiga
2009/10 8295 Liiga
2010/11 8490 Liiga
2011/12 9173 Liiga
2012/13 9828 Liiga
2013/14 9252 Liiga
2014/15 10932 KHL
2015/16 10468 KHL
2016/17 9610 KHL
2017/18 10415 KHL

As of right now, Jokerit's average attendance is 8359 with 12 home games left of the regular season and they might be able to reach 9000 depending on the playoff outcome.

However it is worth mentioning that both Sweden and Finland are suffering from attendance drops in hockey (I don't know how it is in the rest of Europe) so it's a general trend that attendances are lower.

 

[Exarz]

Herrojen valheet: Harry Harkimon viimeiseksi työnäytteeksi Jokereissa jää palturi Suomi-kiekon auttamisesta

Interesting (critical) article about about the promises that was made about Jokerit when they joined the KHL, and what the statistics are showing.

 

[vorky]

Herrojen valheet: Harry Harkimon viimeiseksi työnäytteeksi Jokereissa jää palturi Suomi-kiekon auttamisesta

Interesting (critical) article about about the promises that was made about Jokerit when they joined the KHL, and what the statistics are showing.

May you sum it up?

 

[Jussi]

Herrojen valheet: Harry Harkimon viimeiseksi työnäytteeksi Jokereissa jää palturi Suomi-kiekon auttamisesta

Interesting (critical) article about about the promises that was made about Jokerit when they joined the KHL, and what the statistics are showing.

In the category of not-even-surprising-to-Mietaa, he also walked back again on his word of selling the club before Christmas. One Jatkoaika poster summed it up perfectly:

21.4.2018 "Myyn Jokerit ennen kuin uusi kausi alkaa" -Hjallis Harkimo
11.8.2018 "Syksyn aikana myyn Jokerit" -Hjallis Harkimo
26.10.2018 " Ennen vuodenvaihdetta kaupat varmaan tapahtuu" -Hjallis Harkimo
14.11.2018 "Ennen kuin joulupukki tulee, te tiedätte, kuka mun tilalle tulee Jokereihin" -Hjallis Harkimo
16.12.2018 "Vielä en pysty sanomaan päivämäärää, jonain päivänä pomminvarmasti" -Hjallis Harkimo

Translated:

"I will sell Jokerit before the season begins."
I will sell Jokerit during Fall."
"Before the New Year the sale will happen"
"Before Santa arrives, you will know who wil ltake after Jokerit after me."
"I can't give you a date yet, some day for sure."

 

[Jussi]

Herrojen valheet: Harry Harkimon viimeiseksi työnäytteeksi Jokereissa jää palturi Suomi-kiekon auttamisesta

Interesting (critical) article about about the promises that was made about Jokerit when they joined the KHL, and what the statistics are showing.

Yeah, the gist of it was that all the reasons Kummola and his successor Nummela said lead to allowing Jokerit to move to KHL and how it supposedly benefits Finnish hockey are simply not supported by stats. Finnish stars did not suddenly move to Jokerit from bigger KHL clubs nor did they move there from Liiga clubs. And the claim that more Finns in KHL is good Finnish hockey, is not supported by the fact that there are less and less Finnish players in Jokerit each season. The current one being the first where there are more foreigners than Finns. Essentially, the move was all about saving Harkimo's finances. Cobol made a good point at Jatkoaika about the lack of player movement between Jokerit and Liiga clubs, suggesting an article headline of "Liiga clubs don't want to become a farm club for Jokerit, dues to fears of Jokerit salary and banking issues following and affecting them".

 

[Jussi]

12,5 million euro losses on 12,2 million euro turnover. The turnover was expected to rise, possibly because of so many anniversary year (ticket)campaigns. Due to those cheap and free tickets, ticket sale revenue declined to which the article wryly noted that "ticket pricing was a failure".

Edit: some posters at Jatkoaika with full access to article have already commented that a 60% rise in turnover without any increases in partners/ad revenue and ticket sale revenue raises a lot of questions.

 

[Jokerit Wasp]

I've always wondered if a Finnish/Swedish joint league would work? Swedish conference and Finnish conference, say 15 teams in each. You play the team from the other conference once home, once away, and teams in your own conference twice home, twice away.

Surely better than the KHL.

