Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part VIII) - Pretty Mintniemi Edition

[Captain Mountain]

You obviously missed the point. But let me ask you this, after 79 games the team is currently fighting for PO spot (1 point out) KK played 76 of those games and all at center. Now, he is pushed to the wing, playing under 10 minutes for the likes of Weal and Thompson! why is that? and please do not tell me the kid hit a wall, I don't buy that.

Because:

1) Kotkaniemi is struggling, whether due to fatigue or loss of confidence.
2) Julien isn't thinking about development right now, he wants to make the playoffs.
3) Weal has been excellent in Montreal. Since he's started playing regularly, he's 6th in points, 5th in P/60, 1st in CF%, 1st in SCF% and 2nd in HDCF%. He's been one of the most productive deadline pickups this year.
4) Julien trusts Thompson more at center due to face-offs and experience. Not sure I agree, but for the 4th line I get it.

 

[Miller Time]

Yet Lehkonen and Danault are first liners on a regular team let alone a playoff team? We have larger problems than Weal on the 3rd line...

That's exactly the point.

Last thing we need is to keep adding more of the same & pretending it's a solution.

 

[Justin11]

Because:

1) Kotkaniemi is struggling, whether due to fatigue or loss of confidence.
2) Julien isn't thinking about development right now, he wants to make the playoffs.
3) Weal has been excellent in Montreal. Since he's started playing regularly, he's 6th in points, 5th in P/60, 1st in CF%, 1st in SCF% and 2nd in HDCF%. He's been one of the most productive deadline pickups this year.
4) Julien trusts Thompson more at center due to face-offs and experience. Not sure I agree, but for the 4th line I get it.

And where does this help the organisation, short term and long term?
BTW, Kotkaniemi was not the only one struggling when he did. Julien just put the blame on the youth and people actually bought it. Julien is a dinosaur coach.

 

[Captain Mountain]

And where does this help the organisation, short term and long term?
BTW, Kotkaniemi was not the only one struggling when he did. Julien just put the blame on the youth and people actually bought it. Julien is a dinosaur coach.

Short term? It improves their chances to make the play-offs.

Long term? Its largely irrelevant since we're not talking about a meaningful sample size or period of time.

And you're right, Kotkaniemi wasn't the only one struggling then too. Which is why Drouin and Benn got pushed down the line-up and Weal and Kulak got pushed up.

It has nothing to do with being a dinosaur coach though, a purely data driven analysis of the last 15 games would have suggested doing the same.

For the record, I don't care if the Canadiens make the playoffs, but if the goal is to make the playoffs, Julien is for the most part making the right decisions given how players are playing. I think his faith in Thompson is misplaced and he hasn't always chosen the right 13th/14th forwards to play, but that isn't all that significant in the grand scheme of things.

To bring it back to Kotkaniemi, he's played a lot of hockey at a much higher level at a tough position. He's going to survive a couple of scratches and a game or 3 at the wing. Its not a big deal.

 

[teamfirst]

I just hate reading that he's hit a wall, the only wall he's hit is the one CJ's put in front of him because the games have become more important and the coach wants to rely on players with experience.

I'll have to disagree with you on that one, call it the way you want ''the wall or fatigue or anything else'' .....to me it was quite obvious that KK wasn't has effective lately, i'm not a fan of CJ ( in case some here want to call me a Julien apologist ) but i wont blame him beceause he decided that KK should watch some game from upstairs, cuz i saw the same things he did, KK was a liability defensively lately and being an 18 years old he probably felt important that the kid would not feel to down on himself costing some important goals against during this race for the playoffs.....as well as he has an obligation to put the best line up HE thinks gives him a chance to make it

So KK playing wings for a couples of game i'm fine with it, like i said in another post i would have prefer he puts him with Domi and Shaw but that's CJ and that's one of the thing i dont like about his coaching style....too conservative, he probably prefer to have Lekhonen there cuz he will be playing the Domi's and Danault's line against the 1st and 2nd line of Tampa......but hey, he is coaching in the NHL an i'm not so......

BTW....glad to see you back, we sure can use some well tought post around here

 

[ahmedou]

And where does this help the organisation, short term and long term?
BTW, Kotkaniemi was not the only one struggling when he did. Julien just put the blame on the youth and people actually bought it. Julien is a dinosaur coach.

