Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[Whitesnake]

A LOT of posters said "anyone but Tkachuk!", "I'll stop following this team if they draft Tkachuk!"

The reason? His numbers on paper were much lower than Zadina. Plus, he's a winger, and we were starved for centers. Plus we had just gone big with Alzner, Weber, etc... and the league had just gotten much faster with the hooking to the hands being enforced during 2017-2018. Consequently many power forwards like Lucic were not able to keep up with the new NHL.

I wasn't one of these people. I said there must be a reason the scouts have him so high. I was just hoping we'd take the best player available, whether that was KK, Tkachuk, Zadina, Wahlstrom or Dobson. Anyways whatever becomes of KK, we no longer have any glaring positional needs. I hope we draft for top talent, not position, going forward.

The debate was FOR NUMBER 3. And nobody believes that they'd stop following the Habs if the Habs would draft Tkachuk. And even if possible, they'd be right back this year. The great McCagg, who kept saying that JK had to be the player, was saying, 5 months prior to the draft, that Zadina was a future 40-goal scorer. People aren't dumb enough to just compare stats and don't take into account the league they play in. What played against Tkachuk was the number of goals he scored. That despite his IQ, he wasn't driving the play that much. That he seemed undisciplined, not the best in the defensive zone and some steps needed in his skating. Was surely still a top 10 pick, yet was probably not, at least in my limited view, not the pick to go with. Yet....Timmins didn't ask for my vote. He could have drafted him. I would have not liked it. And people could have said that again, I was wrong, and Timmins was right. Win-win.

As far as drafting for needs, again, stupid. We NEEDED a C, yet, we don't need him at C 2 years later. We would always go BPA, you would have turn out with a C at one point. You would have gotten Giroux instead of Fischer. You could have gotten Kuznetsov instead of Tinordi. Somehow, the same scout who thought JK had to be top 3 because mostly of his U-18, didn't watch Kuznetsov at the U-18? Go BPA, you will eventually add players on every position. If you can't....you trade the position you have too much for a need you have.

 

[Frozenice]

A LOT of posters said "anyone but Tkachuk!", "I'll stop following this team if they draft Tkachuk!"

The reason? His numbers on paper were much lower than Zadina. Plus, he's a winger, and we were starved for centers. Plus we had just gone big with Alzner, Weber, etc... and the league had just gotten much faster with the hooking to the hands being enforced during 2017-2018. Consequently many power forwards like Lucic were not able to keep up with the new NHL.

I wasn't one of these people. I said there must be a reason the scouts have him so high. I was just hoping we'd take the best player available, whether that was KK, Tkachuk, Zadina, Wahlstrom or Dobson. Anyways whatever becomes of KK, we no longer have any glaring positional needs. I hope we draft for top talent, not position, going forward.

This sums up my impressions of the draft discussion here that year, I didn’t feel like entering into the discussion going on at the time, there was no rationalizing with the posters here. We’re going to draft who we’re going to draft, it’s no big deal.

 

[webersshot]

If Kokta goes way of Galchenyuk makes 17 drafts and Timmins never got a center. Passed on many good ones. ROR, Giroux, Bergeron, Getzlaf to name a few.

There's no comparison in those two players.

 

[DangerDave]

I really hope KK gets loaned for the juniors. He would no doubt crush everyone and right now, a little confidence booster may be just what he'd needs.

 

[Deebs]

I really hope KK gets loaned for the juniors. He would no doubt crush everyone and right now, a little confidence booster may be just what he'd needs.

Not sure he would crush, but I'd expect him to have a very productive tourney

 

[Tighthead]

It's gonna be VERY tough for KK to come back from this year struggles and injuries. Mentally and physically, it's gonna be a huge challenge for him and the team.

And the team has now burned two cost controlled seasons with both underwhelming production and improvements.

I still believe in the player but the team hasn’t done him any favours.

Classic example of failing to plan is planning to fail.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

And the team has now burned two cost controlled seasons with both underwhelming production and improvements.