 

[Jussi]

I've always wondered if a Finnish/Swedish joint league would work? Swedish conference and Finnish conference, say 15 teams in each. You play the team from the other conference once home, once away, and teams in your own conference twice home, twice away.

Surely better than the KHL.

I think there's more resistance from the Swedish side. The ideas been floated at least over a decade by some medias.

 

[pulverapa]

So we all know the astronomical economic losses Jokerit are making every year. How long can they keep up at this rate? Is there any indication on the big boys, are they losing interest in funding their hobby?

 

[vorky]

I've always wondered if a Finnish/Swedish joint league would work? Swedish conference and Finnish conference, say 15 teams in each. You play the team from the other conference once home, once away, and teams in your own conference twice home, twice away.

Surely better than the KHL.

The idea as good as a joint Czech-Slovak league. I am for it, why not? Only problem is money and arenas. Slovakia has only one appropriate arena, in Košice. I do not count Slovan, who is in the KHL. And money are not there, at all.

I can see the same problem in Sweden-Finland. Correct me if wrong... but I see Finland is the same position as Slovakia. Both countries would welcome a joint league with a neighbour. Both countries have weaker league than a neighbour. And less money than a neighbour. On the other hand, Sweden/Czech rep are in position of elder brother, who are not interested in a joint league, at all.

 

[Exarz]

So we all know the astronomical economic losses Jokerit are making every year. How long can they keep up at this rate? Is there any indication on the big boys, are they losing interest in funding their hobby?

Jokerit has three years left (excluding this season) on their five year contract, after that, we'll see. I don't think the big boys would lose interest in Jokerit, as Jokerit has been ranked as the league's most valuable club in the most recent rankings. I doubt that the league itself would want to see that club walk away and lose that prestige.

In addition to that, in a critical way of thinking, the idea of Jokerit/Arena Events functioning as money laundering businesses has been presented previously.

 

[Jussi]

Jokerit has three years left (excluding this season) on their five year contract, after that, we'll see. I don't think the big boys would lose interest in Jokerit, as Jokerit has been ranked as the league's most valuable club in the most recent rankings. I doubt that the league itself would want to see that club walk away and lose that prestige.

In addition to that, in a critical way of thinking, the idea of Jokerit/Arena Events functioning as money laundering businesses has been presented previously.

There have been rumors that they've been shocked at how much they've had to fund the club with capital loans. They were supposedly expecting maybe a couple of million but not over 10 million.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

There have been rumors that they've been shocked at how much they've had to fund the club with capital loans. They were supposedly expecting maybe a couple of million but not over 10 million.

It would take 240 years to bankrupt Timchenko, give or take a decade or two.

 

[Jussi]

It would take 240 years to bankrupt Timchenko, give or take a decade or two.

That isn't the point.It's not that they can't afford the losses, they just don't want to pay this much.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

That isn't the point.It's not that they can't afford the losses, they just don't want to pay this much.

KHL salary cap is something like €11mm. At their attendance numbers + concessions they’re at something like $10mm in revenues, adding in TV, sponsorship and whatnot they probably should be north of €12mm in revenue. Budget €2mm for front office, another €2m for game day staff. There’s nobody on that roster that should be getting paid €200k(assuming tax & pension rates at 100%) let alone an average of €200k so I don’t see how you lose €12mm on €12mm in revenue without massive transfer payments to somebody that has nothing to do with hockey. The nut on their rent would have to be €1.5mm/month during the season, which is well beyond market rates. Even €1mm monthly rent for the entire year is above market rates on a lockout basis.

Added:At €1mm/month lockout rent, the rate of return on the buildout of Hartwall Arena would be around 17% pa. Without a breakout of Arena Events published reports it’s hard to do a deeper dive into what is going on, but the numbers don’t even come close to adding up even at a superficial analysis.

 

[Garl]

That isn't the point.It's not that they can't afford the losses, they just don't want to pay this much.

You do realize that all KHL teams are losing money for their owners? And that someone is actually paying for this?

 

[Jussi]

You do realize that all KHL teams are losing money for their owners? And that someone is actually paying for this?

Yes, but the talk around town is that the costs have far exceeded their expectations. Hence why they haven't been talking to Harkimo in ages, they blame it on him.