Montrealers dinosaurs wanna save their endangered species...

 

[jaffy27]

And where does this help the organisation, short term and long term?
BTW, Kotkaniemi was not the only one struggling when he did. Julien just put the blame on the youth and people actually bought it. Julien is a dinosaur coach.

Link where Julien is blaming KK please!!

 

[417]

I'll have to disagree with you on that one, call it the way you want ''the wall or fatigue or anything else'' .....to me it was quite obvious that KK wasn't has effective lately, i'm not a fan of CJ ( in case some here want to call me a Julien apologist ) but i wont blame him beceause he decided that KK should watch some game from upstairs, cuz i saw the same things he did, KK was a liability defensively lately and being an 18 years old he probably felt important that the kid would not feel to down on himself costing some important goals against during this race for the playoffs.....as well as he has an obligation to put the best line up HE thinks gives him a chance to make it

So KK playing wings for a couples of game i'm fine with it, like i said in another post i would have prefer he puts him with Domi and Shaw but that's CJ and that's one of the thing i dont like about his coaching style....too conservative, he probably prefer to have Lekhonen there cuz he will be playing the Domi's and Danault's line against the 1st and 2nd line of Tampa......but hey, he is coaching in the NHL an i'm not so......

I'm not saying Kotkaniemi hasn't hit a wall, i'm just saying he's not the only one...I think 90% of NHL players, at this point of the season have hit the wall.

I just think CJ singling him out, as though others on the team aren't just as fatigued or making mistakes, is a cop out.

CJ is like most coaches in the NHL, when the going gets tough, they're not going to trust younger players, they're going to lean on their veterans, regardless of performance.

BTW....glad to see you back, we sure can use some well tought post around here

Appreciate it!

 

[LaP]

A couple of things:

1) Svechnikov is playing much better than Kotkaniemi right now. I love Kotka's game, but he's struggled hard since he was scratched the 1st time. Whether its a loss of confidence or him being tired, he isn't playing as well as he was or how well he will next season.

2) Canes fleeced Minny for Nino a month and a half before the deadline, who has been their best winger since getting there.

3) And what does not getting a vet have to do with trying to make the play-offs?

Like, are people upset that Bergevin traded Chaput for Weal? Weal has a better P/GP and P/60 with his new team than other deadline guys like Stone, Duchene, Dzingel and Nyquist.

1) Schechnikov also has the confidence of his coach. It's not like Kotk had been playing bad for 20 games when he was put aside. He had 5 points +3 the previous 10 games before being scratched against LA by CJ. He has 2 points -4 in 10 games since he returned in the lineup. Is it possible him being scratched affected his confidence? IMO the eye test says he was playing better before being scratched than after.

2) That trade was a trade to improve the team mid to long term. What improving the team mid to long term has to do with trying to make the playoffs it would be like saying we tried to make the playoffs by trading AG for Domi. Doesn't make an once of a sense.

3) That's the whole point. Did you even read the thread? Apparently we must accept putting kids who helped us fight for a playoffs spot aside to replace them by vets pretty much nobody wanted just because we are trying to make the playoffs and because apparently all teams do this. Well the Canes did not do it. They decided to fight the last battle and try to win the war with the guys who were responsible for the team winning the previous battles. We decided to dump our guys and acquire depth guys from teams outside the playoffs. We have been doing that for 25 years now. The fact people still defend this behaviors puzzle me.

 

[Justin11]

Link where Julien is blaming KK please!!

Lol you want a link? Scratching or demoting him is not enough for you?

 

[LaP]

Because:

1) Kotkaniemi is struggling, whether due to fatigue or loss of confidence.
2) Julien isn't thinking about development right now, he wants to make the playoffs.
3) Weal has been excellent in Montreal. Since he's started playing regularly, he's 6th in points, 5th in P/60, 1st in CF%, 1st in SCF% and 2nd in HDCF%. He's been one of the most productive deadline pickups this year.
4) Julien trusts Thompson more at center due to face-offs and experience. Not sure I agree, but for the 4th line I get it.

Kotk was not really struggling when CJ scratched him. He was not extraordinary nor he was great but he was doing what he did all season long. Ideal 3rd line center? Nope not at all. But we knew this when we added him to the lineup and we had to live with it. I always said and will always say if your kids are not good enough it's better to lose with them and draft new ones than icing vets not good enough. He is struggling since he returned from the scratch that's for sure.

