Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[phillytennis]

This teams draft/development history is one disaster after another, so when you get the 3rd overall pick you better get it right, or you'll set yourself back years. How many excuses will the team have for not getting the draft right? Preferably you draft the player which makes your team better for years down the road, knowing you have to retool at all positions, not just one. Given the choices at #3, there were a lot of questions taking JK that high. The fact they were so adamant about taking him no matter what, is a bigger concern. They forgot about the holes on the blueline, and the wing, and just assumed we had holes down the middle.

Where do you find a C if you don't draft them? Make a balsey move like Nashville / Columbus did. Free Agency. How many people here said 'O'reilly sucks we don't want him or that contract'? But here we are moving wingers to the middle, having to endure players like Domi, Weal, Cousins, Thompson, Peca, instead of just going for a true #1 C.

I firmly believe the franchise has no game-plan at all, no idea how to retool/rebuild, and that's a bigger problem than the draft. If we had some decent talent down the middle for JK to learn from, I suspect he's a different player today. If he was in the AHL, I also think he's a better player for it. It brings up so many questions about the moronic decisions this team makes, I really am not sure Mc David would surpass 55 pts in this garbage pile, because he'd be surrounded by smurfs waiver wire castoffs and a disgusting dump and chase system designed to save jobs in management.

Btw....Dahlin and Sveknikov were the only sure picks..... regarding JK....way too early to judge...he is still super young.

 

[Andrei79]

I remember the comments made towards Tkachuk. There are a lot of people hiding on those comments they made pre-draft. They called Tkachuk a typical Bergevin bait hook. That's what you get for hating and exaggerating things to prove your points.

I was sold on Tkachuk at the WJC. He passed my eye test. But some said, don't overvalue a small tournament

As far as Chiarot, I was ok with the signing but would of preferred a 2 year term. Today, I'm more content with the 3rd year

Werent you also sold on Zadina being comparable to Svechnikov based on said tournament ? You repeated that one quite often.

 

[Habs]

Wouldn't call the drafting one disaster after another. Timmins has a really good record in the lottery and drafting dmen, particularly in the 2nd round...

Jk has a lot of talent. Way too early to judge the pick. Couturier and Hertl are big centers that both broke out at 25 years old. Let's wait until KK's 25 before we panic and /or rush to judge the pick.

Oh a great record? Wheres all our draft picks the last 7 years? Where are the franchise players? Mete, Leks, Fleury, Kotkaniemi? That's what we have to show in 7 years? You want to wait another 7 years to see if JK is a good player? That's a great way to build a team right there, a 9 year development window on a 3rd overall pick. If your 3rd pick can't come in within 2 years and make a difference, you drafted the wrong guy, I hate to break it to you.

 

[jaffy27]

I remember the comments made towards Tkachuk. There are a lot of people hiding on those comments they made pre-draft. They called Tkachuk a typical Bergevin bait hook. That's what you get for hating and exaggerating things to prove your points.

I was sold on Tkachuk at the WJC. He passed my eye test. But some said, don't overvalue a small tournament

As far as Chiarot, I was ok with the signing but would of preferred a 2 year term. Today, I'm more content with the 3rd year

Bergevin bait hook......yup, that pretty much sums it up lol

I’m still happy with the KK pick but man we’re they ever wrong on the Tkachuk assessment.....Tkachuk and his 9 pathetic goals at NCAA, how could that kid EVER translate that to offense in the NHL.....now we know......meanwhile the ones that teed off on my like for Tkachuk are hiding in the deserts of Tatooine

 

[jaffy27]

Werent you also sold on Zadina being comparable to Svechnikov based on said tournament ? You repeated that one quite often.

I liked Zadina at the time.....it was a difficult pick

Tkachuk, Zadina or Kotkaniemi......those were the choices.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Werent you also sold on Zadina being comparable to Svechnikov based on said tournament ? You repeated that one quite often.

