Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 16

[Zorba]

Sure you can. You just need players to replace them. The Wings had tons of flops but Yzerman was an elite pick at 4th overall. If you land one superstar you're way ahead of the game. Look how good we were with Subban and Price. Two guys who took what should've been a mediocre club to first place finishes.

It certainly makes things harder but we've got Caufield and Suzuki on the way up. Romanov looks like he'll be really good too. Cupboard isn't bare.

Caufield isn’t a centre. Unless the middle drastically improves , mediocrity is Where the habs will remain

 

[Zorba]

Hate to say it, they swung and missed! It will set them back and we will get reminded of it every time that trash guy in Ott puts up his 20/30+

They picked the wrong player. I honestly don’t care what other say about the pick
Hughes and Tkachuk are a country mile better than KK

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Caufield isn’t a centre. Unless the middle drastically improves , mediocrity is Where the habs will remain

Sure.

But shouldn't we wait until they're at least 23 before declaring that they'll never be anything more than a 3rd line center?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I don't understand most of the comparisons with KK. Did people really expect Barkov ? Guys upside, aside from one enthusiastic poster, was always 60 points high energy/physical two way center. The debate was, from the start, wether that warranted the third pick considering picks 3-12 were essentially neck and neck in talent, with no apparent elite player past Svechnikov. Never saw him as an 80 point guy. Maybe 70 if everything went perfectly. But, he was a long term project to reach that upside. He needed work on the details of his game. No one can genuinely say he's been handled accordingly, when considering these factors.

You answer the debate in this post. The fact he was a long term project to maybe be a two way 60 point guy means he wasn’t worth the 3rd pick.

 

[Habby4Life]

They picked the wrong player. I honestly don’t care what other say about the pick
Hughes and Tkachuk are a country mile better than KK

I agree, it’s undeniable. Forget the stats, just watch the other two and it’s obvious.

 

[David Suzuki]

Hughes and Tkachuk both look like they're going to be great players regardless. Shouldn't affect how we view KK though.

Sure just frustrating sometimes but you're right

 

[Zorba]

Sure.

But shouldn't we wait until they're at least 23 before declaring that they'll never be anything more than a 3rd line center?

We can wait all You want. It won’t matter. This team is so poorly constructed its gonna be bad for many year. If they make the playoffs this year, big if, it will be the last time for a long while

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You answer the debate in this post. The fact he was a long term project to maybe be a two way 60 point guy means he wasn’t worth the 3rd pick.

Was Jonathan Toews worth a 3rd overall pick? He mostly put up seasons around 65 points. Strong two way player...

Third overall picks are far from guarantees btw. You'll usually get a really good player but superstars are not the norm.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We can wait all You want. It won’t matter.

Hmmm... yeah, it does matter. Bailing on 20 year olds with potential isn't a good idea. I'd rather see it through.

This team is so poorly constructed its gonna be bad for many year. If they make the playoffs this year, big if, it will be the last time for a long while

It's poorly constructed for sure. But who the hell knows what happens going forward? Depends on if MB comes back or not.

Either way, too soon to write this guy off.

 

[Andrei79]

You answer the debate in this post. The fact he was a long term project to maybe be a two way 60 point guy means he wasn’t worth the 3rd pick.

I feel there's quite a bit more nuance around the pick, but I don't mind if anyone sees it that way. To ignore context and his actual upside regarding his play right now doesn't make any sense to me however.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Reference for what 3rd Overall pick has looked like. Some superstars. Some busts. 65 point two way center would be pretty good here.

3rd Overall NHL Draft Picks
Year	Player	Pos.	Drafted From	Drafted By
2013	Jonathan Drouin	LW	Halifax (QMJHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2012	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia (OHL)	Montreal Canadiens
2011	Jonathan Huberdeau	C/LW	Saint John (QMJHL)	Florida Panthers
2010	Erik Gudbranson	D	Kingston (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2009	Matt Duchene	C	Brampton (OHL)	Colorado Avalanche
2008	Zach Bogosian	D	Peterborough (OHL)	Atlanta Thrashers
2007	Kyle Turris	C	Burnaby (BCHL)	Phoenix Coyotes
2006	Jonathan Toews	C	North Dakota (WCHA)	Chicago Blackhawks
2005	Jack Johnson	D	U.S. Junior National Team (Intl)	Carolina Hurricanes
2004	Cam Barker	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Chicago Blackhawks
2003	Nathan Horton	C	Oshawa Generals (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2002	Jay Bouwmeester	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Florida Panthers
2001	Alexandr Svitov	C	Omsk Avangard (Russia)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2000	Marian Gaborik	LW	Dukla Trencin (Slovak)	Minnesota Wild
1999	Henrik Sedin	C	Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL)	Vancouver Canucks
1998	Brad Stuart	D	Regina Pats (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1997	Olli Jokinen	C	HIFK Helsinki (FNL)	Los Angeles Kings
1996	J.P. Dumont	RW	Val-d'Or Foreurs (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1995	Aki-Petteri Berg	D	TPS Jrs. (Finland)	Los Angeles Kings
1994	Radek Bonk	C	Las Vegas Thunder (IHL)	Ottawa Senators
1993	Chris Gratton	C	Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
1992	Mike Rathje	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1991	Scott Niedermayer	D	Kamloops Blazers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1990	Keith Primeau	C	Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)	Detroit Red Wings
1989	Scott Thornton	C	Belleville Bulls (OHL)	Toronto Maple Leafs
1988	Curtis Leschyshyn	D	Saskatoon Blades (WHL)	Quebuc Nordiques
1987	Glen Wesley	D	Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)	Boston Bruins
1986	Neil Brady	C	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1985	Craig Wolanin	D	Kitchener Rangers (OHL)	New Jersey Devils
1984	Ed Olczyk	C	U.S. National Team (Intl)	Chicago Blackhawks
1983	Pat LaFontaine	C	Verdun Juniors (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1981	Bobby Carpenter	C	St. John's Prep [Mass H.S.]	Washington Capitals
1980	Denis Savard	F	Montreal Juniors (QMJHL)	Chicago Blackhawks