I still believe in the player but the team hasn’t done him any favours.

Classic example of failing to plan is planning to fail.

On the plus side, he should be cheap for his second contract

 

[TheBuriedHab]

This kid was always going to be a project no matter what league he played in. Tough sophomore season so far but I still believe when all is said and done, we will look back and be happy we picked JK. Skill and IQ is there, it's just the physical maturity and that will come with time for him. Still not worried.

 

[Whitesnake]

This kid was always going to be a project no matter what league he played in. Tough sophomore season so far but I still believe when all is said and done, we will look back and be happy we picked JK. Skill and IQ is there, it's just the physical maturity and that will come with time for him. Still not worried.

If the kid is a project, you treat him as one. You don't use him as if he was already ready. A project don't play in the NHL unless you are a team who want to lose. Insanely stupid, but this management is used to it. Still time to go. Still years to come. But now...you could add Zadina to the mix of players who are alreaday trending up and probably moreso than JK. Like Tkachuk, like Hughes. Time will tell. But he better pick it up next year. In the meantime, get the kid IN LAVAL. And use the hell out of him offensively.

 

[sandviper]

On the plus side, he should be cheap for his second contract

in all seriousness, this is true. Before the start of this season, I was concerned of a Kotkaniemi extension of 6 x $6M and Domi getting 6 x $9m. Not so much anymore.

 

[DAChampion]

This kid was always going to be a project no matter what league he played in. Tough sophomore season so far but I still believe when all is said and done, we will look back and be happy we picked JK. Skill and IQ is there, it's just the physical maturity and that will come with time for him. Still not worried.

Skill and IQ are irrelevant without development time and without confidence.

The stuff about "always being a project" is misguided -- Kotkaniemi would be a far better player now if he had played 20+ minutes a game in Laval last year and the start of this year, and gone to the WJC, and not been given correct workout advice.

 

[DAChampion]

On the plus side, he should be cheap for his second contract

Yes, at least if there are no good players, Molson can save money on payroll.

 

[Andrei79]

If the kid is a project, you treat him as one. You don't use him as if he was already ready. A project don't play in the NHL unless you are a team who want to lose. Insanely stupid, but this management is used to it. Still time to go. Still years to come. But now...you could add Zadina to the mix of players who are alreaday trending up and probably moreso than JK. Like Tkachuk, like Hughes. Time will tell. But he better pick it up next year. In the meantime, get the kid IN LAVAL. And use the hell out of him offensively.

Well, go read the Zadina thread on Detroits forum. A lot of them have been worried up to now about his upside.

I thought he was a lot more ready than KK last year. That said, I like Detroits approach a lot better with him than we've had with KK. He's had time to adjust to the pro game in the AHL.

 

[Whitesnake]

Well, go read the Zadina thread on Detroits forum. A lot of them have been worried up to now about his upside.

I thought he was a lot more ready than KK last year. That said, I like Detroits approach a lot better with him than we've had with KK. He's had time to adjust to the pro game in the AHL.

People are worried 'cause more and more you see kids dominating at a younger age. And seems to me that more and more, that's what you expect from a top 10 pick. In our case, he was a top 3 pick. Just like Galchy. And because this organization is unable to choose a direction, they have to compensate with having to rush kids who are not ready. Just because they do better than what we have. Which brings the question....are the kids better than what we have? Or is this team so weak that the players we have are worst than NOT READY 18-19 year old kids? I choose the 2nd option.

You can't attract UFA's 'cause they don't want to play here? Fine, the direction to take then is to get what you can and develop your kids in the minors. And by developing your kids, it means making sure that whatever league they are playing in, that they are actually playing. A lot. Then, when they'll be ready at 20-21, you bring them up and you start getting the beset of them.

What this freakin organization is doing is finding stop gaps for kids....that they already are using, stalling their development, and that when you'd hope they'd be ready to take charge, they can't 'cause they are not as good as they should have been.