I said I didn't know Svechnikov's game that well and I knew Zadina very well. I said edge to Svechnikov for sure based on what I can see but the argument was about the gap difference. Do you think we can make a final decision at this stage? Something tells me you think we can?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Bergevin bait hook......yup, that pretty much sums it up lol

I’m still happy with the KK pick but man we’re they ever wrong on the Tkachuk assessment.....Tkachuk and his 9 pathetic goals at NCAA, how could that kid EVER translate that to offense in the NHL.....now we know......meanwhile the ones that teed off on my like for Tkachuk are hiding in the deserts of Tatooine

I have to admit, all the negative comments made towards Tkachuk did sway me as the year went along. I typically don't let that happen but I admit today that it did. I was very high on him after the WJC but was influenced to some degree on what some were saying. Still had him in the mix from the 3-8 range but I moved him down a bit.

I'm fine with Kotkaneimi. He's a long term prospect pre-draft and that didn't change with me cause we were premature by playing him as a 18 year old where he didn't dominate a development league prior. Skill and hockey IQ is there but how does he fill into that frame? Might take a while... look at Mantha for example. It's harder for guys who have that tall frame to fill in vs a guy like Caufield or Suzuki for example. Kotkaniemi will be passed on the development ladder by several players but he might take major jumps ahead of them when he in the 21-23 age range. Until then, enjoy the pessimistic/optimistic roller coaster ride

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh a great record? Wheres all our draft picks the last 7 years? Where are the franchise players? Mete, Leks, Fleury, Kotkaniemi? That's what we have to show in 7 years? You want to wait another 7 years to see if JK is a good player? That's a great way to build a team right there, a 9 year development window on a 3rd overall pick. If your 3rd pick can't come in within 2 years and make a difference, you drafted the wrong guy, I hate to break it to you.

Don't forget Domi and Drouin. Galchenyuk and Sergachev are directly tied to them. Franchise players? Not really but we shouldn't forget how we acquired them.

 

[1909]

I have to admit, all the negative comments made towards Tkachuk did sway me as the year went along. I typically don't let that happen but I admit today that it did. I was very high on him after the WJC but was influenced to some degree on what some were saying. Still had him in the mix from the 3-8 range but I moved him down a bit.

I'm fine with Kotkaneimi. He's a long term prospect pre-draft and that didn't change with me cause we were premature by playing him as a 18 year old where he didn't dominate a development league prior. Skill and hockey IQ is there but how does he fill into that frame? Might take a while... look at Mantha for example. It's harder for guys who have that tall frame to fill in vs a guy like Caufield or Suzuki for example. Kotkaniemi will be passed on the development ladder by several players but he might take major jumps ahead of them when he in the 21-23 age range. Until then, enjoy the pessimistic/optimistic roller coaster ride

It's gonna be VERY tough for KK to come back from this year struggles and injuries. Mentally and physically, it's gonna be a huge challenge for him and the team.

 

[Favster]

I have to admit, all the negative comments made towards Tkachuk did sway me as the year went along. I typically don't let that happen but I admit today that it did. I was very high on him after the WJC but was influenced to some degree on what some were saying. Still had him in the mix from the 3-8 range but I moved him down a bit.

I'm fine with Kotkaneimi. He's a long term prospect pre-draft and that didn't change with me cause we were premature by playing him as a 18 year old where he didn't dominate a development league prior. Skill and hockey IQ is there but how does he fill into that frame? Might take a while... look at Mantha for example. It's harder for guys who have that tall frame to fill in vs a guy like Caufield or Suzuki for example. Kotkaniemi will be passed on the development ladder by several players but he might take major jumps ahead of them when he in the 21-23 age range. Until then, enjoy the pessimistic/optimistic roller coaster ride

What's crazy was the same things were said about his brother Matthew. Out of everyone in that 3-8 range, I wanted Quinn Hughes badly. He was and to me, is still the only game breaking talent that was available.

 

[Whitesnake]

So, he shouldn't have moved up based on new information, like a dominant tournament where he played center.

Makes sense.

