Jokerit 2018-2019 - I Am, We Are!

[Exarz]

Kristian Vesalainen is oficially on Jokerit till the end of the season.

Nothing official yet, but he will come, that's a 100% fact.

 

[Exarz]

... and now it’s official!

 

[iginlafan77]

Looks like vesalainen starts on line two with manninen and jormakka today.

 

[Jussi]

As expected, Harkimo's is talk of finding a buyer before Christmas is looking less likely: Mikä on raskaasti tappiollisen Jokereiden arvo rahassa? Päivärinta kysyy suoraan - näin Hjallis kiemurtelee

Now saying that if he can't find a Finnish buyer, he'll stay on as owner. In that scenario, he'll be damaged goods in political circles due to being associated with people on sanctions lists. Those people are also why Selänne won't be associated with the team in any business capacity.

 

[Jaska]

There is no meaningfull business with Jokerit in KHL. Revenues €10M and costs €30M. No investor will touch that, with the political downside being real. There will be no Finnish buyer, unless the money comes from Russia.

I loved the games with TPS and Jokerit back in the day. And I hate to see the state Jokerit is in today, living on handouts from oligogarchs.

Nothing against Russian hockey.

 

[Albatros]

I loved the games with TPS and Jokerit back in the day. And I hate to see the state Jokerit is in today, living on handouts from oligogarchs.

Though TPS is kept alive by investors covering the losses just the same, only the numbers are smaller (still in millions). In Liiga Jokerit might be profitable, but they'd be just another mediocre club then just like they used to be before they left. It's clear that their current mighty existence won't last forever, but I think it'll have been worth it regardless. Better one day a lion than an eternity as a sheep.

 

[Jussi]

Though TPS is kept alive by investors covering the losses just the same, only the numbers are smaller (still in millions). In Liiga Jokerit might be profitable, but they'd be just another mediocre club then just like they used to be before they left. It's clear that their current mighty existence won't last forever, but I think it'll have been worth it regardless. Better one day a lion than an eternity as a sheep.

That's more to do with poor management decisions. TPS has made profit several times during their Liiga years at the their current arena. If they were in trouble, their ownership wouldn't be building a new arena in a much better location than the current one. The same applies to Jokerit in their last about 10 years in SM Liiga. Considering the resources, they were managed/run like shit and most of the blame falls on Harkimo. When Kekäläinen was GM, the future looked more promising as he had begun to make changes, most of all in the junior teams and player development. Even more importantly, he had a vision. But as soon as he left, all of that was washed away. If Jokerit returned to Liiga and were run properly, they wouldn't be making losses every season. That's what frustrated many Jokerit fans in Liiga, the wasted potential.

 

[Albatros]

Harkimo had a vision in the 1990s and that saved Jokerit at the time, perhaps when the day comes they will find a new man with a vision. But Liiga is not anymore the same it was in the 1990s, so unless a new European league with Finnish participation is formed avoiding a new era of prolonged frustration might be difficult there whatever the finances. Player development is truly exciting only if it is possible to keep the talent once it starts blooming. In the 1990s Jokerit could develop a Selänne and keep him until 22, that's draft +4. Now sadly the best way to get a Tolvanen or a Vesalainen even just for a year is to be in the KHL.

 

[Jussi]

Harkimo had a vision in the 1990s and that saved Jokerit at the time, perhaps when the day comes they will find a new man with a vision. But Liiga is not anymore the same it was in the 1990s, so unless a new European league with Finnish participation is formed avoiding a new era of prolonged frustration might be difficult there whatever the finances. Player development is truly exciting only if it is possible to keep the talent once it starts blooming. In the 1990s Jokerit could develop a Selänne and keep him until 22, that's draft +4. Now sadly the best way to get a Tolvanen or a Vesalainen even just for a year is to be in the KHL.

The problem isn't the high end draft picks but developing competent roster players. Players that could have easily played in Liiga 2-4th lines or 2nd/3rd pairing dmen. Those type of players were a key factor in the 90's Liiga titles for Jokerit. That isn't a reality now because the most talented Jokerit juniors leave to other clubs (junior organizations, Liiga clubs or NA junior leagues) after C- or B-juniors latest because A)there's no proper career path and B) Jokerit A-juniors team is a constant mess. In Liiga at least there would be a career path (C->B>>A-juniors->Liiga team).

 

[vorky]

The problem isn't the high end draft picks but developing competent roster players. Players that could have easily played in Liiga 2-4th lines or 2nd/3rd pairing dmen. Those type of players were a key factor in the 90's Liiga titles for Jokerit. That isn't a reality now because the most talented Jokerit juniors leave to other clubs (junior organizations, Liiga clubs or NA junior leagues) after C- or B-juniors latest because A)there's no proper career path and B) Jokerit A-juniors team is a constant mess. In Liiga at least there would be a career path (C->B>>A-juniors->Liiga team).