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I feel there's quite a bit more nuance around the pick, but I don't mind if anyone sees it that way. To ignore context and his actual upside regarding his play right now doesn't make any sense to me however.

I’ll take a home run swing for a true elite talent. But to pass on a sure fire stud like Tkachuk to take a long term project who’s potential was that of a 60 point guy? With the 3rd pick? Stupid.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Reference for what 3rd Overall pick has looked like. Some superstars. Some busts. 65 point two way center would be pretty good here.

3rd Overall NHL Draft Picks
Year	Player	Pos.	Drafted From	Drafted By
2013	Jonathan Drouin	LW	Halifax (QMJHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2012	Alex Galchenyuk	C	Sarnia (OHL)	Montreal Canadiens
2011	Jonathan Huberdeau	C/LW	Saint John (QMJHL)	Florida Panthers
2010	Erik Gudbranson	D	Kingston (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2009	Matt Duchene	C	Brampton (OHL)	Colorado Avalanche
2008	Zach Bogosian	D	Peterborough (OHL)	Atlanta Thrashers
2007	Kyle Turris	C	Burnaby (BCHL)	Phoenix Coyotes
2006	Jonathan Toews	C	North Dakota (WCHA)	Chicago Blackhawks
2005	Jack Johnson	D	U.S. Junior National Team (Intl)	Carolina Hurricanes
2004	Cam Barker	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Chicago Blackhawks
2003	Nathan Horton	C	Oshawa Generals (OHL)	Florida Panthers
2002	Jay Bouwmeester	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	Florida Panthers
2001	Alexandr Svitov	C	Omsk Avangard (Russia)	Tampa Bay Lightning
2000	Marian Gaborik	LW	Dukla Trencin (Slovak)	Minnesota Wild
1999	Henrik Sedin	C	Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik (SEL)	Vancouver Canucks
1998	Brad Stuart	D	Regina Pats (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1997	Olli Jokinen	C	HIFK Helsinki (FNL)	Los Angeles Kings
1996	J.P. Dumont	RW	Val-d'Or Foreurs (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1995	Aki-Petteri Berg	D	TPS Jrs. (Finland)	Los Angeles Kings
1994	Radek Bonk	C	Las Vegas Thunder (IHL)	Ottawa Senators
1993	Chris Gratton	C	Kingston Frontenacs (OHL)	Tampa Bay Lightning
1992	Mike Rathje	D	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	San Jose Sharks
1991	Scott Niedermayer	D	Kamloops Blazers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1990	Keith Primeau	C	Niagara-Falls Thunder (OHL)	Detroit Red Wings
1989	Scott Thornton	C	Belleville Bulls (OHL)	Toronto Maple Leafs
1988	Curtis Leschyshyn	D	Saskatoon Blades (WHL)	Quebuc Nordiques
1987	Glen Wesley	D	Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)	Boston Bruins
1986	Neil Brady	C	Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL)	New Jersey Devils
1985	Craig Wolanin	D	Kitchener Rangers (OHL)	New Jersey Devils
1984	Ed Olczyk	C	U.S. National Team (Intl)	Chicago Blackhawks
1983	Pat LaFontaine	C	Verdun Juniors (QMJHL)	New York Islanders
1981	Bobby Carpenter	C	St. John's Prep [Mass H.S.]	Washington Capitals
1980	Denis Savard	F	Montreal Juniors (QMJHL)	Chicago Blackhawks

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Doesn’t mean it was the right pick.

 

[Andrei79]

I’ll take a home run swing for a true elite talent. But to pass on a sure fire stud like Tkachuk to take a long term project who’s potential was that of a 60 point guy? With the 3rd pick? Stupid.

Depends on the team. A 6'3" center who can crash and bang, dominate both ways, can very certainly be worth the third pick in a year like 2018. On the Habs ? Clearly, I've been fooled enough times to now know the NHL can't miss guy is the right choice 10/10 times, especially when that guy is a 6'4" powerforward. This team just doesn't have the mindset, patience or personnel ressources to draft projects.