Then imagine Elias Pettersson breaking into the top 10 in 2017 from april to june without even playing a game, only to be picked 5th !

Moving the goalposts.....I said ''one tournament made him reached the top 5''. You said, NOT TRUE he was there because of much more than that. I give you an article that EXPLICITLY SAYS that the tournament made him reached the top 5. How about you acknowledge that first. And then, we could talk about rising on a list....

 

[Habs Halifax]

What's crazy was the same things were said about his brother Matthew. Out of everyone in that 3-8 range, I wanted Quinn Hughes badly. He was and to me, is still the only game breaking talent that was available.

Man, I was thinking about that very same thing last night. If his brother is that good and the age gap is close, Why would one be much worse than the other? They competed with each other all throughout their development and I heard nothing about one being better than the other substantially.

 

[Whitesnake]

I remember the comments made towards Tkachuk. There are a lot of people hiding on those comments they made pre-draft. They called Tkachuk a typical Bergevin bait hook. That's what you get for hating and exaggerating things to prove your points.

I was sold on Tkachuk at the WJC. He passed my eye test. But some said, don't overvalue a small tournament

As far as Chiarot, I was ok with the signing but would of preferred a 2 year term. Today, I'm more content with the 3rd year

Do you know that Timmins didn't pick Tkachuk? That ultimately, whethere Timmins thought Timmins was the 4th best player, the 8th best player on his list or the 30th best player, he didn't choose him.

Again, it's laughable how posters are judged more severly than the actual guy that takes the actual decision. Not only this guy has all the help and knowledge around him, but the great thing is that he doesn't put his list forward of who is top picks actually are. So Timmins or whatever head scouts have ALL the advantages in the world, we, as posters we don't, yet, some people here loves to more severely judged what we thought than what's actually been done. Insane.

We are not getting anything. Timmins is getting it by not picking him. Strange comment about Tkachuk and the small tournament....so which is it? We should judge players on tournament or not? If it was okay to judge Tkachuk on one tournament, it was okay to judge JK on one small tournament too? Oh and you know that tons of players that have done well in one small tournament didn't all have great NHL careers?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you know that Timmins didn't pick Tkachuk? That ultimately, whethere Timmins thought Timmins was the 4th best player, the 8th best player on his list or the 30th best player, he didn't choose him.

Again, it's laughable how posters are judged more severly than the actual guy that takes the actual decision. Not only this guy has all the help and knowledge around him, but the great thing is that he doesn't put his list forward of who is top picks actually are. So Timmins or whatever head scouts have ALL the advantages in the world, we, as posters we don't, yet, some people here loves to more severely judged what we thought than what's actually been done. Insane.

We are not getting anything. Timmins is getting it by not picking him. Strange comment about Tkachuk and the small tournament....so which is it? We should judge players on tournament or not? If it was okay to judge Tkachuk on one tournament, it was okay to judge JK on one small tournament too? Oh and you know that tons of players that have done well in one small tournament didn't all have great NHL careers?

The trend of players passing the WJC and U18 eye tests supports a NHL talent more than it does not. Not talking about production only, talking about how they stand out over others... eye test.

My Tons of players who turned out NHL impact players would trump your Tons of players who didn't. Lets save ourselves some time and not spend the many hours to cherry pick guys

 

[Whitesnake]

The trend of players passing the WJC and U18 eye tests supports a NHL talent more than it does not. Not talking about production only, talking about how they stand out over others... eye test.

My Tons of players who turned out NHL impact players would trump your Tons of players who didn't. Lets save ourselves some time and not spend the many hours to cherry pick guys

You liked Zadina a lot in that draft year. In no way shape or from did ANYBODY thought that Tkachuk would end up where he is right now vs a Zadina who has all the trouble in the world to be in the NHL on such a crappy team. Again, I still wonder why posters in here are so trigger happy to point out other posters when their own resume isn't that great either.....