Give us an example of a top-end Finnish player (aka Selänne calibre) playing the Liiga until he is 22 years. I mean last 4-6 seasons. That is what Albatros said in a part you bolded.

 

[Jussi]

Give us an example of a top-end Finnish player (aka Selänne calibre) playing the Liiga until he is 22 years. I mean last 4-6 seasons. That is what Albatros said in a part you bolded.

But that wasn't my initial point re: player development as I said in the post you quoted. You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Did you really not understand this part:

The problem isn't the high end draft picks but developing competent roster players. Players that could have easily played in Liiga 2-4th lines or 2nd/3rd pairing dmen. Those type of players were a key factor in the 90's Liiga titles for Jokerit.

 

[vorky]

To sum it up - a poster dislikes current Jokerit due to "living on handouts from oligarchs." Another poster claiming TPS is funded by oligarchs as well. The only difference is that Jokerit playing an elite & respected league, while TPS playing a local league nobody is interested in. Jokerit can afford to hire top-end talent while TPS not .. due to a league's status.

You can thank Harkimo for bringing Jokerit to the KHL. A man with a vision.

 

[hansomreiste]

To sum it up - a poster dislikes current Jokerit due to "living on handouts from oligarchs." Another poster claiming TPS is funded by oligarchs as well. The only difference is that Jokerit playing an elite & respected league, while TPS playing a local league nobody is interested in. Jokerit can afford to hire top-end talent while TPS not .. due to a league's status.

You can thank Harkimo for bringing Jokerit to the KHL. A man with a vision.

A local league nobody is interested in? This is too harsh. Even kids know that the Finns adore hockey and theirs is one of the best leagues in the world. Good or bad, people mostly care about their "local leagues" more than anything. I'm happy since Jokerit are in KHL but I see no reason for any Finnish fan to feel positive about it. Expenses in the KHL are FAR MORE than in Liiga and it is extremely unlikely that Jokerit will win anything in near future.

Jokerit could stay in Liiga, in good or bad shape, for as long as they want. In KHL, they are totally dependent on oligarchs who may just shut the door and ruin the club. Also, as I said, I believe people in Helsinki would very much prefer to see their own team against some other Finnish opponents rather than a team from Khabarovsk or Cherepovets. At least with how the club is being handled now.

 

[Jussi]

A local league nobody is interested in? This is too harsh. Even kids know that the Finns adore hockey and theirs is one of the best leagues in the world. Good or bad, people mostly care about their "local leagues" more than anything. I'm happy since Jokerit are in KHL but I see no reason for any Finnish fan to feel positive about it. Expenses in the KHL are FAR MORE than in Liiga and it is extremely unlikely that Jokerit will win anything in near future.

Jokerit could stay in Liiga, in good or bad shape, for as long as they want. In KHL, they are totally dependent on oligarchs who may just shut the door and ruin the club. Also, as I said, I believe people in Helsinki would very much prefer to see their own team against some other Finnish opponents rather than a team from Khabarovsk or Cherepovets. At least with how the club is being handled now.

This appliesto both Sweden and Finland. Both countries live off of their local rivalries, not just in hockey but other team sports as well. And if "nobody" cared about Liiga, then why did Telia pay more for the new tv contract than it was before?

Also, since when are Supercell guys Paananen and Kodisoja, who are part owners of TPS, oligarchs?

 

[Albatros]

I believe people in Helsinki would very much prefer to see their own team against some other Finnish opponents rather than a team from Khabarovsk or Cherepovets.

If that was true one would expect the remaining Finnish league team to have a higher average attendance which is by far not the case. Also it's worth noting that Jokerit themselves have had a significantly higher average attendance in the KHL than they had in the domestic league.

 

[Jussi]

If that was true one would expect the remaining Finnish league team to have a higher average attendance which is by far not the case. Also it's worth noting that Jokerit themselves have had a significantly higher average attendance in the KHL than they had in the domestic league.

That doesn't sound very logical. Just because you take one team away, it doesn't automatically increase everyone else's attendances. Not sure where you got this idea from. And yes there are lot of people living in Helsinki that are not native to the city. Ever heard of the name "Etäkärpät" for example? They would show in masses with their bellytifos for Jokerit-Kärpät games in SM-Liiga.

It's worth noting that Jokerit have handed out more free tickets and had "see 4 games for the price of three" type campaigns in their KHL era than ever before in SM-Liiga. It's easily deductible by their constantly declining turnover.

 

[vorky]

A local league nobody is interested in? This is too harsh. Even kids know that the Finns adore hockey and theirs is one of the best leagues in the world. Good or bad, people mostly care about their "local leagues" more than anything. I'm happy since Jokerit are in KHL but I see no reason for any Finnish fan to feel positive about it. Expenses in the KHL are FAR MORE than in Liiga and it is extremely unlikely that Jokerit will win anything in near future.

