Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 16

[Habby4Life]

So he didn’t work on his skating last summer? Nevetr said he’s done. Not once. I said he’s Lars Eller at the max. Not a bad thing.

For a 3rd ova, Lars Eller at the max is a very bad thing.

 

[Mrb1p]

I believe in KK just as much as you do. Right now, he's only 20 and he's not a star center. Growing pains

He will never be if he never gets the chance to be one.

You dont become a firefighter by sweeping floors.

 

[Ozmodiar]

KK has improved many facets of his game this year. I really liked his progress although more offensive production would have been nice.

But the last couple of weeks... Ayoye... Shades of last year's terrible struggles.

yeah, the last couple of weeks have been tough. ... since he moved back to center from the wing.

hoping he can keep learning as the season closes out, then have a productive offseason.

 

[Miller Time]

He makes so many smart subtle defensive moves throughout the game... His overall hockey sense is fantastic. As he physically matures he's going to turn into a very imposing 200 foot player.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He will never be if he never gets the chance to be one.

You dont become a firefighter by sweeping floors.

He's 20 and saying he will never get the chance is twisting it

 

[le_sean]

Lars is not a good comparison since KK has better vision and passing than him but Lars is about 50x stronger, a better skater and at this point a better puck protector.

I’m just not seeing it from KK. There are glimpses but it points to a 2nd line centre at best. Same with Suzuki. Certainly not the elite talent the Habs need down the middle. This is Koivu/Plekanec again, good but not good enough.

 

[Mrb1p]

He's 20 and saying he will never get the chance is twisting it

He's 20 but he's also swept floors for three years now. He needs to fight the fires.

250 games of not playing as an offensive center. He was rushed, now its time to admit he was rushed, and just live with it.

This team is not winning anyway.

 

[willzyix]

He's 20 but he's also swept floors for three years now. He needs to fight the fires.

250 games of not playing as an offensive center. He was rushed, now its time to admit he was rushed, and just live with it.

This team is not winning anyway.

His utility hasn’t been perfect, and I 100% agree that he was rushed, but his role this year hasn’t been terrible.

He’s getting PP time, he’s getting good linemates (in terms of statistics and offensive capabilities) and he’s getting good line mates (in terms of players that work well for him).

He has the opportunities to put up points, he just isn’t really. We can talk about his neutral zone and D zone starts, his ice time, his line mates, the offensive struggles of the team but at a certain point he needs to show that he deserves to be given more offensive responsibilities.

 

[Whitesnake]

WS, your example actually works against your argument. Your example is telling us that your Nissan Leaf is KK. If you want to make the argument that KK needs better linemates then it's not the car but the crew. BUt then even an elite crew couldn't help you win a F! in a Nissan Leaf.

You cannot give what you don't have. And in a line you are often as good as your linemates are. Right now, JK doesn't have what it takes. Whether it's through his own play, 'cause frankly, any SANE organization would have seen him in the NHL playing his 1st year THIS YEAR.....and he doesn't have the linemates to help him either. So he's not going to win. Just like a Leaf in a F1 race.

But hey...it probably wasn't my best one....go with the banana analogy instead....lol

 

[Habs Icing]

You cannot give what you don't have. And in a line you are often as good as your linemates are. Right now, JK doesn't have what it takes. Whether it's through his own play, 'cause frankly, any SANE organization would have seen him in the NHL playing his 1st year THIS YEAR.....and he doesn't have the linemates to help him either. So he's not going to win. Just like a Leaf in a F1 race.

But hey...it probably wasn't my best one....go with the banana analogy instead....lol

lol

Thought about it and I realized the Nissan Leaf is the better analogy. His fans are expecting a Nissan Leaf to win the F1. Even a better crew wouldn't help.

The banana analogy has sexual overtones. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Whitesnake]

Lars is not a good comparison since KK has better vision and passing than him but Lars is about 50x stronger, a better skater and at this point a better puck protector.

I’m just not seeing it from KK. There are glimpses but it points to a 2nd line centre at best. Same with Suzuki. Certainly not the elite talent the Habs need down the middle. This is Koivu/Plekanec again, good but not good enough.

