Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 14)

[Habs Halifax]

I meant the content of what he said, not his delivery.

I meant both content and delivery. Problem is this is Montreal and anybody in that seat needs to be a strong character, well respected, and good at translating thoughts into words under pressure (not everybody is good at this). This is why Gainey gets some much respect and doesn't get thrown under the bus as much even though he made just as many mistake or more!

 

[Hannibal]

If you don't believe in the drafting from the 17, 18, 19 drafts, you might as well give up entirely on the draft. Do you seriously think the past = the future and the latest group will be too many busts and nothing special?

What's really funny is Bergevin has trended much better since Dudley left and Timmins was promoted. Timmins is not the elephant in the room. You want our scouts to hit on some stars but you don't understand draft power and fail to do a proper evaluation. All you are going to do is do a 10 min search on the internet and list cherry picking... you can't be serious by thinking this is a good approach?

The only thing Timmins deserves heat for is the 12 and 13 draft years. We had very good draft power and the results are not good at all. Draft power is a big deal and if you look at the trends, teams that draft well have good draft power. They go hand in hand but you will ignore this I am sure

In this era where the Cap is a part of the game and where no good stars want to sign here, you have to find players in the first round who’s gonna play a role on your team in the next 2-3 years after there draft. A team like MTL cannot afford bust in the first round.

Leblanc
Beaulieu
Tinordi
Galchenyuk
McCarron
Scherbak
Juulsen

Sorry but that’s too many first round bust. And we can add Fisher, Chipchura, Kostitsyn.

How is this guy not the elephant in the room ffs? How many first round pick bust a head scout can make before being fired? How many ffs? The guy has 15 lives or what? Futhermore, the guy draft two freaking time in the top 3 and we’re about to see we drafted two bust!

f***, get this guy our of here.

 

[Whitesnake]

If you don't believe in the drafting from the 17, 18, 19 drafts, you might as well give up entirely on the draft. Do you seriously think the past = the future and the latest group will be too many busts and nothing special?

What's really funny is Bergevin has trended much better since Dudley left and Timmins was promoted. Timmins is not the elephant in the room. You want our scouts to hit on some stars but you don't understand draft power and fail to do a proper evaluation. All you are going to do is do a 10 min search on the internet and list cherry picking... you can't be serious by thinking this is a good approach?

The only thing Timmins deserves heat for is the 12 and 13 draft years. We had very good draft power and the results are not good at all. Draft power is a big deal and if you look at the trends, teams that draft well have good draft power. They go hand in hand but you will ignore this I am sure

And what you will choose to ignore is that draft power means so much. Canes build an entire defense with Faulk-Slavin-Pesce....how was that draft power? But they still did it. Teams were able to get superstars out of 2nd and 3rd rounds. With not necessarily the draft power that you keep talking about. I'm sorry, but a head scout do not distance himself is what he needs if guys like us, as uninformed we could be, could do the same freaking job. You don't think that a guy paid like he is with ALL the inside informations he has shouldn't be able to hit more targets than us?

You talk about being serious about the approach people are at and yet you name 2012 and 2013 as his worst draft years....do you take into consideration in your draft power how strong drafts are? How is it that those years are worst compared to 2010 when he reached to get Tinordi in the 1st round instead of going Kuznetsov? Are we going back to ''but this is what the league was at'' lazy analysis? When Ottawa in 2008 got the frail Karlsson...when the Preds mid-1st round went with the diminutivie Ellis, somehow the LEAGUE wanted us to pick Tinordi in 2010?

Nobody in their analysis will use teams that pick top 3 in great draft years. Yeah, picking Crosby at No1 in 2005 had a lot of draft power. Nobody blames Timmins for not being able to pick Crosby. But maybe Bergeron instead of Urquhart in 2003. You talk about cherry picking....well I'm just responding to your draft power theory. Yes, he could have done better in 2012 and 2013. But could have done better with the best draft power he had in those other years....his 1st rounders.

And yes, 17 to 19 looks better. But today, it LOOKS better. That's your evaluation TODAY. Yet, TODAY, Zadina, Quinn Hughes or Tkachuk would look better than Kotkaniemi. Pretty much that's draft power too.

And by the way....at what round do you stop having draft power? 'Cause if so, you should be advocating for the Habs to stop racking those 4th, 5th, and 6th rounds and start packaging them in roder to get 1sts, 2nds and 3rds....

 

[DAChampion]

In this era where the Cap is a part of the game and where no good stars want to sign here, you have to find players in the first round who’s gonna play a role on your team in the next 2-3 years after there draft. A team like MTL cannot afford bust in the first round.

Leblanc
Beaulieu
Tinordi
Galchenyuk
McCarron
Scherbak
Juulsen

Sorry but that’s too many first round bust. And we can add Fisher, Chipchura, Kostitsyn.

