Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (Part XVII)

[Grind]

People do undersell Buff's value, but...

Others undersell the value of a 22 year old centre who can already slot into a top 6 role and put up 50 or so points. I mean he is no Seguin, but a young 2nd line centre with 1st line upside is a sizable asset too.

exactly. Buff's not gonna be worth a tonne more then Schenn. And I just don't think we should be trying to snowball it into some monster deal to secure a second "perfect" piece. Seems to me that's exactly how you kill a deal.


there's no winger on that roster that presents a reasonable mid-longterm upgrade that they'd be willing to part with without significant additions.

I can't imagine they'd be willing to lose two young centers without us adding significantly (maybe burmistroves rights? i could MAYBE see something on that, but i doubt he's valued as much).

As far as left handed D, that leaves gustaffson, grossman, and mezsaros.

I'll take Schenn at 24 and Righthanded over 28 yearolds grossman and mez.

I'd love gustaffson but i can't see them being to willing to part with a young capable top 6 d man who would develope more, and is on an ELC. Again, teams like philly are all about the Caphit VS Production.



so whats left? Prospects and picks? The problem there again is the caphit for Philly.

I really do think it leave Luke as the best add in regardless of name

 

[Grind]

Really really really hate myself for saying it, but would rather trade Bogo than buff...

I wouldn't RATHER do ti, but i'm open to it.

It would mean resigning Buff and needing trouba to develope.. and id be willing to ask for a little more then just Luke, but i'd be open to that if it makes us a better team.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Big Brayden Schenn fan

Decent size, but knows how to use it

On pace for 53 points on the league's 3rd worst offense. He does have a career-high shooting % though.

He'd easily be a 60-65 point physical 2nd C in his prime. 70-75 point upside.

The question is, what do you do with Bright Eyes and Little? Convert Little back to wing?

Ladd-Schenn-Wheeler
Kane-Scheifele-Little
Frolik-Joker-Seto

is a damn good looking top 9

 

[Grind]

Big Brayden Schenn fan

Decent size, but knows how to use it

On pace for 53 points on the league's 3rd worst offense. He does have a career-high shooting % though.

He'd easily be a 60-65 point physical 2nd C in his prime. 70-75 point upside.

The question is, what do you do with Bright Eyes and Little? Convert Little back to wing?

Ladd-Schenn-Wheeler
Kane-Scheifele-Little
Frolik-Joker-Seto

is a damn good looking top 9

yup, that's pretty much what' i'd do.

 

[truck]

yup, that's pretty much what' i'd do.

I don't think you can move Little out of the centre position at this point.

 

[buggs]

I don't think you can move Little out of the centre position at this point.

Have Scheifele play wing?

 

[Grind]

I don't think you can move Little out of the centre position at this point.

no, i suppose not.

schief can go on the wing

or you can run all trhee down the middle.

 

[veganhunter]

I don't think you can move Little out of the centre position at this point.

My thoughts as well. I believed he was destined to end up back on the wing but he has been so good since the end of last year it just doesn't make sense. If Little is playing as your #2 or 1B you are in good shape.

no, i suppose not.

schief can go on the wing

or you can run all trhee down the middle.

Schief I really don't think would make a good winger. I'd run all three, nothing wrong with having 3 really good centres.

 

[Huffer]

No, i would take a Left handed dman. The point is no one else fits everything as well as he does.

who would you target?


there's isn't a perfect fit on that roster, when you consider that it has to be something the other team would want.


Realistically i don't know who you'd be targeting without adding significantly.

seriously..who do you see as a better fit? Your putting a bit too much weight on his handedness

See, that is my point. This whole Philly trade proposal is predicated on the fact that a rumor is out that the Flyers "may" deal Brayden Schenn. And that we've heard rumors of the Flyers being interested in Buff in the past. So now it's all, Buff to the Flyers for the Schenns, no matter if that is the best deal for the Jets or not.

Buff right now is worth more than Brayden Schenn. B Schenn has a lot of upside, and is valuable, but top pairing D men that put up the points that Buff does always carry a massive premium.

