Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 16

[le_sean]

Suzuki looks more and more like a second Plekanec every passing day. And I'm not saying this as a good thing.

I liked Plekanec. He was just thrown in as a #1C for a few years which didn’t suit him. If he was behind a true #1, the team would have been much better.

 

[Zorba]

Sure but if we traded a 3rd overall pick for a 3rd line centre, the GM would be immediately fired. It’s disappointing. It was just another bad draft year to get a high pick, like 2012.

But it wasn’t a bad draft year. Tkachuk is a 1st line winger and Hughes will consistently put up 55-60 pts running the PP. Habs made the wrong pick

 

[Miller Time]

Lol. You make it sound like 5 pts in 17 games is good Byron has 7 pts in his last 17 games and he’s considered fodder.
5 pts. Wow. Low low standards. That’s a 27 pts pace. Awful

that you can't differentiate between the Byron and JKO says everything about how flawed your take is...

also, FYI, at one point this year Tkachuk had a 17 game stretch with 8 points... while playing 18-20min night on Ottawa's first line.... and I can pretty much guarantee even without looking it up that in that 17-game span, he played with far more consistent linemates than JKO did in his recent 17 game stretch.

context matters... even if you don't want to (or don't have the ability to?) see or understand it

 

[Zorba]

that you can't differentiate between the Byron and JKO says everything about how flawed your take is...

also, FYI, at one point this year Tkachuk had a 17 game stretch with 8 points... while playing 18-20min night on Ottawa's first line.

context matters.

Lol. Tkachuk has 18 assists. Kk has 20 pts. Context matters alright. You made it sound like 5 pts was good. I gave you an example of a shit player with more points in 17 games. Context mattes alright

 

[le_sean]

But it wasn’t a bad draft year. Tkachuk is a 1st line winger and Hughes will consistently put up 55-60 pts running the PP. Habs made the wrong pick

It was a bad year because you’d have to get one of those two to be really happy. The Top 15 is pretty weak overall.

But I agree about Tkachuk. People hate when he’s brought up because he’s ahead of KK physically so they deem it unfair. At the end he’s a 50 point power forward, which is what Anderson is and he’s loved. He’d be our best LW by a mile. The team would be a nightmare with Tkachuk, Anderson and Gallagher on separate lines.

Though I guess the argument could be made that we would have kept Domi if we had Tkachuk instead of KK.

 

[Miller Time]

Lol. Tkachuk has 18 assists. Kk has 20 pts. Context matters alright. You made it sound like 5 pts was good. I gave you an example of a shit player with more points in 17 games. Context mattes alright

5pts isn't "good" or "bad". It's a statistic. Without context, it is meaningless, like much of your take.

but since you love the point statistic so much... Consider simple facts:

Tkachuck scores 1.63 pts for every 60minutes of ice time he gets.
JKO scores 1.6 pts for every 60minutes of ice time he gets.
and is better defensively.
and has yet to be given top line minutes or linemate consistency
and plays a more difficult position
and is playing in a situation with far greater expectations and far shorter leash
and is 1 year younger

This time next year, would you care to bet on wether or not JKO is scoring at better than Brady's 1.63 p/60?

If he is, does your entire "we should've picked Brady" narrative get tossed out?

 

[Zorba]

5pts isn't "good" or "bad". It's a statistic. Without context, it is meaningless, like much of your take.

Lol. Dude you have nothing. Even comparing kk to Tkachuk is embarrassing.

 

[Zorba]

It was a bad year because you’d have to get one of those two to be really happy. The Top 15 is pretty weak overall.

But I agree about Tkachuk. People hate when he’s brought up because he’s ahead of KK physically so they deem it unfair. At the end he’s a 50 point power forward, which is what Anderson is and he’s loved. He’d be our best LW by a mile. The team would be a nightmare with Tkachuk, Anderson and Gallagher on separate lines.

Though I guess the argument could be made that we would have kept Domi if we had Tkachuk instead of KK.

Those 3 would make the other team miserable. Gallagher and Tkachuk is a dream

 

[le_sean]

that you can't differentiate between the Byron and JKO says everything about how flawed your take is...

also, FYI, at one point this year Tkachuk had a 17 game stretch with 8 points... while playing 18-20min night on Ottawa's first line.... and I can pretty much guarantee even without looking it up that in that 17-game span, he played with far more consistent linemates than JKO did in his recent 17 game stretch.

context matters... even if you don't want to (or don't have the ability to?) see or understand it

Context also matters when talking about Tkachuk. You make it seem like if he’s not scoring, he’s a non-factor. No, he’s noticeable each game. Beat the shit out of our lame ass captain who is supposedly a “man mountain.” Always in the middle of the play, disrupting defenders and goalies.

