Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 16

[flying v 604]

Reference for what 3rd Overall pick has looked like. Some superstars. Some busts. 65 point two way center would be pretty good here.

3rd Overall NHL Draft Picks
Year	Player	Pos.	Drafted From	Drafted By
2013	Jonathan Drouin	LW	Halifax (QMJHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2012	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia (OHL)	Montreal Canadiens
2011	Jonathan Huberdeau	C/LW	Saint John (QMJHL)	Florida Panthers
2010	Erik Gudbranson	D	Kingston (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2009	Matt Duchene	C	Brampton (OHL)	Colorado Avalanche
2008	Zach Bogosian	D	Peterborough (OHL)	Atlanta Thrashers
2007	Kyle Turris	C	Burnaby (BCHL)	Phoenix Coyotes
2006	Jonathan Toews	C	North Dakota (WCHA)	Chicago Blackhawks
2005	Jack Johnson	D	U.S. Junior National Team (Intl)	Carolina Hurricanes
2004	Cam Barker	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Chicago Blackhawks
2003	Nathan Horton	C	Oshawa Generals (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2002	Jay Bouwmeester	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Florida Panthers
2001	Alexandr Svitov	C	Omsk Avangard (Russia)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2000	Marian Gaborik	LW	Dukla Trencin (Slovak)	Minnesota Wild
1999	Henrik Sedin	C	Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL)	Vancouver Canucks
1998	Brad Stuart	D	Regina Pats (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1997	Olli Jokinen	C	HIFK Helsinki (FNL)	Los Angeles Kings
1996	J.P. Dumont	RW	Val-d'Or Foreurs (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1995	Aki-Petteri Berg	D	TPS Jrs. (Finland)	Los Angeles Kings
1994	Radek Bonk	C	Las Vegas Thunder (IHL)	Ottawa Senators
1993	Chris Gratton	C	Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
1992	Mike Rathje	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1991	Scott Niedermayer	D	Kamloops Blazers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1990	Keith Primeau	C	Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)	Detroit Red Wings
1989	Scott Thornton	C	Belleville Bulls (OHL)	Toronto Maple Leafs
1988	Curtis Leschyshyn	D	Saskatoon Blades (WHL)	Quebuc Nordiques
1987	Glen Wesley	D	Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)	Boston Bruins
1986	Neil Brady	C	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1985	Craig Wolanin	D	Kitchener Rangers (OHL)	New Jersey Devils
1984	Ed Olczyk	C	U.S. National Team (Intl)	Chicago Blackhawks
1983	Pat LaFontaine	C	Verdun Juniors (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1981	Bobby Carpenter	C	St. John's Prep [Mass H.S.]	Washington Capitals
1980	Denis Savard	F	Montreal Juniors (QMJHL)	Chicago Blackhawks

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

3rd overall is a tricky spot to pick unless it's a truly stacked top 3.

In a lot of drafts 3rd belongs to prospects who seem to bust a lot.
Not sure why but maybe it has to do with the team reaching on a kid who is flawed but if hits gets you a top two calibre? 5-10 seems to be far safer than the lottery a lot of the years.

 

[Hins77]

Yes he was, and he was a player right from the moment he put on a hawks uni at the age of 19 and never looked back.
24,34,25 goals his first three seasons. The guy was a stud right up until he left for medical reasons.

Bring up Toews doesnt help with your stance on KK, it actually shows just how bad this pick was/is.

Toews, OMG.

Ouff. I remember toews. He was playing at a young age to chicago. He was litteraly a mini patrice bergeron. I remember, espacially in playoff. He was a stud. He was playing against strong line. He turns that moribond team into a good one. There is no comparison to do with KK, hell no

 

[Habs Icing]

His skating technique is awful though and needs a lot of work. He needs more agility. Will he be a number 1 C? I don't believe it. Still on par to be a good No2.

I see you're an optimist. He doesn't have the offensive skill and hasn't shown it either so he's not on par for a #2. KK is another in a long long line of TT first-round specials. If there's a prospect with a toolbox of flawed tools be assured TT will pick him in the first round. 2007 being the exception.

KK has two major physical flaws. His balance and his reflexes. His balance is shit because this kid never brought his skating to an NHL level and his reflexes are those of a 70-year-old man. It takes him forever to execute a pass or a shot. His horrid balance may be a cause of his slow reflexes. I'm not sure.

Unless he corrects these two flaws - and time is quickly running out - he'll become an elite AHLer or European player.

 

[Habs Icing]

People like big centres and think they have all the potential in the world, but I agree with you. With the great players you see their talent even when they're not producing. Whether it's their agility, shot, release, IQ or offensive dangles they demonstrate their talent. When they do that, you can argue that points will come.