So if I'm looking at an extra piece to B Schenn for Buff, there is a much better piece for the Jets and that's Read. Buff is worth Schenn and Read if everyone is so sure he is worth both Schenns. They would still have 6 other players to play in the top 6, plus Couturier. Read is a 2nd / 3rd line tweener, which would give us much more value as a team than adding Luke.

I think a lot of people are so enamored with making a trade, or getting B Schenn, that they're ignoring how much Buff would return in a trade, and trying to rationalize a deal that maybe not the best one we could get.

Edit: Still not saying that a deal with both Schenns for Buff would be terrible, but it seems like we're talking here like the Jets have to jump on it like it's expiring or something. The Jets should make a deal that they feel makes them better, and one that is the best they could get.

 

[Guerzy]

Agree with truck in regards to not moving Little out of his centre position just yet. When/if Scheifele becomes that top 2 centre, by all means shift Little to RW.

This could be great for Scheifele in that it keeps him out of the top 2 lines and tough offensive match-ups until he really grows fit for the role consistently, while also giving us a legit top 6 guy in Schenn, which I think would help a ton.

Perhaps send Scheifele to the rock if need be this season. Next season we can adjust accordingly and see where the chips fall. If Scheifele is ready for prime time, perhaps then we can move Little to RW. If Scheifele isn't ready for top 6 minutes, nothing wrong with him playing 3rd line until he (if he..) proves capable of top 6 duties.

We would have lots of flexibility.

 

[Majikme]

I think Brayden Schenn improves this club a LOT. Exactly what we need.

 

[Guerzy]

See, that is my point. This whole Philly trade proposal is predicated on the fact that a rumor is out that the Flyers "may" deal Brayden Schenn. And that we've heard rumors of the Flyers being interested in Buff in the past. So now it's all, Buff to the Flyers for the Schenns, no matter if that is the best deal for the Jets or not.

Buff right now is worth more than Brayden Schenn. B Schenn has a lot of upside, and is valuable, but top pairing D men that put up the points that Buff does always carry a massive premium.

So if I'm looking at an extra piece to B Schenn for Buff, there is a much better piece for the Jets and that's Read. Buff is worth Schenn and Read if everyone is so sure he is worth both Schenns. They would still have 6 other players to play in the top 6, plus Couturier. Read is a 2nd / 3rd line tweener, which would give us much more value as a team than adding Luke.

I think a lot of people are so enamored with making a trade, or getting B Schenn, that they're ignoring how much Buff would return in a trade, and trying to rationalize a deal that maybe not the best one we could get.

I fully see your points here, Huffer. Perhaps Read would make more sense for us.

I'll just say that a 22 year old second line centre/forward right now, who is on pace for 25 goals, 54 points, clear future potential top line centre, 5th overall pick 4 years ago, would be a fair tradeoff, even straight up, for Byfuglien.

I think you're perhaps underrating Brayden Schenn here, and the value he carries for what he brings today, and what he is likely to bring in the coming years. Or, maybe I am overrating Brayden Schenn?

At the end of the day if this Winnipeg-Philly deal goes through, perhaps we end up with Luke as more of a "throw-in" on Philly's end so they can get rid of his salary, but to me, Byfuglien is not worth that much more than Brayden Schenn, straight up, today.

 

[Huffer]

I fully see your points here, Huffer. Perhaps Read would make more sense for us.

I'll just say that a 22 year old second line centre/forward right now, who is on pace for 25 goals, 54 points, clear future potential top line centre, 5th overall pick 4 years ago, would be a fair tradeoff, even straight up, for Byfuglien.

I think you're perhaps underrating Brayden Schenn here, and the value he carries for what he brings today, and what he is likely to bring in the coming years.

Maybe at the end of the day if this Winnipeg-Philly deal goes through, perhaps we end up with Luke as more of a "throw-in", but to me, Byfuglien is not worth that much more than Brayden Schenn, straight up, today.

