Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - AHL edition

[Montreal Impact FC]

he had 6 points in in 3 games than 1 pt in the last 3 games and 2 straight games with no points. the party is over for Kotka AHL wise too.

its fine.. give him some time he need to go down in the ahl then find the AHL vibe.. not just surprise everyone for 2 games and then vanish.. been there done dat.. let.him dominate the ahl for half to a freaking full season if needed. why the rush? ah yeah to saves MB's job.. way to screw players devellopement.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Molson should have told MB to fire Timmins the moment he saw Tkachuk and Hughes in the all-star game.

I still have hope for KK as a #2 C but he may never get to an all-star game.

... and it's not all about the all-star game, really. It's that the other 2 players are key players for their team. Both play positions/roles that are a huge needs for the Habs. A #1 LD and a top 6 power winger.

 

[HankyZetts]

You nailed this one...standing ovation

Nah, sorry, y'all are trippin! Lol (though I do agree with many of the points being made, in principle)

Kotka being "rushed" doesn't mean a thing, unless you are implying that he's been ruined?

**If you guys are saying that the Habs ruined Kotkaniemi, then state it clearly. Or else you're just bickering over bs.**


He's still the 5th youngest player in the league. Him being rushed? That would have been to have played him higher in the lineup with our best players, and inevitably have him be exposed. That could be grounds for ruining a player.

Everyone knows he's not a fourth liner, so it was inevitable that he'd be sent down so he can play big minutes. Where's the issue?

The sky isn't falling. Habs management team is not a bunch of morons like so many of you arrogantly proclaim. Yes they have made mistakes like every team, (especially sly Lefebvre, who to me, is by the far the best argument against Habs proficiency wrt development) but they've done lots of good, especially recently.

I'm super excited to see him dominate the AHL and come to camp next year ready to take a spot in the top 9. He knows what it takes and has played in most situations in the big leagues. No better way to hone your abilities than by first hand experience.

Kotkaniemi is just fine and will be an impact player if he continues putting in the work. The skills are all there and so is the hockey mind.



Chucky was a bum. No wonder Julien wouldn't reward him for his accomplishments, the guy was in another world by all accounts. Had to try and keep him hungry as his head was already so fat!

Blame Chucky's father for his being a bust, not Montreals development techniques!!

 

[M.C.G. 31]

he had 6 points in in 3 games than 1 pt in the last 3 games and 2 straight games with no points. the party is over for Kotka AHL wise too.

its fine.. give him some time he need to go down in the ahl then find the AHL vibe.. not just surprise everyone for 2 games and then vanish.. been there done dat.. let.him dominate the ahl for half to a freaking full season if needed. why the rush? ah yeah to saves MB's job.. way to screw players devellopement.

Did you think he was going to score at a 2PPG clip for the rest of the AHL season?

 

[Andrei79]

he had 6 points in in 3 games than 1 pt in the last 3 games and 2 straight games with no points. the party is over for Kotka AHL wise too.

its fine.. give him some time he need to go down in the ahl then find the AHL vibe.. not just surprise everyone for 2 games and then vanish.. been there done dat.. let.him dominate the ahl for half to a freaking full season if needed. why the rush? ah yeah to saves MB's job.. way to screw players devellopement.

He's had quite a few chances despite not scoring.

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

He's had quite a few chances despite not scoring.

yeah but we need him to put points on board otherwise he will always be compared to Eller. and its fine i aint saying he isnt playing okay but the "party" is over.

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

Did you think he was going to score at a 2PPG clip for the rest of the AHL season?

did I say he would be on a rampage the whole season?

no. i said the "party" is over. doesnt mean he isnt playing fine. its just the points are pilling up at the same rythm. thats all. geez

 

[montreal]

Nah, sorry, y'all are trippin! Lol (though I do agree with many of the points being made, in principle)

Kotka being "rushed" doesn't mean a thing, unless you are implying that he's been ruined?

**If you guys are saying that the Habs ruined Kotkaniemi, then state it clearly. Or else you're just bickering over bs.**


He's still the 5th youngest player in the league. Him being rushed? That would have been to have played him higher in the lineup with our best players, and inevitably have him be exposed. That could be grounds for ruining a player.