How is this guy not the elephant in the room ffs? How many first round pick bust a head scout can make before being fired? How many ffs? The guy has 15 lives or what? Futhermore, the guy draft two freaking time in the top 3 and we’re about to see we drafted two bust!

****, get this guy our of here.

You shouldn't include the guys who had major injuries among the busts. It's bad form.

 

[Habs Halifax]

And what you will choose to ignore is that draft power means so much. Canes build an entire defense with Faulk-Slavin-Pesce....how was that draft power? But they still did it. Teams were able to get superstars out of 2nd and 3rd rounds. With not necessarily the draft power that you keep talking about. I'm sorry, but a head scout do not distance himself is what he needs if guys like us, as uninformed we could be, could do the same freaking job. You don't think that a guy paid like he is with ALL the inside informations he has shouldn't be able to hit more targets than us?

You talk about being serious about the approach people are at and yet you name 2012 and 2013 as his worst draft years....do you take into consideration in your draft power how strong drafts are? How is it that those years are worst compared to 2010 when he reached to get Tinordi in the 1st round instead of going Kuznetsov? Are we going back to ''but this is what the league was at'' lazy analysis? When Ottawa in 2008 got the frail Karlsson...when the Preds mid-1st round went with the diminutivie Ellis, somehow the LEAGUE wanted us to pick Tinordi in 2010?

Nobody in their analysis will use teams that pick top 3 in great draft years. Yeah, picking Crosby at No1 in 2005 had a lot of draft power. Nobody blames Timmins for not being able to pick Crosby. But maybe Bergeron instead of Urquhart in 2003. You talk about cherry picking....well I'm just responding to your draft power theory. Yes, he could have done better in 2012 and 2013. But could have done better with the best draft power he had in those other years....his 1st rounders.

And yes, 17 to 19 looks better. But today, it LOOKS better. That's your evaluation TODAY. Yet, TODAY, Zadina, Quinn Hughes or Tkachuk would look better than Kotkaniemi. Pretty much that's draft power too.

When you have great draft power and more than the average amount of picks (especially in lower rounds), it allows you to go after various types of players. When you only have one 2nd round pick for example, maybe we draft Ylonen and not Romanov?

I don't think you understand the flexibility draft power gives you. There is a very clear trend of teams that draft well, have good draft power and extra darts to throw at the board. Luck has a lot to do with it too and that applies to all teams. However, most of my hope comments are not just about hope, it's about probability. Our latest group of prospects has great trends. We have both quality and quantity and more picks to come. The rebuild is underway but I repeat, our work is far from done.

 

[Whitesnake]

When you have great draft power and more than the average amount of picks (especially in lower rounds), it allows you to go after various types of players. When you only have one 2nd round pick for example, maybe we draft Ylonen and not Romanov?

I don't think you understand the flexibility draft power gives you. There is a very clear trend of teams that draft well, have good draft power and extra darts to throw at the board. Luck has a lot to do with it too and that applies to all teams. However, most of my hope comments are not just about hope, it's about probability. Our latest group of prospects has great trends. We have both quality and quantity and more picks to come. The rebuild is underway but I repeat, our work is far from done.

See the cherry picking games works both ways. You come out with Romanov's name. Since Grabovski, Timmins has never been able hit a target that nobody knew. All of his hidden gems stayed hidden. Now, he might have hit one with Romanov and THAT explains draft power. But somehow, Collberg, Thrower doesn't explain draft power....or DLR and Fucale didn't either....

By the way, to regularly be able to get draft power and get all those early 2nd rounders....don't you have to sell? Why not advocating to sell even more to get 1st rounders so that the draft power is even stronger?

Thing is, to show that we should have confidence in Timmins, you give us the 2016-2019 table that shows that we are 3rd in top 100 picks, and his rating score is 10th. And that's based on Sergachev, Mete and Kotkaniemi. A Kotkaniemi that might not have been a BPA. A Mete that will never able to change the dynamics of this team. And a great pick in Sergachev though not enough to keep him. While a guy like McAvoy chosen 5 picks later will probaby be a Bruin for a very long time. But even if you wouldn't take that into consideration, table shows a regression from the draft power to the score.

But yes. WAY too soon to tell. And plenty of prospects to continue their evaluation. And again, it does look good. I keep repeating it 'cause somehow you seem to think I find this awful. Reality is, plenty of COACHES, GM's or HEAD SCOUTS, benefits from the job that was done before them.

But when do you draw the line? 'Cause if Timmins is able to surf for 10 years on his sole only incredible year in 2007....when are you going to fire him? Never? Job for life? What do you need to see to contemplate firing him?

 

[Frank Drebin]

One thing that irritates is that this is the last season that Kotkaniemi can play in Laval, and Bergevin is squandering it. He will not be waiver eligible next year. Thus, even if a new GM comes in, he will not have the option to course correct.