I think the bolded is just where we (I guess myself with the majority), are going to have to agree to disagree.

I just don't see any reason for Buff not to be worth more than Brayden Schenn. Unless someone can point out some historical trades, I think the trades in the past show that established, high quality, top pairing, point producing D men have a massive value. Goligoski is a quarter the player Buff is. Burns as an upcoming UFA had a nice return, etc.

 

[Grind]

See, that is my point. This whole Philly trade proposal is predicated on the fact that a rumor is out that the Flyers "may" deal Brayden Schenn. And that we've heard rumors of the Flyers being interested in Buff in the past. So now it's all, Buff to the Flyers for the Schenns, no matter if that is the best deal for the Jets or not.

Buff right now is worth more than Brayden Schenn. B Schenn has a lot of upside, and is valuable, but top pairing D men that put up the points that Buff does always carry a massive premium.

So if I'm looking at an extra piece to B Schenn for Buff, there is a much better piece for the Jets and that's Read. Buff is worth Schenn and Read if everyone is so sure he is worth both Schenns. They would still have 6 other players to play in the top 6, plus Couturier. Read is a 2nd / 3rd line tweener, which would give us much more value as a team than adding Luke.

I think a lot of people are so enamored with making a trade, or getting B Schenn, that they're ignoring how much Buff would return in a trade, and trying to rationalize a deal that maybe not the best one we could get.

Edit: Still not saying that a deal with both Schenns for Buff would be terrible, but it seems like we're talking here like the Jets have to jump on it like it's expiring or something. The Jets should make a deal that they feel makes them better, and one that is the best they could get.

I think we have toa gree to disagree if you think buff is worth considerably more then B schenn.

aaaand i just don't think he's that much better of a piece for winnipeg. I'd agree it's better, but only a little better. and it's probably a lot worse for philly due to their need to get good production for low cap hit (something that doesn't translate as importantly to the jets)

by your own word he's a 2nd/3rd line tweener. Thats a piece easily replacable in FA for a team not at the cap (IE us). I just think there's a disconnect between what read is worth to philly compared to what he is worth to us.

The cap-hit is not an issue for us, as after this season we'll be well below the cap and not in a rush to bump up to it. There also is no potential in matt read as far as i'm concerned. he is a middle six player and he will always be a middle six player.


Honestly, to me, getting B schenn is worth the possible downgrade of read to luke.

IMO BSChenn + Read for buff > SchennsX2 for Buff but SchennsX2 for buff > just having buff. Which is my point.

i'd rather make the deal for Luke then not make a deal. and philly might not be willing to make the deal with read. Compromise.

i see it as a logic block sort of thing. The set up with luke works best for BOTH parties, wheres something with read would work best for US but significantly worse for Philly.

 

[Huffer]

I think we have toa gree to disagree if you think buff is worth considerably more then B schenn.

aaaand i just don't think he's that much better of a piece for winnipeg. I'd agree it's better, but only a little better. and it's probably a lot worse for philly due to their need to get good production for low cap hit (something that doesn't translate as importantly to the jets)

by your own word he's a 2nd/3rd line tweener. Thats a piece easily replacable in FA for a team not at the cap (IE us). I just think there's a disconnect between what read is worth to philly compared to what he is worth to us.

The cap-hit is not an issue for us, as after this season we'll be well below the cap and not in a rush to bump up to it. There also is no potential in matt read as far as i'm concerned. he is a middle six player and he will always be a middle six player.


Honestly, to me, getting B schenn is worth the possible downgrade of read to luke.

IMO BSChenn + Read for buff > SchennsX2 for Buff but SchennsX2 for buff > just having buff. Which is my point.

i'd rather make the deal for Luke then not make a deal. and philly might not be willing to make the deal with read. Compromise.

i see it as a logic block sort of thing. The set up with luke works best for BOTH parties, wheres something with read would work best for US but significantly worse for Philly.

I can appreciate your reasoning, because I think I agree with everyone's train of thought.