Everyone knows he's not a fourth liner, so it was inevitable that he'd be sent down so he can play big minutes. Where's the issue?

The sky isn't falling. Habs management team is not a bunch of morons like so many of you arrogantly proclaim. Yes they have made mistakes like every team, (especially sly Lefebvre, who to me, is by the far the best argument against Habs proficiency wrt development) but they've done lots of good, especially recently.

I'm super excited to see him dominate the AHL and come to camp next year ready to take a spot in the top 9. He knows what it takes and has played in most situations in the big leagues. No better way to hone your abilities than by first hand experience.

Kotkaniemi is just fine and will be an impact player if he continues putting in the work. The skills are all there and so is the hockey mind.



Chucky was a bum. No wonder Julien wouldn't reward him for his accomplishments, the guy was in another world by all accounts. Had to try and keep him hungry as his head was already so fat!

Blame Chucky's father for his being a bust, not Montreals development techniques!!

We won't know about ruin or not, it's on Kotka to improve and build up his confidence.

I do agree that Lefebvre being the worst but I don't know if Habs management team is a bunch of morons or not but I don't see how it's anywhere near arrogant to suggest it could be the case when it took 6 years to fire someone that was clearly terrible at their job, that the 2 head coaches he's hired have not done any favors to Timmins and his staff for how they have handled skilled prospects and then there's the whole debate on if he should have fired Timmins instead of promoting him.

But their track record should leave them open to high criticism at the very least as anyone on this board should understand how frustrated and pissed off Hab fans are at years of either sucking or being average at best and at having little to show for development and drafting. It's a very tough time to be a Hab fan and so it should be expected that posters will and want to lash out at management. Are they correct, so far yes but we'll see if that changes. Does bringing in Bouchard change things enough or does MB rushing kids to the NHL that aren't ready just repeat the cycle we have seen over the last 6-7 years.

Several of us felt that Kotka should have been in Liiga last year to work on getting stronger, to play a full season at center in a mens league, something he had never done before. Let him mature a bit physically before throwing him to the wolves in one of the toughest positions there is.

As for his future, no one knows, he could end up a 3rd line center or he could end up a 1st line center that puts up 80 pts. But he has to work on getting stronger especially his lower body, his skating needs a good bit of improvement, in this league not being a great skater is a bit concerning, not saying he can't be a legit top 6 center on a contender with average skating but it would certainly help matters if he were a better skater.

As for Galchenyuk, I removed the name you called him, that is against the rules as it's not proven. But to me there's no way you have a 3rd OA pick that gets better every year to the point where he scores 30 goals and then his game under a different coach turns to shit. Now maybe it was his off-ice issues that led to his downfall, maybe Timmins should have done more research into the family to see that his dad could be toxic and a big problem.

But putting a 30 goal scorer on the 4th line or putting a guy like DLR on his line just seems very stupid to me. At the end of the day it doesn't matter so much as to why since management doesn't appear to want to change their approach, what matters in this business are results and so far we aren't getting them so fans will be up in arms until we do. They don't have to be right to be pissed, we want a winner and god knows how long that's going to take.

 

[HankyZetts]

We won't know about ruin or not, it's on Kotka to improve and build up his confidence.

I do agree that Lefebvre being the worst but I don't know if Habs management team is a bunch of morons or not but I don't see how it's anywhere near arrogant to suggest it could be the case when it took 6 years to fire someone that was clearly terrible at their job, that the 2 head coaches he's hired have not done any favors to Timmins and his staff for how they have handled skilled prospects and then there's the whole debate on if he should have fired Timmins instead of promoting him.

But their track record should leave them open to high criticism at the very least as anyone on this board should understand how frustrated and pissed off Hab fans are at years of either sucking or being average at best and at having little to show for development and drafting. It's a very tough time to be a Hab fan and so it should be expected that posters will and want to lash out at management. Are they correct, so far yes but we'll see if that changes. Does bringing in Bouchard change things enough or does MB rushing kids to the NHL that aren't ready just repeat the cycle we have seen over the last 6-7 years.