KK doesn't show that.

Bingo!!!!!

I understand the complaint if KK is executing marvelous passes and his linemates are klutzes fanning or missing the net. Then you can complain about KK saddled with dolts. But he doesn't do that. Even on the PP can anyone tell me when was the last time he pulled a decent play off that a sub-par linemate fluffed on.

 

[gillyguzzler]

KK has improved many facets of his game this year. I really liked his progress although more offensive production would have been nice.

But the last couple of weeks... Ayoye... Shades of last year's terrible struggles.

 

[Whitesnake]

I see you're an optimist. He doesn't have the offensive skill and hasn't shown it either so he's not on par for a #2. KK is another in a long long line of TT first-round specials. If there's a prospect with a toolbox of flawed tools be assured TT will pick him in the first round. 2007 being the exception.

KK has two major physical flaws. His balance and his reflexes. His balance is shit because this kid never brought his skating to an NHL level and his reflexes are those of a 70-year-old man. It takes him forever to execute a pass or a shot. His horrid balance may be a cause of his slow reflexes. I'm not sure.

Unless he corrects these two flaws - and time is quickly running out - he'll become an elite AHLer or European player.

When I see glimpses, it could mean 2 things. Either the guy will only ever show glimpses or....he'll become more consistent with the experience and opportunities (see better linemates) and will make those glimpses his way to play hockey. TODAY, I vote the latter.

 

[Whitesnake]

So 6 pts in 24 games and 28 in last 84 means nothing?? Good to know

Is it what I said? Reading skills sometimes.....Yeah, concerning. But a definitive and REAL assessment to a player? Never. If that continues, sure. But at 20 years old? Playing for a crap team? Playing with crap linemates? Playing with different players EVERY SINGLE GAME? And we want to solely look at numbers? Really?

 

[Whitesnake]

Show it, exactly! You can see it with NS but KK, nope!

Who are NS linemates vs JK linemates? Habs coaching fix Danault line, Suzuki line and THEN give the rest to JK.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Who are NS linemates vs JK linemates? Habs coaching fix Danault line, Suzuki line and THEN give the rest to JK.

None of this matters until both Suzuki and Kotkaniemi reach prime years and can show ability to be puck possession centers. We are ignoring the bigger issue and debating who should get more optertunity when it's been tried and the results are the same.

Come on guys. This is getting old.

 

[Whitesnake]

Was Jonathan Toews worth a 3rd overall pick? He mostly put up seasons around 65 points. Strong two way player...

Third overall picks are far from guarantees btw. You'll usually get a really good player but superstars are not the norm.

That list of yours is irrelevant. You are not though, trust me, I like you....lol. But the list is 'cause we are talking about 2 and 3 different types of leagues. Where at one point, you just needed to be big to be drafted. Tough guys were a must early. Then game changed. Are superstars the norm in the top 3? Define norm. I say it's pretty frequent. You could almost say top 5.

Toews was a fine 3rd overall pick 'cause he was penciled to be there almost all year long. He was not a project. Dominating the NCAA as a freshman. And yes points aren't the only thing. Leadership is too. And overall hockey player is. There is no way that JK could be compared to become what Toews already was when he was drafted. He was WAY more complete already at the time. Everybody and their mother would take Toews ahead of Kessel.

 

[Whitesnake]

None of this matters until both Suzuki and Kotkaniemi reach prime years and can show ability to be puck possession centers. We are ignoring the bigger issue and debating who should get more optertunity when it's been tried and the results are the same.

Come on guys. This is getting old.

It's been tried? When? Give JK Anderson and Toffoli. 10 games. And tell me how bad a hockey player JK is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's been tried? When? Give JK Anderson and Toffoli. 10 games. And tell me how bad a hockey player JK is.

I've seen enough to know that both Suzuki and KK need more time and they are still learning on the job. What wingers they they play with is a side debate and overlooks the bigger challenge where they are only 20 and 21.

 

[Habby4Life]

Who are NS linemates vs JK linemates? Habs coaching fix Danault line, Suzuki line and THEN give the rest to JK.

Ah, the linemates excuse. He’s had better linemates and PP time, he’s just not very good.

 

[Whitesnake]

EVERY draft projections had JK at least 1 or even 2 years away from the NHL.

Do you eat your f***ing banana when it's green? Or do you wait till it's yellow so it tasted better? If the banana is green and you eat it and you hate it, does it mean that if you would have waited for it to be yellow, it would still have been bad?

JK is a banana. HE WAS NOT READY! AND WHAT HE IS NOW IS NOT WHAT HE COULD BE LATER!!!!!!