I see that too.....and that might be the problem with the organizatoin. 5 top 10 picks over the Timmins years. Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, Sergachev, Price and Kostitsyn. Sergachev was traded for we know who. The only guy elite in that list might very well be Price. And that's a goalie. Where it has been proven times and times again, that you don't necessarily need that guy to be that kind of elite player.

I mean, the mediocrity of the Habs can be explained through a thousand reasons. But no elite players = no success. And even if you can find elite players outside the top 10 picks, we weren't able to except for Pacioretty....who's also gone.

This team SCREAMS for firing everybody and start from fresh with tanking and get top end players. This team needs Bedard. And tons of others. But that won't happen. And we will be stuck.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

He's 20 but he's also swept floors for three years now. He needs to fight the fires.

250 games of not playing as an offensive center. He was rushed, now its time to admit he was rushed, and just live with it.

This team is not winning anyway.

So he was rushed and now you want to rush him more? Also he has gotten chances up the lineup. He just didn’t do anything with them.

 

[WinterLion]

He's 20 but he's also swept floors for three years now. He needs to fight the fires.

250 games of not playing as an offensive center. He was rushed, now its time to admit he was rushed, and just live with it.

This team is not winning anyway.

What exactly do you mean by offensive center? Which linemates would you use? How much icetime?

 

[Tyson]

Lars is not a good comparison since KK has better vision and passing than him but Lars is about 50x stronger, a better skater and at this point a better puck protector.

I’m just not seeing it from KK. There are glimpses but it points to a 2nd line centre at best. Same with Suzuki. Certainly not the elite talent the Habs need down the middle. This is Koivu/Plekanec again, good but not good enough.

I doubt he becomes as good as either Plekanec or Koivu.

 

[Whitesnake]

I doubt he becomes as good as either Plekanec or Koivu.

I don't remember that people expected anything out of Pleks though. That was a graet pick with great development. Hey 1st year coach in the pros.....Claude Julien...lol

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

He's shown plenty of glimpses this year that he can be a very good top 6 centre. Every time he has a few bad games the hot takes come out in this thread that he'll be nothing more than a 3rd line centre, despite him already being a 3rd line centre as a 20 year old.

We just played 17 games in 30 days, including a trip to the West Coast. It is not a surprise that he looks fatigued and has been inconsistent, on top of that he has a new set of wingers every game.

 

[Tyson]

I don't remember that people expected anything out of Pleks though. That was a graet pick with great development. Hey 1st year coach in the pros.....Claude Julien...lol

Pleks played 2 full seasons in the AHL and was one of those players that was actually developed properly.

 

[CHfan1]

That's called stats watching. And nobody does that in order to make a real assessment on a player.

I agree it’s stats watching and that’s not the best way to evaluate prospects or young players. But it seems that a lot of posters do that, which is why I posted it.

KK may be in his 3rd season but he’s not even half a year older than Caufield who just played his second game. It’s going to take time for him to grow his game and mature as a player, probably 3-4 seasons.

Even if he’s not producing on the scoresheet he does a lot of the little things right. He’s getting better at faceoffs, he supports the defenceman down low well (especially on the breakout), he’s able to wait that extra second to find a passing lane, he wins a lot of the puck battles along the boards, and he leads the Habs in takeaways (and has the best takeaway/giveaway ratio with +12g.

Yes he still makes mistakes, he’s had a couple bad giveaways in the last 2 games, but I think as he gets older those mistakes will be reduced.

The one thing that hinders his game (and all the forwards games) is the lack of transition. He doesn’t have much space to work with in the neutral zone and while he gains entry into the offensive zone because of the Habs poor transition game.

 

[Tyson]

Lars is not a good comparison since KK has better vision and passing than him but Lars is about 50x stronger, a better skater and at this point a better puck protector.

I’m just not seeing it from KK. There are glimpses but it points to a 2nd line centre at best. Same with Suzuki. Certainly not the elite talent the Habs need down the middle. This is Koivu/Plekanec again, good but not good enough.