Not really sure what KK is doing if he’s not scoring. I guess he plays well defensively most of the time, but it’s not like he’s winning the Selke.

 

[Mrb1p]

His utility hasn’t been perfect, and I 100% agree that he was rushed, but his role this year hasn’t been terrible.

He’s getting PP time, he’s getting good linemates (in terms of statistics and offensive capabilities) and he’s getting good line mates (in terms of players that work well for him).

He has the opportunities to put up points, he just isn’t really. We can talk about his neutral zone and D zone starts, his ice time, his line mates, the offensive struggles of the team but at a certain point he needs to show that he deserves to be given more offensive responsibilities.

His utilisation is a smoke screen. He gets PP time but its always the 2nd PP, which gets 40ish seconds per and doesn't have time to set up as much as the god awful first PP.

He gets the scraps as linemates, Suzuki and Danault get the better, if theres something good left, it goes to KK, and the moment one of the other two Cs needs a linechange, they get it, KK then gets stuck with Armia, Lekhonen, Byron, Drouin.

He doesn't take many offensive draws, he doesn't get extended shifts in the offensive zone, he plays against the best lines/best pairings (or 2nd) while being with very meh players.

There has been moments he got good players, thats for sure. I always loved the play KK and Anderson brought, it was the best line anytime they hit the ice together, theyre big and they can impose their will on the offensive defense and Andersons speed benefits greatly from KKs vision and ability to take time and space, and vice-versa. But they rarely get strings of games to let chemistry build. Its also perfect line to insulate a slower or smaller player on the left wing, like Tatar or Caufield or Toffoli, but what ever. This duo is also one of the best on the team for GF/GA with 7 gf and 2 ga in about 100 minutes of play (Meaning about 8 full games.)

Really though, why isn't it ever the other way around ? Why can't the team show interest in the value of Kotkaniemi as a player ? Why is it they go lengths and lengths to make Danault and Suzuki the best they can be, but not Kotkaniemi ?

Clearly they've made the choices theyve made, they think Danault and Suzuki gives them the best chance now and in the future, or they think that Kotkaniemi will magically develop and take Danaults place, I don't know. Real world does not work this work and I certainly do not agree that they are better off with those two, but lets just say they are right... Why ?

Why spend a 3rd oa pick on him then ?
Why keep him around when his value was so high around the league ?
Why not move him when you realize he is not the player you want?

This is just typical asset management that we've seen from Bergevin, just leaking value all over the place and only ever getting value back when he gets lucky, like the Weise, Pac and Galchenyuk trades.

(The Domi trade may seem like it was a win, but can you imagine what his value was when he got 70 points ? Instead he had to wait, and wait for Domi to lose all value, luckily we got Anderson because of a contract dispute, but what if it was Anderson and a 1st round pick instead ? Same shitty ass asset management.)

Im not even getting into KK's ESP/60 production which pretty much shows that its 100% wrong to say he doesn't produce.

So he was rushed and now you want to rush him more? Also he has gotten chances up the lineup. He just didn’t do anything with them.

I want him to play minutes, meaningful ones, every game, no matter how good or bad he does, no matter the team, or the situation. This is how every f***ing good prospect ever has been developped.

Instead he gets to ride the pine, for 250 games and then Bergevin will blame X, Y and Z for it.

What exactly do you mean by offensive center? Which linemates would you use? How much icetime?

First PP, every game, 2+ minutes, the whole f***ing PP if you have to, offensive minutes late in games when you need a goal, offensive linemates ALL YEAR LONG, offensive draws and NZ draws, extended shifts, 6th man in, 3V3 hockey, steady linemates with whom he can build chemistry, even strength ice-time that doesn't get him cold and see him sit the whole period to play 7 the next.

Consistency.

I don’t get the comments about linemates or time on ice. KK doesn’t have the balance or skating to do what he wants to do in the NHL. When he puts that together (which seems it’ll take longer than I expected) we’ll really see his potential

I think he’ll be really good eventually, just needs to focus on that lower body. He loses the puck a lot but when you’re off-balance so much, isn’t that expected?

Then he shouldn't be in the NHL. If you can't handle him failing and learning and want him to come as a more or less finished product, let him simmer in the lower leagues, or better yet, pick someone else.

Stop defending this shit.

 

[angusyoung]

I don’t get the comments about linemates or time on ice. KK doesn’t have the balance or skating to do what he wants to do in the NHL. When he puts that together (which seems it’ll take longer than I expected) we’ll really see his potential

I think he’ll be really good eventually, just needs to focus on that lower body. He loses the puck a lot but when you’re off-balance so much, isn’t that expected?