It's insane really. Let's keep ALL our kids 'cause they are the future of this team....but let's f*** the future 'cause we need our kids in the present. And people buy that. Over and over and over.

 

[Whitesnake]

Having said that, I believe that development or not, Timmins isn't the god some say he is. But JK is NOT a bad pick. Even if he was not the BPA or even if he is not better than some chosen after him, he should not be what we see this year. Absolutely not. If he happens, that's SOLELY on development for me. And remember that, 'cause that's not something I say often....

 

[Habs]

I really hope KK gets loaned for the juniors. He would no doubt crush everyone and right now, a little confidence booster may be just what he'd needs.

But what if he doesn't 'crush'? What does that do to him mentally?

 

[26Mats]

But what if he doesn't 'crush'? What does that do to him mentally?

At this point all we can do is try.

After this injury, I would loan him to the world juniors if he recovers in time (unlikely) and have him play in junior the rest of the year. Perhaps even all of next year too.

We have Danaul-Domi-Suzuki-Thompson-Poehling. Let's over develop this kid and bring him back when he's good and ready and physically developed.

 

[Habs]

At this point all we can do is try.

After this injury, I would loan him to the world juniors if he recovers in time (unlikely) and have him play in junior the rest of the year. Perhaps even all of next year too.

We have Danaul-Domi-Suzuki-Thompson-Poehling. Let's over develop this kid and bring him back when he's good and ready and physically developed.

Its not a bad idea, but it will never happen.

 

[azcanuck]

Encouraging that he skated for 30 minutes this morning.

He wont suddenly be asked to play in a world junior tournament and have some Russian idiot hammer him from behind.

His brain needs a rest. I'd say two more weeks at least.

 

[DangerDave]

Encouraging that he skated for 30 minutes this morning.

He wont suddenly be asked to play in a world junior tournament and have some Russian idiot hammer him from behind.

His brain needs a rest. I'd say two more weeks at least.

Luckily it only starts in a couple weeks. Could serve as a good conditioning stint.

 

[angusyoung]

I really hope KK gets loaned for the juniors. He would no doubt crush everyone and right now, a little confidence booster may be just what he'd needs.

He would have to be one of,if not the most impressive or else that will shatter any confidence he had.
And at the same time maybe get ol' Jed Clampet to whittle down that frikkin lance.

 

[angusyoung]

in all seriousness, this is true. Before the start of this season, I was concerned of a Kotkaniemi extension of 6 x $6M and Domi getting 6 x $9m. Not so much anymore.

Very generous,no way in hell do either deserve,nor did they that type of deal. Enough with giving RFA's the keys to the city,bridge until proven.

 

[DAChampion]

Very generous,no way in hell do either deserve,nor did they that type of deal. Enough with giving RFA's the keys to the city,bridge until proven.

There's no such thing as "proven" as players are always paid based on the expectation of FUTURE performance. Any player can fall off a cliff or fail to progress.

 

[26Mats]

Encouraging that he skated for 30 minutes this morning.

He wont suddenly be asked to play in a world junior tournament and have some Russian idiot hammer him from behind.

His brain needs a rest. I'd say two more weeks at least.

I'd also like to see him play this year in Junior even after the world junior tournament.

Let him get back to dominating. We're fine with Suzuki as the 3c. Go out and get Chuky for the missing offense. Then when Drouin comes back we'll be as good as can be this year. Maybe KK is ready next year. But I'd even be fine with him playing another year in Junior or the AHL while his body matures and gets stronger.

 

[angusyoung]

There's no such thing as "proven" as players are always paid based on the expectation of FUTURE performance. Any player can fall off a cliff or fail to progress.

Players ARE not ALWAYS paid on expectations,it's not carved in stone,bridge deals and arbitration still occurs. Speculating on a players development and future contributions are not always clear and evident. It's up to the Gm's to ice the team within constraints of cap available. TO screwed things up IMAO.