All that while the guy who actualy does the picks, he doesn't have to share his entire list the way we do here. But hey, to excuse the head scout of our actual team, let's point out that this posters or that poster didn't like that player either.....Would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad and explain the state we are in. No accountability for the REAL DECISION MAKERS.

 

[Andrei79]

Moving the goalposts.....I said ''one tournament made him reached the top 5''. You said, NOT TRUE he was there because of much more than that. I give you an article that EXPLICITLY SAYS that the tournament made him reached the top 5. How about you acknowledge that first. And then, we could talk about rising on a list....

I'm not moving any goalposts here. I cant. There are no goalposts, because there's no actual point behind what you're trying to argue. I mean, you're trying to say this one tournament caused his rise. Well, it's false, he was rising for months and was already seen as a top 10 pick. If you want to specifically say this one tournament was the main driver from him specifically rising from 10th to 5th, then how does that hold any value whatsoever ? A dominant showing causes a rising player to rise further ? What ?

And do you think this is the only thing that could have been factored in ? If it was, how do you explain Petterssons rise, with 0 games played ? These factors were all even discussed on this very board: the Liiga season at 17, the size, the potential for growth, the exceptional development curve he showed and improvement in his skating, the two way play, how he consolidated his abilities at center... Those were all factored in here, so why not amongst scouts (hint:according to on air interviews, they were).

I'll also add that you said its insane to move a prospect in a list bases on 1 tournament, a prospect that was top 15. See, this is all false. He was already seen as a potential top 10 even before teams sat down to start on their list. And if its insane to use 1 tournament, then how about NO GAMES for Pettersson ?

 

[Andrei79]

I said I didn't know Svechnikov's game that well and I knew Zadina very well. I said edge to Svechnikov for sure based on what I can see but the argument was about the gap difference. Do you think we can make a final decision at this stage? Something tells me you think we can?

Its most certainly trending that way, as it was during their draft year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You liked Zadina a lot in that draft year. In no way shape or from did ANYBODY thought that Tkachuk would end up where he is right now vs a Zadina who has all the trouble in the world to be in the NHL on such a crappy team. Again, I still wonder why posters in here are so trigger happy to point out other posters when their own resume isn't that great either.....

All that while the guy who actualy does the picks, he doesn't have to share his entire list the way we do here. But hey, to excuse the head scout of our actual team, let's point out that this posters or that poster didn't like that player either.....Would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad and explain the state we are in. No accountability for the REAL DECISION MAKERS.

Here's the thing though. You remember one point in time with me talking about Zadina and that stuck with you. However, you don't realize that my opinion went up/down in a range of time. When Somppi went down before the Q playoffs, Zadina was not so dominate in my eye test so my prediction on him changed. You have selective memory. Do you see me doing that to you? NO!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Its most certainly trending that way, as it was during their draft year.

The trends indicate that for sure but man it's early.

 

[phillytennis]

I have to admit, all the negative comments made towards Tkachuk did sway me as the year went along. I typically don't let that happen but I admit today that it did. I was very high on him after the WJC but was influenced to some degree on what some were saying. Still had him in the mix from the 3-8 range but I moved him down a bit.

I'm fine with Kotkaneimi. He's a long term prospect pre-draft and that didn't change with me cause we were premature by playing him as a 18 year old where he didn't dominate a development league prior. Skill and hockey IQ is there but how does he fill into that frame? Might take a while... look at Mantha for example. It's harder for guys who have that tall frame to fill in vs a guy like Caufield or Suzuki for example. Kotkaniemi will be passed on the development ladder by several players but he might take major jumps ahead of them when he in the 21-23 age range. Until then, enjoy the pessimistic/optimistic roller coaster ride

Personally, I am not against the Kotkinemi pick at number 3.
I am more critical that we took this 18 year old and tried to accelerate his development...
He and the team would have been better served had he remained in Finland or played in Laval for his own long-term development.

 

[Andrei79]

It annoys me to no end how he's been handled.

Everyone, or almost, who watched and followed him his draft year was a fan. And how could you not be ? He competed hard, was physical, shut down players while showing great offensive skills while consistently improving every aspect of his technical skills.