How many players have been sent down to season in the ahl after playing 140+ games in the NHL?

He's never going to Laval, even we brought in a brand new management team top to bottom tomorrow.

 

[DAChampion]

How many players have been sent down to season in the ahl after playing 140+ games in the NHL?

He's never going to Laval, even we brought in a brand new management team top to bottom tomorrow.

There may not be many, but Kotkaniemi's is a unique case. There are not that many ultra-talented players who were rushed to the NHL this early.

 

[Frank Drebin]

See the cherry picking games works both ways. You come out with Romanov's name. Since Grabovski, Timmins has never been able hit a target that nobody knew. All of his hidden gems stayed hidden. Now, he might have hit one with Romanov and THAT explains draft power. But somehow, Collberg, Thrower doesn't explain draft power....or DLR and Fucale didn't either....

By the way, to regularly be able to get draft power and get all those early 2nd rounders....don't you have to sell? Why not advocating to sell even more to get 1st rounders so that the draft power is even stronger?

Thing is, to show that we should have confidence in Timmins, you give us the 2016-2019 table that shows that we are 3rd in top 100 picks, and his rating score is 10th. And that's based on Sergachev, Mete and Kotkaniemi. A Kotkaniemi that might not have been a BPA. A Mete that will never able to change the dynamics of this team. And a great pick in Sergachev though not enough to keep him. While a guy like McAvoy chosen 5 picks later will probaby be a Bruin for a very long time. But even if you wouldn't take that into consideration, table shows a regression from the draft power to the score.

But yes. WAY too soon to tell. And plenty of prospects to continue their evaluation. And again, it does look good. I keep repeating it 'cause somehow you seem to think I find this awful. Reality is, plenty of COACHES, GM's or HEAD SCOUTS, benefits from the job that was done before them.

But when do you draw the line? 'Cause if Timmins is able to surf for 10 years on his sole only incredible year in 2007....when are you going to fire him? Never? Job for life? What do you need to see to contemplate firing him?

This pick. If kotka ends up being a lesser player than Tkachuk, Hughes and Zadina, can he really be trusted with valuable picks again?

 

[26Mats]

This pick. If kotka ends up being a lesser player than Tkachuk, Hughes and Zadina, can he really be trusted with valuable picks again?

It's certainly a big one for his job security.

Whether he's fired or not, I hope they never draft for need again!

And by the way, recall how virtually unanimously these boards were happy with the pick because "we need a big center."

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's certainly a big one for his job security.

Whether he's fired or not, I hope they never draft for need again!

And by the way, recall how virtually unanimously these boards were happy with the pick because "we need a big center."

We get excited for every pick because we're fans, not scouts.

I have no clue how players will pan out, but I do know having an anze kopitar for the next 15 years would be awesome.

Kopitar scored 62 points in 72 games in his rookie (d+1)season btw.

 

[Koivu11]

It's certainly a big one for his job security.

Whether he's fired or not, I hope they never draft for need again!

And by the way, recall how virtually unanimously these boards were happy with the pick because "we need a big center."

McCarron was drafted for need as well and look how that turned out for us.

 

[Frank Drebin]

McCarron was drafted for need as well and look how that turned out for us.

Lol, what a joke those first 2 picks were in 13.

Get beat up in the playoffs, draft Milan Lucic

Goalie is a sieve in the playofs, draft a goalie with a high 2nd

 

[Yoor]

Well we coul

KK is flashing high end skill /hockey IQ. And Poehling is actually slowing him down. He's pretty useless out there right now. Skates fast, looks the part but I've seen ZERO high end skill elements from him.

Well we could start by actually playing him at his natural position before we judge too much. I would like to se Poehling play C for us before I make my evaluation.

 

[26Mats]

We get excited for every pick because we're fans, not scouts.

I have no clue how players will pan out, but I do know having an anze kopitar for the next 15 years would be awesome.

Kopitar scored 62 points in 72 games in his rookie (d+1)season btw.

Hertl had exactly half that many points in his draft +2.

Every player is different. Let's let KK fill out and develop. We'll see where he's at when he's 25 - when Hertl and Couturier broke out.

 

[26Mats]

McCarron was drafted for need as well and look how that turned out for us.

And they said after the '19 draft that they drafted all those left D not out of a conicidence that the best player available so many times in a row was a left D. They said they drafted for need. Good thing Timmins' specialty is D. Because if he did that with centers, it would just be a waste.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Hertl had exactly half that many points in his draft +2.

Every player is different. Let's let KK fill out and develop. We'll see where he's at when he's 25 - when Hertl and Couturier broke out.

Yeah, its easy to get down and negative when the team is in the dumps. Some players simply take longer to develop.

 

[Whitesnake]

Just wondering...how do you give kids a chance.....without rushing them? Are the same people saying that Kotka is rushed are the same ones that were demanding to give top 6 icetime to Kotka? You have to hope not....