So, in other-words, he's not ready for the NHL, nailed it!

 

[Breakfast of Champs]

Still, after 3 years, there is still so much uncertainty with him. He has good nights, but lets face it the overall play is not what many hoped for 2 years ago. He's not yet 21 and there are plenty of examples of players being given up on too early (Olli Jokinen, Zibanejad) so I think we need to wait this out a bit.

 

[Zorba]

Keep hearing about KKs supposedly great shot. 11 goals in 84 games. Where Is it

 

[angusyoung]

Suzuki looks more and more like a second Plekanec every passing day. And I'm not saying this as a good thing.

Why not Plecky was pretty good. If he can be a similar player that's fine.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

His utilisation is a smoke screen. He gets PP time but its always the 2nd PP, which gets 40ish seconds per and doesn't have time to set up as much as the god awful first PP.

He gets the scraps as linemates, Suzuki and Danault get the better, if theres something good left, it goes to KK, and the moment one of the other two Cs needs a linechange, they get it, KK then gets stuck with Armia, Lekhonen, Byron, Drouin.

He doesn't take many offensive draws, he doesn't get extended shifts in the offensive zone, he plays against the best lines/best pairings (or 2nd) while being with very meh players.

There has been moments he got good players, thats for sure. I always loved the play KK and Anderson brought, it was the best line anytime they hit the ice together, theyre big and they can impose their will on the offensive defense and Andersons speed benefits greatly from KKs vision and ability to take time and space, and vice-versa. But they rarely get strings of games to let chemistry build. Its also perfect line to insulate a slower or smaller player on the left wing, like Tatar or Caufield or Toffoli, but what ever. This duo is also one of the best on the team for GF/GA with 7 gf and 2 ga in about 100 minutes of play (Meaning about 8 full games.)

Really though, why isn't it ever the other way around ? Why can't the team show interest in the value of Kotkaniemi as a player ? Why is it they go lengths and lengths to make Danault and Suzuki the best they can be, but not Kotkaniemi ?

Clearly they've made the choices theyve made, they think Danault and Suzuki gives them the best chance now and in the future, or they think that Kotkaniemi will magically develop and take Danaults place, I don't know. Real world does not work this work and I certainly do not agree that they are better off with those two, but lets just say they are right... Why ?

Why spend a 3rd oa pick on him then ?
Why keep him around when his value was so high around the league ?
Why not move him when you realize he is not the player you want?

This is just typical asset management that we've seen from Bergevin, just leaking value all over the place and only ever getting value back when he gets lucky, like the Weise, Pac and Galchenyuk trades.

(The Domi trade may seem like it was a win, but can you imagine what his value was when he got 70 points ? Instead he had to wait, and wait for Domi to lose all value, luckily we got Anderson because of a contract dispute, but what if it was Anderson and a 1st round pick instead ? Same shitty ass asset management.)

Im not even getting into KK's ESP/60 production which pretty much shows that its 100% wrong to say he doesn't produce.



I want him to play minutes, meaningful ones, every game, no matter how good or bad he does, no matter the team, or the situation. This is how every f***ing good prospect ever has been developped.

Instead he gets to ride the pine, for 250 games and then Bergevin will blame X, Y and Z for it.



First PP, every game, 2+ minutes, the whole f***ing PP if you have to, offensive minutes late in games when you need a goal, offensive linemates ALL YEAR LONG, offensive draws and NZ draws, extended shifts, 6th man in, 3V3 hockey, steady linemates with whom he can build chemistry, even strength ice-time that doesn't get him cold and see him sit the whole period to play 7 the next.

So f*** every other player on the team then?

And lol, he hasn’t been benched he’s been in the top 9 getting regular shifts with talented players and getting steady PP minutes to boot. At a certain point it’s up to the player to do something with the opportunities he does get, rather than just spoon feed him more opportunities.

 

[Miller Time]

Context also matters when talking about Tkachuk. You make it seem like if he’s not scoring, he’s a non-factor. No, he’s noticeable each game. Beat the shit out of our lame ass captain who is supposedly a “man mountain”. Always in the middle of the play, disrupting defenders and goalies.

and on the ice for far more goals against his team than his team is able to score...

Tkachuck is a very good, even great young player. No issue with him and would love to have him on our roster... even if i don't agree about the impact of his fighting or "truckulence", overstated as it almost always is.

But re-draft? I'd still take JKO quite easily. Higher ceiling in a more important position. In 5 years, maybe Brady takes his game to a completely different level and is a 40 goal, physically imposing winger, and JKO an Eller clone... in that case i'd gladly admit i was wrong. Time will tell.