Most who weren't fans didn't watch him (like, basing themselves on WJCs he didn't even play in) and went off early season reports.

What was clear to everyone though was that he needed time: to work on his skating, to adjust as a center to the pro game and to get bigger. Its infuriating to see how this management keeps making the same short sighted mistakes over and over.

 

[Frozenice]

You liked Zadina a lot in that draft year. In no way shape or from did ANYBODY thought that Tkachuk would end up where he is right now vs a Zadina who has all the trouble in the world to be in the NHL on such a crappy team. Again, I still wonder why posters in here are so trigger happy to point out other posters when their own resume isn't that great either.....

All that while the guy who actualy does the picks, he doesn't have to share his entire list the way we do here. But hey, to excuse the head scout of our actual team, let's point out that this posters or that poster didn't like that player either.....Would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad and explain the state we are in. No accountability for the REAL DECISION MAKERS.

Why this board had such a hatred for Tkachuk last year for no reason, as far as I could see, made no sense to me. His brother’s skillset was working fine at the NHL level and nothing to indicate he wasn’t as talented (if not more talented) then his brother so why wouldn’t he be a success at the NHL level?

If a few clowns here want to post 100+ times a day repeating the same thing ad nauseam, that shouldn’t be taken as a consensus view.

 

[Whitesnake]

Why this board had such a hatred for Tkachuk last year for no reason, as far as I could see, made no sense to me. His brother’s skillset was working fine at the NHL level and nothing to indicate he wasn’t as talented (if not more talented) then his brother so why wouldn’t he be a success at the NHL level?

If a few clowns here want to post 100+ times a day repeating the same thing ad nauseam, that shouldn’t be taken as a consensus view.

People talk about exaggeration....here's another one. Not a lot of people in here HATED Tkachuk. I didn't hate him. I prefered others. Hating Tkachuk is to put him in a No Draft list. The biggest Tkachuk hater would not have put him in a ND list.

Then, not going for Tkachuk is actually what was bold. Not liking him. Who the heck don't want to like a big body, good IQ player coming from a hockey family? Liking him is extremely easy. Not thinking he should be top 3 is, I think fine with me. Depending of how deep you think a draft is.

Nobody said it was a consensus view...why do you bring that up?

 

[Whitesnake]

I can’t speak for the Scouts as I have no idea where they had him slotted, but I know where some had him slotted here and that’s outside top 10

Do you also happen to know that I had Kotkaniemi at No7 before anybody did?

Strange that the same ones who don't want us to disregard JK seems to want to discard the other players chosen in the top 10....By the way Jaf, what was your list?

 

[26Mats]

People talk about exaggeration....here's another one. Not a lot of people in here HATED Tkachuk. I didn't hate him. I prefered others. Hating Tkachuk is to put him in a No Draft list. The biggest Tkachuk hater would not have put him in a ND list.

Then, not going for Tkachuk is actually what was bold. Not liking him. Who the heck don't want to like a big body, good IQ player coming from a hockey family? Liking him is extremely easy. Not thinking he should be top 3 is, I think fine with me. Depending of how deep you think a draft is.

Nobody said it was a consensus view...why do you bring that up?

A LOT of posters said "anyone but Tkachuk!", "I'll stop following this team if they draft Tkachuk!"

The reason? His numbers on paper were much lower than Zadina. Plus, he's a winger, and we were starved for centers. Plus we had just gone big with Alzner, Weber, etc... and the league had just gotten much faster with the hooking to the hands being enforced during 2017-2018. Consequently many power forwards like Lucic were not able to keep up with the new NHL.

I wasn't one of these people. I said there must be a reason the scouts have him so high. I was just hoping we'd take the best player available, whether that was KK, Tkachuk, Zadina, Wahlstrom or Dobson. Anyways whatever becomes of KK, we no longer have any glaring positional needs. I hope we draft for top talent, not position, going forward.