Several of us felt that Kotka should have been in Liiga last year to work on getting stronger, to play a full season at center in a mens league, something he had never done before. Let him mature a bit physically before throwing him to the wolves in one of the toughest positions there is.

As for his future, no one knows, he could end up a 3rd line center or he could end up a 1st line center that puts up 80 pts. But he has to work on getting stronger especially his lower body, his skating needs a good bit of improvement, in this league not being a great skater is a bit concerning, not saying he can't be a legit top 6 center on a contender with average skating but it would certainly help matters if he were a better skater.

As for Galchenyuk, I removed the name you called him, that is against the rules as it's not proven. But to me there's no way you have a 3rd OA pick that gets better every year to the point where he scores 30 goals and then his game under a different coach turns to ****. Now maybe it was his off-ice issues that led to his downfall, maybe Timmins should have done more research into the family to see that his dad could be toxic and a big problem.

But putting a 30 goal scorer on the 4th line or putting a guy like DLR on his line just seems very stupid to me. At the end of the day it doesn't matter so much as to why since management doesn't appear to want to change their approach, what matters in this business are results and so far we aren't getting them so fans will be up in arms until we do. They don't have to be right to be pissed, we want a winner and god knows how long that's going to take.

I'm digging most of what you are saying here.

Btw, I only knew how bad Lefebvre was as a coach because of your posts on the situation. I appreciate ya dude! Lol That was the worst example of Bergy's weakness of surrounding himself with his friends

I see it a bit different, in that this is the first time in a little bit that I have some true skilled youngsters to cheer for on the Habs. Not projects, but legit talents, in IQ and skill. Of course I'm talking about Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield and Romanov. All super young and super good. I like them better than all the other recent crops of prospects, as I don't have to be a homer and ignore any red flags lol

Have another two years of acquiring talents like that and we are truly in business.

Here's hoping!

 

[montreal]

I'm digging most of what you are saying here.

Btw, I only knew how bad Lefebvre was as a coach because of your posts on the situation. I appreciate ya dude! Lol That was the worst example of Bergy's weakness of surrounding himself with his friends

I see it a bit different, in that this is the first time in a little bit that I have some true skilled youngsters to cheer for on the Habs. Not projects, but legit talents, in IQ and skill. Of course I'm talking about Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, Caufield and Romanov. All super young and super good. I like them better than all the other recent crops of prospects, as I don't have to be a homer and ignore any red flags lol

Have another two years of acquiring talents like that and we are truly in business.

Here's hoping!

thanks, I took a ton of shit for that as many were not happy about me constantly railing on Lefebvre but this is why I was so pissed as it at the very least had a hand in why this organization has struggled to even make the playoffs as you have to be able to add some cheap contracts from your farm system that can contribute to the team with some kind of impact.

Hopefully this time around things are different, I don't put in as much time as I used to following our prospects but I still put in a lot of time and I would easily say this is the deepest i've ever seen our system but I f***ing hate how they handle these kids in both calling them up and how they deploy them at the NHL level.

Only time will tell if Suzuki, Kotka, Caufield, Romanov, Primeau, etc... end up as better NHLers then the Price, Pac, Subban, McDonagh, Streit, Halak, Grabo, etc....

 

[HallOfGreatness4]

They’ve destroyed this guy in favor of rusty toys

 

[DangerDave]

They’ve destroyed this guy in favor of rusty toys

He's not destroyed. He just needs time to simmer. I don't think him getting dominated for 16 minutes a night in a top 6 role would have done him any favors either. Could you imagine him facing off vs guys like Crosby consistently? Confidence would be shattered

Took too long to send him down but at least now he knows what he needs to do to become an NHLer . Everything I've heard from Bouchard tells me he's a good candidate to guide him.

 

[azcanuck]

Can someone clarify that KK can only spend this season in the AHL. If he's playing there next year he has to clear waivers?

 

[Cobra Commander]

They’ve destroyed this guy in favor of rusty toys

He’s far from destroyed. He needs a full year in the AHL next season. He’s not ready.