Weal is also 5th in TOI. God after DD i never though we would need to go thru this again. Give TOI to most junior/ahl skilled players in this league and they'll do the points. Weal fits the bill. Great junior career and good stats in the AHL. Give this type of guys lot of TOI without the pressure to be the guy fingers will be pointed at in case of a failure and they'll do well. I mean for god sake it's been this way forever.

Since Weal played his 1st game with us (march 5th) he is 6th for the total TOI at ES and 2nd for the total TOI in PP. He is 4th for the total TOI (all situations). He is 5th for point. He is lower in points than he is in total TOI despite not playing in pk. The guy is paying a lot and with no pressure he's not the one people will blame if we are out. There's a reason Weal played for 3 teams this season.

Now maybe i'm wrong. Maybe he'll be the next Byron. Maybe he'll do great in playoffs and next season. I'll eat my crows if he does. But you can be 100% sure i'll trash MB and CJ is he doesn't cause that's the type of crap we have been doing for 25 years. And to be fair even if Weal is the next Byron it's not really what we need. Can't have 8 bottom 6 players in a team. Adding one more means we wont have any place for a kid next season and i don't see how it's a good thing.

If this team crumbles in playoffs with Weal playing top minutes and if CJ has the guts to put Weal aside for Kotk just before we are kicked out like he did in 2017 when he started the playoffs with King on the 3rd and replaced him by AG when it was already too late then i'll trash him and he'll deserve 100% of it.

 

[Captain Mountain]

1) Schechnikov also has the confidence of his coach. It's not like Kotk had been playing bad for 20 games when he was put aside. He had 5 points +3 the previous 10 games before being scratched against LA by CJ. He has 2 points -4 in 10 games since he returned in the lineup. Is it possible him being scratched affected his confidence? IMO the eye test says he was playing better before being scratched than after.

Svechnikov is playing better than Kotkaniemi right now. He also doesn't have the confidence of his coach, evidenced by how he's used and the fact he's playing his off-wing with such vaunted players like Wallmark and Martinook. If he was being played like his performance warranted, he'd be in Ferland's spot. He's also been shuffled around all season long.

as for Kotkaniemi's recent play, we cannot determine if it was because of being scratched or because fatigue is kicking in. Both are perfectly viable reasons.

2) That trade was a trade to improve the team mid to long term. What improving the team mid to long term has to do with trying to make the playoffs it would be like saying we tried to make the playoffs by trading AG for Domi. Doesn't make an once of a sense.

Wait, I'm confused. Are you arguing that trading for a better player doesn't factor into short term improvement? Like, they didn't make that trade to improve now?

Because their owner

3) That's the whole point. Did you even read the thread? Apparently we must accept putting kids who helped us fight for a playoffs spot aside to replace them by vets pretty much nobody wanted just because we are trying to make the playoffs and because apparently all teams do this. Well the Canes did not do it. They decided to fight the last battle and try to win the war with the guys who were responsible for the team winning the previous battles. We decided to dump our guys and acquire depth guys from teams outside the playoffs. We have been doing that for 25 years now. The fact people still defend this behaviors puzzle me.

Please don't invoke kids in plural when you're just talking about Kotkaniemi. Who else have they dumped and replaced with "vets pretty much nobody wanted"?

And, again, Kotkaniemi has struggled lately. And Weal has played really, really well. Its not going to hurt Kotka long term to face some adversity. Especially when we remember what expectations were for him this year in the first place.

I'm all for being critical of players, coaches and GMs, but if healthy scratching an 18 year old most didn't expect to make the NHL for a few games and playing him on the wing constitutes a dramatic reaction, then I think its more emotional than critical.

 

[Justin11]

Short term? It improves their chances to make the play-offs.

Long term? Its largely irrelevant since we're not talking about a meaningful sample size or period of time.

And you're right, Kotkaniemi wasn't the only one struggling then too. Which is why Drouin and Benn got pushed down the line-up and Weal and Kulak got pushed up.

It has nothing to do with being a dinosaur coach though, a purely data driven analysis of the last 15 games would have suggested doing the same.