For right now though? These hyper-critical, "he's a 3rd line C tops and wasted top-3 pick" takes are so silly and ungrounded, it's laughable.

 

[Mrb1p]

So f*** every other player on the team then?

And lol, he hasn’t been benched he’s been in the top 9 getting regular shifts with talented players and getting steady PP minutes to boot. At a certain point it’s up to the player to do something with the opportunities he does get, rather than just spoon feed him more opportunities.

He does, he produces as much per 60 as your darling Tkachuk, and yet...

The fact is, he's clearly not a priority on this team, not offensively, not defensively, he's just an afterthought. He's like 10th in the forward pecking order.

When is the last time the line-up was change to cater to Kotkaniemi like it has been for Danault ?
When is the last time he got first PP ?
When is the last time he played the most minutes ?
When is the last time his line was NOT broken up the moment things didn't go well on other lines ?
When is the last time that his line was allowed to blossom into a good line rather than just be discarded after one meh game?

He was rushed into a bad situation and they never gave him any of the tools to succeed, just f*** it and trade him away, cut your losses.

 

[Mrb1p]

and on the ice for far more goals against his team than his team is able to score...

Tkachuck is a very good, even great young player. No issue with him and would love to have him on our roster... even if i don't agree about the impact of his fighting or "truckulence", overstated as it almost always is.

But re-draft? I'd still take JKO quite easily. Higher ceiling in a more important position. In 5 years, maybe Brady takes his game to a completely different level and is a 40 goal, physically imposing winger, and JKO an Eller clone... in that case i'd gladly admit i was wrong. Time will tell.

For right now though? These hyper-critical, "he's a 3rd line C tops and wasted top-3 pick" takes are so silly and ungrounded, it's laughable.

To be fair, Tom Wilson and Lars Eller both have very similar value to the capitals.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

He does, he produces as much per 60 as your darling Tkachuk, and yet...

The fact is, he's clearly not a priority on this team, not offensively, not defensively, he's just an afterthought. He's like 10th in the forward pecking order.

When is the last time the line-up was change to cater to Kotkaniemi like it has been for Danault ?
When is the last time he got first PP ?
When is the last time he played the most minutes ?
When is the last time his line was NOT broken up the moment things didn't go well on other lines ?
When is the last time that his line was allowed to blossom into a good line rather than just be discarded after one meh game?

He was rushed into a bad situation and they never gave him any of the tools to succeed, just f*** it and trade him away, cut your losses.

He’s been given opportunities to show what he can do and has done shit all with them.

He shows something consistently, he’ll get more opportunities. That’s how life works.

 

[Miller Time]

He’s been given opportunities to show what he can do and has done shit all with them.

He shows something consistently, he’ll get more opportunities. That’s how life works.

must be nice living in that fantasy world!

 

[angusyoung]

Can see why Columbus wanted Suzuki in the PLD deal now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

But it wasn’t a bad draft year. Tkachuk is a 1st line winger and Hughes will consistently put up 55-60 pts running the PP. Habs made the wrong pick

Maybe but we drafted him as a long term center prospect so at age 20, are we at the long term point yet? I think not. Most of us said that others will be better faster than KK when we drafted him.

It's too early to act like experts but we can guess

 

[Zorba]

Can see why Columbus wanted Suzuki in the PLD deal now.

I like PLD but trading him for Suzuki woulda been a lateral move. He’d be an upgrade on kk

 

[Habby4Life]

Can see why Columbus wanted Suzuki in the PLD deal now.

No doubt, why would they trade PLD for our trash. They don't want a bust in return.

 

[le_sean]

and on the ice for far more goals against his team than his team is able to score...

Tkachuck is a very good, even great young player. No issue with him and would love to have him on our roster... even if i don't agree about the impact of his fighting or "truckulence", overstated as it almost always is.

But re-draft? I'd still take JKO quite easily. Higher ceiling in a more important position. In 5 years, maybe Brady takes his game to a completely different level and is a 40 goal, physically imposing winger, and JKO an Eller clone... in that case i'd gladly admit i was wrong. Time will tell.

For right now though? These hyper-critical, "he's a 3rd line C tops and wasted top-3 pick" takes are so silly and ungrounded, it's laughable.

How is it laughable? His skating has barely improved and he takes too long to make decisions with the puck on his stick. His shot is hard but he can’t release it before a defender gets a stick on the puck or telegraph it so much the goalie has no trouble saving it. I expect the strength to increase and not to fall over all the time, but the other two are not going to get much better if at all. To me it indicates a flawed 2nd line centre. If you’re happy with that, fine. To me it’s two disappointments by Timmins at 3rd overall. It’s inexcusable, combined with the constant 1st round failures from 2010-2017.