 

[Cobra Commander]

I think Kotkaniemi will be an elite set up man who can score goals if he sees an opening. He’s gonna have to play with 2 snipers to be at his best and reach PPG+

 

[LaP]

He’s far from destroyed. He needs a full year in the AHL next season. He’s not ready.

In itself it's almost like saying he is destroyed. He's a 3rd overall pick. A 3rd overall pick should not NEED a full AHL season at 20 years old. Half a season maybe. You can decide to keep him in the AHL if you got a cup contender but a 3rd overall pick should be able to play and look good in the NHL at 20 years old. Not on his prime but able to help.

 

[Cobra Commander]

In itself it's almost like saying he is destroyed. He's a 3rd overall pick. A 3rd overall pick should not NEED a full AHL season at 20 years old. Half a season maybe. You can decide to keep him in the AHL if you got a cup contender but a 3rd overall pick should be able to play and look good in the NHL at 20 years old. Not on his prime but able to help.

I feel like this year doesn’t count for him, I’m giving him a mulligan. And last season he should have been in Finland. He’s sooo young and he’s gonna be sooo good, there’s no rush. If he’s actually ready next season then sure bring him back.

 

[DangerDave]

In itself it's almost like saying he is destroyed. He's a 3rd overall pick. A 3rd overall pick should not NEED a full AHL season at 20 years old. Half a season maybe. You can decide to keep him in the AHL if you got a cup contender but a 3rd overall pick should be able to play and look good in the NHL at 20 years old. Not on his prime but able to help.

Thing is he really isn't a 3rd overall pick. 3rd overall picks don't have any glaring faults in their game. He should be treated like you would Suzuki, Caufield, Patch, Subban etc...

That's on management though. I like KK but he was a reach and the pick looks even worst now that Suzuki, Domi and Danault have all emerged as good centers.

 

[Lebowski]

I still like Kotka's potential as a top 6 center but the management has to be willing to let him stew in the minors for a while.

I look at Draisaitl as a guy that was poorly handled early in his career and the Oiler's management had the common sense to let him grow away from the NHL for a while.

 

[CHfan1]

Thing is he really isn't a 3rd overall pick. 3rd overall picks don't have any glaring faults in their game.

Unfortunately a lot of third overall picks have faults.

From 2001-2018 here are the third overall picks, Svitov, Bouwmeester, Horton, Barker, Jack Johnson, Toews, Turris, Bogosian, Duchene, Gudbranson, Huberdeau, Galchenyuk, Drouin, Draisaitl, Strome, Dubois, Heiskanen, Kotkaniemi

The third overall pick hasn’t been a sure thing. I would argue, currently 5/18 picks were great picks (Toews, Huberdeau, Draisaitl, Dubois, Heiskanen).

 

[Habs]

In itself it's almost like saying he is destroyed. He's a 3rd overall pick. A 3rd overall pick should not NEED a full AHL season at 20 years old. Half a season maybe. You can decide to keep him in the AHL if you got a cup contender but a 3rd overall pick should be able to play and look good in the NHL at 20 years old. Not on his prime but able to help.

being taken 3rd doesn’t make you a legit #3 pick. I think Craig Button does the habs picks.

 

[DangerDave]

Unfortunately a lot of third overall picks have faults.

From 2001-2018 here are the third overall picks, Svitov, Bouwmeester, Horton, Barker, Jack Johnson, Toews, Turris, Bogosian, Duchene, Gudbranson, Huberdeau, Galchenyuk, Drouin, Draisaitl, Strome, Dubois, Heiskanen, Kotkaniemi

The third overall pick hasn’t been a sure thing. I would argue, currently 5/18 picks were great picks (Toews, Huberdeau, Draisaitl, Dubois, Heiskanen).

Good point. A 3rd can bust either way. I just find that KKs skating and strength is a glaring issue that makes him more of a project than what most 3rd overall picks ought to be. It's what made Suzuki a mid first rather than a top 5.

For the record, I think KK will become a good player. I was just responding to the post saying that KK should be fully NHL ready after just a brief AHL stint. It's generally agreed upon that we drafted for need rather than BPA.