Lars has a solid reputation as a playoff performer though. He is the perfect 3rd line center.

 

[RandomTask26]

I don’t get the comments about linemates or time on ice. KK doesn’t have the balance or skating to do what he wants to do in the NHL. When he puts that together (which seems it’ll take longer than I expected) we’ll really see his potential

I think he’ll be really good eventually, just needs to focus on that lower body. He loses the puck a lot but when you’re off-balance so much, isn’t that expected?

 

[SakuKoivu11]

Brady Tkachuk would look good in a Habs jersey. Thanks Marc Bergevin.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Lars is not a good comparison since KK has better vision and passing than him but Lars is about 50x stronger, a better skater and at this point a better puck protector.

I’m just not seeing it from KK. There are glimpses but it points to a 2nd line centre at best. Same with Suzuki. Certainly not the elite talent the Habs need down the middle. This is Koivu/Plekanec again, good but not good enough.

Suzuki looks more and more like a second Plekanec every passing day. And I'm not saying this as a good thing.

 

[Miller Time]

You cannot give what you don't have. And in a line you are often as good as your linemates are. Right now, JK doesn't have what it takes. Whether it's through his own play, 'cause frankly, any SANE organization would have seen him in the NHL playing his 1st year THIS YEAR.....and he doesn't have the linemates to help him either. So he's not going to win. Just like a Leaf in a F1 race.

But hey...it probably wasn't my best one....go with the banana analogy instead....lol

Thing is, no one on the roster ahead of him "has what it takes"... and rather than do what any smart team does as far as nurturing confidence and growth in prized young players (by controlling what you can control, like consistent ice time/linemates and showing some patience with to-be-expected up's and downs... as we did/have with Suzuki pretty much all year), JKO for some odd reason has been treated like a spare part.

After CJ was fired, JKO started getting both more ice time and better linemates.... he translated that into 7 pts in 10 games... then had a 3-game stretch without a point (still 7pts/13 games, better than Tkachuk productivity ), and what happens? Our genius GM trades for an "upgrade" in Staal and our even brighter coach proceedes to slide JKO to the wing for a few games.

Kid takes it in stride, saying all the right things...

Many of the usual suspects around here dismissed that yo-yoing as no big deal...

and he's put up 5 pts in the 17 games since, while bouncing from C to W, and a revolving door of wingers almost every game since.

Some of you clearly have no concept of athlete development or confidence development in young professionals... i guess with no experience in the subject matter it would be easy to assume that if line switching works with no impact or difference on players related to their age/experience in EA sports, the same should be true in real life.

It isn't. Confidence takes time to build in most athletes. As the broadcast team (ex-players) spoke to last night as far as Thornton's impact in Toronto, there is absolutely something to experience as it relates to dealing with the grind of a season, fighting through slumps, elevating play to deal with late season/playoffs et. Not ALL young players struggle with that, just like not ALL veterans automatically develop it through experience alone.

But with a young player? No different than with a young/inexperienced person in any field, you adjust your expectations and create more space for nurturing/patience/confidence growth early on if you feel the talent is worth investing in. Later on, then sure, short leash and "next man up"...

but for now? To look at how JKO has been used and treated this year and be disappointed, or equate production inconsistency as a sign of his limitations with no appreciation or consideration of the difficult context he's been put in? that's just silly.

Just take a look at Ottawa. Remember how much some were laughing at them early on? Yet here we are late in the season, winners of 6 of their last 8 games, several young players playing with confidence and impact... guys who at various times during the year (including the darling Tkachuk) who went on dry spells as long as any JKO has seen this year WITHOUT their minutes getting slashed or being thrown into unecessary line blenders.

That stuff matters, even if some of you prefer to ignore it.

If you just watch his overall game, it's very obvious that:
- he's got good/great vision and hockey sense
- he competes hard in all phases of the game
- he's got above average set of tools
- he's awkward in the ways that a lanky youth whose skill/head are further advanced than his body when it comes to competing professionally
- he's extremmely coachable

those traits together, for a 20 year old playing regular NHL minutes, deservedly so, point unequivocally to a player with a huge amount of progression ahead of him.