 

[Habby4Life]

Was Jonathan Toews worth a 3rd overall pick? He mostly put up seasons around 65 points. Strong two way player...

Third overall picks are far from guarantees btw. You'll usually get a really good player but superstars are not the norm.

Yes he was, and he was a player right from the moment he put on a hawks uni at the age of 19 and never looked back.
24,34,25 goals his first three seasons. The guy was a stud right up until he left for medical reasons.

Bring up Toews doesnt help with your stance on KK, it actually shows just how bad this pick was/is.

Toews, OMG.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Doesn’t mean it was the right pick.

Honestly... it doesn't matter if it was the right pick. That's what you don't get.

Let's say he's never going to be Tkachuk or Quinn... okay, so be it. It's not uncommon for a 3rd overall to have better players drafted later. That doesn't mean he wasn't worthy of the pick or that he sucks.

The idea that a 65 point two way center isn't worthy of a third is just flat out wrong. If you look at what a 3rd overall looks like from 80-13, there were about 7 star players drafted. A 65 point two way player isn't bad by any stretch.

Look at Toews. 3rd overall. Two guys drafted immediately after him got more points. They could've had Kessel or Backstrom. Claude Giroux came later too. Even if we assume they were better players (not saying they were) would it have been a bad pick? I don't think so. A more extreme example: Pat Lafontaine was drafted at 3rd overall. HOFer who was one of the best players in the league at one point. Was he worth the 3rd? Of course he was. Was he still worth the 3rd with Steve Yzerman coming in at 4th? Absolutely. Yzerman's success doesn't change this one iota. Did they draft the wrong guy? I mean... I don't think so. It's not how I'd look at it anyway. They got a HOFer out of it. Not being the best player doesn't mean it wasn't a really, really good pick.

The standard for success shouldn't be if he was the best player available. Obviously that will be debated/discussed regardless. But him being what I think he'll be... that's well worthy of the pick.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes he was, and he was a player right from the moment he put on a hawks uni at the age of 19 and never looked back.
24,34,25 goals his first three seasons. The guy was a stud right up until he left for medical reasons.

Bring up Toews doesnt help with your stance on KK, it actually shows just how bad this pick was/is.

Toews, OMG.

Don't move the goalposts. You're defending a post that argued a two way 60 something point guy wasn't worth a 3rd overall pick. I'm just showing you how ridiculous your stance is.

 

[Habby4Life]

Don't move the goalposts. You're defending a post that argued a two way 60 something point guy wasn't worth a 3rd overall pick. I'm just showing you how ridiculous your stance is.

If I saw even a little JT in Kk I’d be much more positive about this pick. However, I don’t, and I don’t even think he will be a 60 point guy.

To me that’s a wasted 3rd ova when there were better picks avaliabe who are miles ahead of KK in performance and development.

 

[Mrb1p]

lol

Eloquent

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If I saw even a little JT in Kk I’d be much more positive about this pick. However, I don’t, and I don’t even think he will be a 60 point guy.

Fair enough. But that's not the post I was replying to.

To me that’s a wasted 3rd ova when there were better picks avaliabe who are miles ahead of KK in performance and development.

It's not a waste if he is in fact a two way 65 point player who drives the play in the opposing zone. Those are very valuable guys to have.

 

[Mrb1p]

Revisionist history at best in here.

Kotkaniemis biggest strength coming into the draft was his IQ and now hes dumb as Eller.

Ya love to see it

 

[Habby4Life]

It's not a waste if he is in fact a two way 65 point player who drives the play in the opposing zone. Those are very valuable guys to have.

Well, from what I’ve seen KK ain’t going to be that guy.

NS will be!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well, from what I’ve seen KK ain’t going to be that guy.

NS will be!

Well, I hope you don't mind if the rest of us wait to see how this pans out.

I get that some people have strong opinions on players and where they'll be. But to talk with the degree of certainty that you are here just makes absolutely no sense to me at all. This kid has YEARS to improve. He's going to get bigger and stronger. I don't think that should be in question. I don't see how his game doesn't improve a lot from where it is now. And where it is now is already pretty good in terms of controlling the game.

He's driving play in the offensive zone at 20. He was doing it at... 18. The kid has talent man. It may not manifest itself into points but he's already a pretty good hockey player to begin with.

 

[Habby4Life]

Well, I hope you don't mind if the rest of us wait to see how this pans out.

I get that some people have strong opinions on players and where they'll be. But to talk with the degree of certainty that you are here just makes absolutely no sense to me at all. This kid has YEARS to improve. He's going to get bigger and stronger. I don't think that should be in question. I don't see how his game doesn't improve a lot from where it is now. And where it is now is already pretty good in terms of controlling the game.

He's driving play in the offensive zone at 20. He was doing it at... 18. The kid has talent man. It may not manifest itself into points but he's already a pretty good hockey player to begin with.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. There are many points you just made about his current play that I disagree with.

We will have to leave it at agree to disagree.

 

[robert ethan]

Jasper is as goofy dumb as Scherbak was/is.