For the record, I don't care if the Canadiens make the playoffs, but if the goal is to make the playoffs, Julien is for the most part making the right decisions given how players are playing. I think his faith in Thompson is misplaced and he hasn't always chosen the right 13th/14th forwards to play, but that isn't all that significant in the grand scheme of things.

To bring it back to Kotkaniemi, he's played a lot of hockey at a much higher level at a tough position. He's going to survive a couple of scratches and a game or 3 at the wing. Its not a big deal.

It does nothing to help the organization. If anything it will help Molson’s pocket provided they make the PO’s.

And, will it be just be a couple of game scratches and a short stint on the wing? History of this organization and current management tells me otherwise.

Anyhow, wishing the kid some luck, he will need it.

 

[ZUKI]

LOL

LOL

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

........lemme guess, career 4th line checker too??


Chucky doesn’t have the IQ though.....it’s apparent, even from my television set.

The guy has a great shot and a couple good dangle moves.....and that’s pretty much it.


We playing in Montreal therefore Julien has the last change


I see your 50$ and raise you 1000$

Hey look who's on wing tonight?

And you're basing this on ignoring the 76 games in which he played in this year, everyone of those games as a center...and focusing on the 45 mins during practice he played LW, to make this prognostication?

Make that bet for $50 and you got a deal.

Well look who's on wing tonight!

 

[Captain Mountain]

Kotk was not really struggling when CJ scratched him. He was not extraordinary nor he was great but he was doing what he did all season long. Ideal 3rd line center? Nope not at all. But we knew this when we added him to the lineup and we had to live with it. I always said and will always say if your kids are not good enough it's better to lose with them and draft new ones than icing vets not good enough. He is struggling since he returned from the scratch that's for sure.

Weal is also 5th in TOI. God after DD i never though we would need to go thru this again. Give TOI to most junior/ahl skilled players in this league and they'll do the points. Weal fits the bill. Great junior career and good stats in the AHL. Give this type of guys lot of TOI without the pressure to be the guy fingers will be pointed at in case of a failure and they'll do well. I mean for god sake it's been this way forever.

Since Weal played his 1st game with us (march 5th) he is 6th for the total TOI at ES and 2nd for the total TOI in PP. He is 4th for the total TOI (all situations). He is 5th for point. He is lower in points than he is in total TOI despite not playing in pk. The guy is paying a lot and with no pressure he's not the one people will blame if we are out. There's a reason Weal played for 3 teams this season.

Now maybe i'm wrong. Maybe he'll be the next Byron. Maybe he'll do great in playoffs and next season. I'll eat my crows if he does. But you can be 100% sure i'll trash MB and CJ is he doesn't cause that's the type of crap we have been doing for 25 years. And to be fair even if Weal is the next Byron it's not really what we need. Can't have 8 bottom 6 players in a team. Adding one more means we wont have any place for a kid next season and i don't see how it's a good thing.

If this team crumbles in playoffs with Weal playing top minutes and if CJ has the guts to put Weal aside for Kotk just before we are kicked out like he did in 2017 when he started the playoffs with King on the 3rd and replaced him by AG when it was already too late then i'll trash him and he'll deserve 100% of it.

You're way off if you think this situation is at all comparable to the Desharnais situation. Its one month, not multiple seasons. Its a different coach. Its a 3rd line center vs. a 1st line center. Weal is actually playing better than the young guys right now.

You're also probably not giving Weal enough credit for his play (and underplaying the gap in production from the top and bottom forwards right now). In the sample you provided, Weal is 124th in P/60. That's better than guys like ROR, Svechnikov, Pettersson and Kane. His underlying numbers a great too, even relative to the rest of the Habs.

I'm skeptical Weal will even be back next year. But even if he is, its unlikely he's going to be playing the same minutes, because there is still an element of luck to his performance and Kotkaniemi will be better after a good offseason.

And this team is probably not making the playoffs.

 

[jaffy27]

Hey look who's on wing tonight?

We talking about next season moving fwd....

 

[montreal]

Playing twenty games in early August and 57 games in the finish league is not comparable to the grind of an NHL season.

This whole ruined thing is just more made up drama and is total BS. So is saying he’s afraid to make a mistake (confidence). The reality is he is 18 and it is expected that he face adversity and will struggle at times.