I just personally think Buff's value at the moment is more than B Schenn. Which is I guess the only real disagreement.

Plus, I would hope that IF Chevy is willing to trade Buff, that he contacts 28 other GM's. Maybe there is a better deal for us out there?

 

[Grind]

I can appreciate your reasoning, because I think I agree with everyone's train of thought.

I just personally think Buff's value at the moment is more than B Schenn. Which is I guess the only real disagreement.

Plus, I would hope that IF Chevy is willing to trade Buff, that he contacts 28 other GM's. Maybe there is a better deal for us out there?

I'm all ears for a better deal

and perhaps i get bit of the blinders on as this one does seem to be one of the few deal that really does make sense.

Philly has young Center depth and needs a very good dman

we need young centers and have a very good dman.

I don't know if a better deal is out there. How many other teams have massive youthful center depth and are needing top pairing Dmen?


Colorado??...........I can't think of anyone else...and if buff's staying in our division it better be a MUCH better deal

 

[truck]

I can appreciate your reasoning, because I think I agree with everyone's train of thought.

I just personally think Buff's value at the moment is more than B Schenn. Which is I guess the only real disagreement.

Plus, I would hope that IF Chevy is willing to trade Buff, that he contacts 28 other GM's. Maybe there is a better deal for us out there?

Generally speaking, 50 point D men are worth more than 50 point 2nd line forwards so I do think he is worth more than B Schenn. I just don't think you can get that much more for the guy - especially in the early 20s age range that will benefit the Jets the most long term.

 

[allan5oh]

Buff for b schenn and Coburn.

 

[truck]

I'm all ears for a better deal

and perhaps i get bit of the blinders on as this one does seem to be one of the few deal that really does make sense.

Philly has young Center depth and needs a very good dman

we need young centers and have a very good dman.

I don't know if a better deal is out there. How many other teams have massive youthful center depth and are needing top pairing Dmen?


Colorado??...........I can't think of anyone else...and if buff's staying in our division it better be a MUCH better deal

Apart from the Flyers Colorado and Anaheim are the teams that make the most sense to me. The Ducks made sense more so before they traded Holland.

 

[JetsFan815]

I fully see your points here, Huffer. Perhaps Read would make more sense for us.

I'll just say that a 22 year old second line centre/forward right now, who is on pace for 25 goals, 54 points, clear future potential top line centre, 5th overall pick 4 years ago, would be a fair tradeoff, even straight up, for Byfuglien.

I think you're perhaps underrating Brayden Schenn here, and the value he carries for what he brings today, and what he is likely to bring in the coming years. Or, maybe I am overrating Brayden Schenn?

At the end of the day if this Winnipeg-Philly deal goes through, perhaps we end up with Luke as more of a "throw-in" on Philly's end so they can get rid of his salary, but to me, Byfuglien is not worth that much more than Brayden Schenn, straight up, today.

This is so far off its not even funny. Wake up people and see reality. A close comparable to a hypothetical Buff trade was the Brent Burns trade. Brent Burns got the Wild the following:

Setogucci (who had similar production to what Schenn has now and was the same age)

Charlie Coyle (a blue chip prospect who was the first round pick the year before)

1st round pick.

And this is the haul for a soon to be UFA Brent Burns. Buff has put on more points than Burns and has 3 years on his contract including this year. If Chevy lets Buff go for a measley return like Schenn that that will be robbery after what Minny got for a similar player who didn't even have as many years under contract as Buff does.

Buff is being seriously undervalued by several orders of magnitude

 

[Guerzy]

Generally speaking, 50 point D men are worth more than 50 point 2nd line forwards so I do think he is worth more than B Schenn. I just don't think you can get that much more for the guy - especially in the early 20s age range that will benefit the Jets the most long term.

I partially agree with this, but with Brayden Schenn just having turned 22 three months ago, I think he just may be young enough and carry enough potential, that this is where I don't see the + being that much.