Jokerit could stay in Liiga, in good or bad shape, for as long as they want. In KHL, they are totally dependent on oligarchs who may just shut the door and ruin the club. Also, as I said, I believe people in Helsinki would very much prefer to see their own team against some other Finnish opponents rather than a team from Khabarovsk or Cherepovets. At least with how the club is being handled now.

Let us ask Finns about the Liiga´s attendance in last decade.

You know what the problem is. The KHL is a much more difficult league than the Liiga. Even top European club, @Jussi would name Frolunda or so, would struggle in the KHL. Totally different competitions, scheduling, opponents. Give top Turkish soccer team to the EPL & we will see the results. You can be a champion at home, but other competitions are better. Jokerit doing fine in the KHL, being top 3 in the West. Finns should be proud of Jokerit.

Name me a club in European hockey who is not dependant on owners. And even a soccer club.

I do not know a reason for shutting down the Jokerit. The club is the most valuable KHL club, why to ruin it?

 

[Albatros]

That doesn't sound very logical. Just because you take one team away, it doesn't automatically increase everyone else's attendances.

So you mean that hockey is less popular in Helsinki now because Jokerit joined the KHL, instead of going to watch HIFK in Liiga people are increasingly not interested at all anymore? On the contrary the increasing Jokerit attendances suggest that joining the KHL was rather popular, sure there will be a certain fraction of fans that left, but a bigger group joined because of it.

 

[Jussi]

So you mean that hockey is less popular in Helsinki now because Jokerit joined the KHL, instead of going to watch HIFK in Liiga people are increasingly not interested at all anymore? On the contrary the increasing Jokerit attendances suggest that joining the KHL was rather popular, sure there will be a certain fraction of fans that left, but a bigger group joined because of it.

I think you may have misunderstood hansomreiste's point. This based on what Jokerit posters at Jatkoaika have noticed but it seems they've lost a lot of older fans that have been long time Jokerit fans but gained supporters who wouldn't go see them if they played in Liiga (due to being fans of a Liiga teams). Some of these KHL-Jokerit fans have themselves posted that their workplaces have offered free tickets often this season.

 

[vorky]

I think you may have misunderstood hansomreiste's point. This based on what Jokerit posters at Jatkoaika have noticed but it seems they've lost a lot of older fans that have been long time Jokerit fans but gained supporters who wouldn't go see them if they played in Liiga (due to being fans of a Liiga teams). Some of these KHL-Jokerit fans have themselves posted that their workplaces have offered free tickets often this season.

I would like to remind all posters here, what your sources have told you for years

1.Jokerit will be back in the Liiga by 2018
2.The EU law is directly applicable in the US
etc

The point is we do not trust your sources.

 

[Jussi]

I would like to remind all posters here, what your sources have told you for years

1.Jokerit will be back in the Liiga by 2018
2.The EU law is directly applicable in the US
etc

The point is we do not trust your sources.

Citation needed.

I also would like to remind all posters that vorky likes to put labels on people and make up statements without evidence to back those claims.

 

[Jaska]

Let us ask Finns about the Liiga´s attendance in last decade.

You know what the problem is. The KHL is a much more difficult league than the Liiga. Even top European club, @Jussi would name Frolunda or so, would struggle in the KHL. Totally different competitions, scheduling, opponents. Give top Turkish soccer team to the EPL & we will see the results. You can be a champion at home, but other competitions are better. Jokerit doing fine in the KHL, being top 3 in the West. Finns should be proud of Jokerit.

Name me a club in European hockey who is not dependant on owners. And even a soccer club.

I do not know a reason for shutting down the Jokerit. The club is the most valuable KHL club, why to ruin it?

Jokerit inthe latest financial report: revenues €7.669k and profits € -14.867k. Is this really the most valuable club in KHL? It's a financial trainwreck.

Mean while the neighbour in FEL, HIFK: revenues €10 230k and profits €-130k. HIFK tickets are generally more expensive than tickets to Jokerit games and the venue is smaller. People are voting with their wallets.

 

[Albatros]

The first time I see "fans" oppose reasonable ticket prices.

 

[Jaska]

The first time I see "fans" oppose reasonable ticket prices.

Well, I'm just explaining that there is more demand for HIFK games in Helsinki. Jokerit is unable to fill their stadium even with rock bottom campaign pricing. My point is about the demand for the product and seems that FEL>KHL in Finland.

 

[Jussi]

The first time I see "fans" oppose reasonable ticket prices.

It's not oppose per se but they recognize the dire situation Jokerit are in financially and competitively. This isn't something even the pro KHL crowd at Jatkoaika deny. Even with high end prices (the kind they charge in home games vs SKA) and every home game sold out (which is not reality), Jokerit could not make profit in the KHL. Several financial medias in Finland have done the math on that.