This is nothing like the Galchenyuk situation. The kid showed more hockey IQ in first 10 games than 27 ever did.

So far they have done a good job managing KK.

What does it matter when he played the games, and how do you know he played 20 games in August? There season starts in Sept, so playing a few games in August at the u-20 summer camp/tournament would mean he was playing in liiga games within a month. I didn't say it was comparable to the grind of an NHL season, I just corrected you when you said he hasn't played this many games when he has.

I also never said anything about being ruined, or did I bring up anything about Galchenyuk.

 

[Habby4Life]

What does it matter when he played the games, and how do you know he played 20 games in August? There season starts in Sept, so playing a few games in August at the u-20 summer camp/tournament would mean he was playing in liiga games within a month. I didn't say it was comparable to the grind of an NHL season, I just corrected you when you said he hasn't played this many games when he has.

I also never said anything about being ruined, or did I bring up anything about Galchenyuk.

I know he played in August because I looked up the date. The point is the kid hasn’t faced this kind of grind. 80 games in Liiga & journey tourneys doesn’t compare to an nhl season correction or not. The kid looked and played tired and it is to be expected.

I didn’t say you brought up the other two points. It was the assertion of others who I was discussing this with. You jumped into the convo.

 

[montreal]

I know he played in August because I looked up the date. The point is the kid hasn’t faced this kind of grind. 80 games in Liiga & journey tourneys doesn’t compare to an nhl season correction or not. The kid looked and played tired and it is to be expected.

I didn’t say you brought up the other two points. It was the assertion of others who I was discussing this with. You jumped into the convo.

what was in August, other then the U-20 camp/tourny as that's only a few games. Again I never said it compared to an NHL season, not sure why you keep bringing this up. All I said was he has played more games which is true, no matter where or how they compare, he's played more games which you said he didn't.

If you quote me and then go on talk about things others were talking about it makes it look like I said those things.

 

[Habby4Life]

what was in August, other then the U-20 camp/tourny as that's only a few games. Again I never said it compared to an NHL season, not sure why you keep bringing this up. All I said was he has played more games which is true, no matter where or how they compare, he's played more games which you said he didn't.

If you quote me and then go on talk about things others were talking about it makes it look like I said those things.

Corrected when you add up all the tourneys and 56 games in liga he played a similar amount as last year - happy. My point stands.

Second point BS - I wasn’t talking about you and if anyone reads the thread they will understand that. It’s obvious I was talking about all the silly assertions made before. I pretty sure most on here can read and interpret a chain. No where in there did I say you made the assertion so your sensitivity is your issue.

 

[montreal]

Corrected when you add up all the tourneys and 56 games in liga he played a similar amount as last year - happy. My point stands.

Second point BS - I wasn’t talking about you and if anyone reads the thread they will understand that. It’s obvious I was talking about all the silly assertions made before. I pretty sure most on here can read and interpret a chain. No where in there did I say you made the assertion so your sensitivity is your issue.

57 games in liiga. Yes he did play more games last year then this year you are correct now.

It's not BS. It's just simple, don't add a bunch of stuff that I didn't talk about when quoting me just use the multi-quote so you can speak to them directly so there's no confusion.

 

[Andrei79]

I hope he focuses on getting faster and stronger this summer. No tournaments or camps.

 

[Habby4Life]

57 games in liiga. Yes he did play more games last year then this year you are correct now.

It's not BS. It's just simple, don't add a bunch of stuff that I didn't talk about when quoting me just use the multi-quote so you can speak to them directly so there's no confusion.

Yes he played similar amount of games. However, I stand by my assertion and my reasoning behind it. You jumped in with your gotcha moment, and I acknowledge the error. I'm sure nothing was being implied by the correction, it was purely a correcting a technically incorrect statement.

Second, I don't think there is any confusion and think your being sensitive which is your issue. I give other members the benefit of the doubt that they read the thread and understood what the previous discussions were. Also, I previously clarified that my take was not based on your assertions but meant toward the theme going on at the time.

I'm moving on, hope you can, but I don't really care either way. No need to waste anymore time on this.

 

[Naslund]

If Kotkaniemi is going to bust, the reason for it will not be being benched or downgraded to 4th line wing the last 3-4 games of his first season at 18.