If he were 25-27, sure, he's probably never going to be more than a 50 point guy. But, considering Schenn is contributing at that pace today, and given all things considered about the young player (age, production, draft status, hype, etc.. it all counts in terms of value), he's likely pegged to be a 70 point guy when all is said and done.

That to me, is worth Byfuglien. It's a gamble, sure, but teams gamble on these sort of "projections" all the time.

Like I said, at the end of the day I do think it would be Brayden Schenn + something, i'm just not sure that the + is going to be overly great. I could be wrong, though. I'd like that.

 

[wpgsilver]

Buff for b schenn and Coburn.

I've been hoping for that but Coburn is playing well for Philly, pretty sure they pass on that deal.
I'd throw in a prospect or two to make it happen. Buff + Olsen+ Sutter.

 

[Guerzy]

This is so far off its not even funny. Wake up people and see reality. A close comparable to a hypothetical Buff trade was the Brent Burns trade. Brent Burns got the Wild the following:

Setogucci (who had similar production to what Schenn has now and was the same age)

Charlie Coyle (a blue chip prospect who was the first round pick the year before)

1st round pick.

And this is the haul for a soon to be UFA Brent Burns. Buff has put on more points than Burns and has 3 years on his contract including this year. If Chevy lets Buff go for a measley return like Schenn that that will be robbery after what Minny got for a similar player who didn't even have as many years under contract as Buff does.

Buff is being seriously undervalued by several orders of magnitude

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Like I said, teams account for the projection of a young player all the time. Trade value for a player like Schenn is broad in terms of his pedigree, overall resume, where he was yesterday, where he is today, and where he'll likely be in the future, etc. All things considered we are talking about a 22 year old, legitimate point producing 2nd line forward who by all indications past and present will be a top line player, or stands a great shot at it. Teams pay out the nose for these types of young players, especially centreman, just as they do for 50+ defenseman like Byfuglien.

I'm on repeat, but I am willing to bet that in 2 years, heck, maybe next season, a year from now, we may look and think Brayden Schenn for Byfuglien was/is a great tradeoff for the Jets, whether it happens or not.

We'll see. Quote me in a year or two, i'll be here.

 

[ps241]

There is allot to like about landing B Schenn. I do have one sizable concern though and that is what if his chemistry with Kane sucks and we are once again trapped with a disfunctional 2nd line? Obviously I am getting away ahead of myself but Kane is just so tough to play with....oh well it is still decent asset Managment and sooner or later Buff is going to need a new deal and he won't be cheap.


I really like the idea of adding to our younger core.....all of a sudden we would be looking at Kane 22, Schenn 22, Bogo 23, Trouba, Scheif, Lowry, Kosmo, Morrissey, Petan, Lipon, Comrie, Lodge, and the class of 2013. Not perfect but trending in the right direction especially if we get lucky with a few non first round pics....Petan would be a complete franchise changer if he was able to adapt his game to the NHL.

We would really really miss Buff but nothing lasts forever.

 

[Huffer]

I'm all ears for a better deal

and perhaps i get bit of the blinders on as this one does seem to be one of the few deal that really does make sense.

Philly has young Center depth and needs a very good dman

we need young centers and have a very good dman.

I don't know if a better deal is out there. How many other teams have massive youthful center depth and are needing top pairing Dmen?


Colorado??...........I can't think of anyone else...and if buff's staying in our division it better be a MUCH better deal

I guess that's the big question. There may not be a lot of other options, I would just hope they at least explore them.

No way to know for sure, but maybe Edmonton, Detroit, or NYR?

Colorado could use a top pair D for sure, but with EJ I think they are looking for a lefty.

Who knows, maybe the Schenns is the best deal the Jets could get for Buff. I guess I was just trying to say that I hope the team would A) try to make the best deal with the Flyers that they could, and B) that they also talk with every other team out there.

I don't know how many times a GM gets to move a piece like Buff in their tenure. A trade like that could / should, set a clear direction for the team, and return exactly (or as best as possible), the pieces that the team feels gets them closer to that goal of a cup.