 

[Habby4Life]

Ouff. I remember toews. He was playing at a young age to chicago. He was litteraly a mini patrice bergeron. I remember, espacially in playoff. He was a stud. He was playing against strong line. He turns that moribond team into a good one. There is no comparison to do with KK, hell no

Yep, not even the most blind optimist could make the comparison with a straight face.

 

[Whitesnake]

Ah, the linemates excuse. He’s had better linemates and PP time, he’s just not very good.

Yeah...excuses.....see I tried to win a F1 race with my Nissan Leaf. And I couldn't. Finished dead last. 2 hours after everybody. But hey....excuses right? I guess i should have won.....

 

[Zorba]

Yeah...excuses.....see I tried to win a F1 race with my Nissan Leaf. And I couldn't. Finished dead last. 2 hours after everybody. But hey....excuses right? I guess i should have won.....

28 pts in 84 games and 6 in the last 24 The line mate excuse is getting old.
Maybe he should learn how to stay on his feet first
It was blown draft. It’s simple to see. Tkachuk and Hughes are so much better that it’s frightening

 

[Whitesnake]

The standard for success shouldn't be if he was the best player available. Obviously that will be debated/discussed regardless. But him being what I think he'll be... that's well worthy of the pick.

Well in retrospect it shouldn't, you are right. Really tough and impossible frankly as a scout to finish a draft with the best at No1 and in order till the 7th round. BUT the standard of DRAFTING should be with thet idea to get the best player available. And it's clear that he was more a need than a BPA. And he became a need because of our inability to have C's since 2003. Our last great C was Plekanec. Thing of that 1 second.

So if they thought Tkachuk could become the BPA but we HAVE to go with JK because of needs, they made a huge mistake. I guess Timmins will NEVER say that cause the only revisionnist history that he goes with are the ones that makes him look good....unless....if he's fired at one point, he goes on with the story that while HE wanted Tkachuk, Bergevin TOLD him to get JK. That I can see......true or not.

 

[Habby4Life]

Yeah...excuses.....see I tried to win a F1 race with my Nissan Leaf. And I couldn't. Finished dead last. 2 hours after everybody. But hey....excuses right? I guess i should have won.....

Yes, more excuses.

He has been bad this year despite better linemates and PP time.

 

[Whitesnake]

28 pts in 84 games and 6 in the last 24 The line mate excuse is getting old.
Maybe he should learn how to stay on his feet first
It was blown draft. It’s simple to see. Tkachuk and Hughes are so much better that it’s frightening

That's it. 20 years. He's done? No matter the work he does during the summer to improve his skating and balance? Doesn't matter if he comes back with better linemates on a longer period of time ?

 

[Hannibal]

KK was atrocious last night

 

[Zorba]

That's it. 20 years. He's done? No matter the work he does during the summer to improve his skating and balance? Doesn't matter if he comes back with better linemates on a longer period of time ?

So he didn’t work on his skating last summer? Nevetr said he’s done. Not once. I said he’s Lars Eller at the max. Not a bad thing.

 

[Mrb1p]

None of this matters until both Suzuki and Kotkaniemi reach prime years and can show ability to be puck possession centers. We are ignoring the bigger issue and debating who should get more optertunity when it's been tried and the results are the same.

Come on guys. This is getting old.

He never got a consistent line. Why not let the kid create some chemistry with offensive wingers? The best lines in hockey all have that chemistry, they know where they are. For that to happen you need a bit of idle time.

EVERY draft projections had JK at least 1 or even 2 years away from the NHL.

Do you eat your f***ing banana when it's green? Or do you wait till it's yellow so it tasted better? If the banana is green and you eat it and you hate it, does it mean that if you would have waited for it to be yellow, it would still have been bad?

JK is a banana. HE WAS NOT READY! AND WHAT HE IS NOW IS NOT WHAT HE COULD BE LATER!!!!!!

Lol, thats a great metaphor.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He never got a consistent line. Why not let the kid create some chemistry with offensive wingers? The best lines in hockey all have that chemistry, they know where they are. For that to happen you need a bit of idle time..

I believe in KK just as much as you do. Right now, he's only 20 and he's not a star center. Growing pains.

Debating about what wingers he gets for wingers is valid and I've done that too but I think there is a bigger challenge. He's only 20 and he's not a puck possession center yet.

 

[Habs Icing]

Yeah...excuses.....see I tried to win a F1 race with my Nissan Leaf. And I couldn't. Finished dead last. 2 hours after everybody. But hey....excuses right? I guess i should have won.....

WS, your example actually works against your argument. Your example is telling us that your Nissan Leaf is KK. If you want to make the argument that KK needs better linemates then it's not the car but the crew. But then even an elite crew couldn't help you win a F1 in a Nissan Leaf.