That our mediocre roster needs more "right now" impact players both on offense and defense, has nothing to do with him. Replace Danault with a top-tier NHL C, and this entire conversation does not exist.
Put JKO on Ottawa and give him Tkachuk's leash and support, and the most likely outcome would be that their P/60, which is almost equal now (1.63 vs 1.6), would be far more in JKO's favour... opportunity & consistency matter.

 

[Zorba]

Thing is, no one on the roster ahead of him "has what it takes"... and rather than do what any smart team does as far as nurturing confidence and growth in prized young players (by controlling what you can control, like consistent ice time/linemates and showing some patience with to-be-expected up's and downs... as we did/have with Suzuki pretty much all year), JKO for some odd reason has been treated like a spare part.

After CJ was fired, JKO started getting both more ice time and better linemates.... he translated that into 7 pts in 10 games... then had a 3-game stretch without a point (still 7pts/13 games, better than Tkachuk productivity ), and what happens? Our genius GM trades for an "upgrade" in Staal and our even brighter coach proceedes to slide JKO to the wing for a few games.

Kid takes it in stride, saying all the right things...

Many of the usual suspects around here dismissed that yo-yoing as no big deal...

and he's put up 5 pts in the 17 games since, while bouncing from C to W, and a revolving door of wingers almost every game since.

Some of you clearly have no concept of athlete development or confidence development in young professionals... i guess with no experience in the subject matter it would be easy to assume that if line switching works with no impact or difference on players related to their age/experience in EA sports, the same should be true in real life.

It isn't. Confidence takes time to build in most athletes. As the broadcast team (ex-players) spoke to last night as far as Thornton's impact in Toronto, there is absolutely something to experience as it relates to dealing with the grind of a season, fighting through slumps, elevating play to deal with late season/playoffs et. Not ALL young players struggle with that, just like not ALL veterans automatically develop it through experience alone.

But with a young player? No different than with a young/inexperienced person in any field, you adjust your expectations and create more space for nurturing/patience/confidence growth early on if you feel the talent is worth investing in. Later on, then sure, short leash and "next man up"...

but for now? To look at how JKO has been used and treated this year and be disappointed, or equate production inconsistency as a sign of his limitations with no appreciation or consideration of the difficult context he's been put in? that's just silly.

Just take a look at Ottawa. Remember how much some were laughing at them early on? Yet here we are late in the season, winners of 6 of their last 8 games, several young players playing with confidence and impact... guys who at various times during the year (including the darling Tkachuk) who went on dry spells as long as any JKO has seen this year WITHOUT their minutes getting slashed or being thrown into unecessary line blenders.

That stuff matters, even if some of you prefer to ignore it.

If you just watch his overall game, it's very obvious that:
- he's got good/great vision and hockey sense
- he competes hard in all phases of the game
- he's got above average set of tools
- he's awkward in the ways that a lanky youth whose skill/head are further advanced than his body when it comes to competing professionally
- he's extremmely coachable

those traits together, for a 20 year old playing regular NHL minutes, deservedly so, point unequivocally to a player with a huge amount of progression ahead of him.

That our mediocre roster needs more "right now" impact players both on offense and defense, has nothing to do with him. Replace Danault with a top-tier NHL C, and this entire conversation does not exist.
Put JKO on Ottawa and give him Tkachuk's leash and support, and the most likely outcome would be that their P/60, which is almost equal now (1.63 vs 1.6), would be far more in JKO's favour... opportunity & consistency matter.

Lol. You make it sound like 5 pts in 17 games is good Byron has 7 pts in his last 17 games and he’s considered fodder.
5 pts. Wow. Low low standards. That’s a 27 pts pace. Awful

 

[le_sean]

Lars has a solid reputation as a playoff performer though. He is the perfect 3rd line center.

Sure but if we traded a 3rd overall pick for a 3rd line centre, the GM would be immediately fired. It’s disappointing. It was just another bad draft year to get a high pick, like 2012.