 

[LaP]

I think Kotkaniemi will be an elite set up man who can score goals if he sees an opening. He’s gonna have to play with 2 snipers to be at his best and reach PPG+

Most elite players play in the NHL at 20 and are able to be productive. Let's look at the top 20 scorers at 20 years old.

Draistl : In the NHL 51 points.
Pasternak : In the NHL 70 points.
McJesus : In the NHL 108 points
MacKinnon : In the NHL 52 points.
Panarin : In the KHL 31 points in 50 games (which is not bad for a 20 years old he was traded toward the end of the season and was still the 2nd scorer of his first team at the end of the season).
Eichel : In the NHL 57 points
Marchand : Not in the NHL one of the few elite late bloomer exceptions but there's an exception to all rule.
Kucherov : In the NHL 18 points in 52 games (not a great season but still played in the NHL and did 65 points the next season as a 21 years old)
Kane : In the NHL 70 points
Matthews : In the NHL 63 points
Huberdeau : In the NHL 28 points in 69 games (did 54 points the next season as a 21 years old)
Carlson : In the NHL 37 points (he's a dman for god sake and still did 37 points as a 20 years old)
Stamkos : In the NHL 91 points
Connor : Not in the NHL (did 57 points the season after as a 21 years old).
Scheifele : In the NHL 34 points in 63 games (did 49 points the season after as a 21 years old)
Marner : In the NHL 69 points
Malkin : In the NHL 85 points
Ovechkin : In the NHL 106 points
Pettersson : In the NHL 66 points
JT Miller : Not in the NHL (not really an elite player either in my book probably a career year)

So out of the top 20 scorers in the NHL right now 12 players were in the NHL at 20 and did over 50 points so 60% of them. One of the 8 players who did not meet that target is a dman and he did 36 points which is very good for a dman at that age and i would say an equivalent to 50 points. So i would lean toward saying 13 instead of 12.

Only 4 players were not in the NHL (played under 40 games) at 20 years old and one of them (Miller) is not what i would consider an elite player he's having a career year and another one was in the KHL which is a better league than the AHL in my book. I would not call not playing in the NHL at 20 years old for an elite player an exception but it's definitely not the rule. Also most of the players who did not meet the 50 points target as 20 years old did it the next season as 21 years old so not doing 50 points as a 21 years old for an elite player definitely lean toward being an exception.

It's not past midnight for JK but it's definitely slowly getting there if he can't play in the NHL next season and be somewhat productive. If he spend a full year in the AHL next season he'll already be out of the norm. If he doesn't do 50 points the season after as a 21 years old after spending a full year in the AHL then it will not look good at all as he'll fall in the exception territory and no team should bet on an exception to happen.

 

[Andrei79]

In itself it's almost like saying he is destroyed. He's a 3rd overall pick. A 3rd overall pick should not NEED a full AHL season at 20 years old. Half a season maybe. You can decide to keep him in the AHL if you got a cup contender but a 3rd overall pick should be able to play and look good in the NHL at 20 years old. Not on his prime but able to help.

I don't think he needs a full year in the AHL next year. He's been, with Hudon, the best forward there since being sent down.

I like what Bouchard said about developing good habits you can replicate every shift. With him, it's things like stick positioning, body positioning on the forecheck, adding pace to his game. He's doing that work right now.

The other part is growing into his body. Adding size and explosiveness will add a lot to his game. He probably didn't manage his off season as well as he could. I'm hoping he can come in like Suzuki did this year. It's not impossible, Suzuki came in slow and weak last year and both his strength and speed are fine this year.

 

[CHfan1]

Good point. A 3rd can bust either way. I just find that KKs skating and strength is a glaring issue that makes him more of a project than what most 3rd overall picks ought to be. It's what made Suzuki a mid first rather than a top 5.

For the record, I think KK will become a good player. I was just responding to the post saying that KK should be fully NHL ready after just a brief AHL stint. It's generally agreed upon that we drafted for need rather than BPA.

He’s going to take time, he needs to fill out his frame more and as he does he’ll get stronger on his skates.

I also think he’ll turn out to be a really good player, it’s just going to take patience and proper development. Something that was lacking and has been for awhile.

Also I agree they drafted for need.