Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - AHL edition

[1909]

Clod has done his best...............at making a mess of a kid, who was better last year.

Clod has been less than stellar this season, unless you ask Weal.

he was better because he was getting sheltered as hell. he was "so good" that he was unable to score a single goal on the road...

 

[montreal]

That being said, had he been sent down much earlier when it was obvious to anyone watching that things weren't getting any better, he could have regained his game in Laval and maybe now be ready to contribute as a call up.

this is what worries me about management, as it's the same with the whole Lefebvre thing as it took him 6 years to finally fire the guy. So it just has me wondering what the f*** goes through this guys head, how does he not see what is so very clear and it takes him this long to figure this shit out? That's extremely troubling and doubled when you have his boss sitting on his hands to warm them up so he can go back to counting his millions and shift his focus on to bigger and better cookies or some shit.

I get the guy has won some trades for sure but to rush every top prospect to the NHL and have it blow up in their face time and time again and yet he just keeps doing it over and over and over. In fact he's gotten worse, I mean who the f*** in their right mind calls up a 20 year goalie that just let in 14 goals in 3 games and a 20 year old center that was just benched. It's like having no clue what you are doing or just being really really bad at that part of your job.

Who knows what this could have meant for Laval and Kotka had he been sent down sooner instead of just letting Julien keep rolling him out there hoping he would figure it out yet as soon as he gets to the AHL he starts piling up the points. Same for Lefebvre, and by no means would I or likely anyone suggest that the greatest coach could have turned Beaulieu into Ray Bourque or Crisp into Super Mario but who knows what would have happened had it not taken 6 years to figure out he very clearly needed to fire him.

 

[Burke the Legend]

The narrative that he was rushed and bad development was ridiculous, a lot of strange agendas at work in this thread. KK earned that NHL roster spot and then had a very solid rookie campaign. Then this year went through some issues you could see would hurt his sophomore season but had nothing to do with Julien & management;

-Gained like 15-20lbs. would've seen adaption period to this.
-Groin injury in pre-season, tough one to heal
-Concussion in December

The one thing you can argue about is maybe he should have gone right to the AHL after coming back from the concussion but that is small potatoes and no harm in management giving the guy a few weeks to try and jump back into his NHL spot that he earned last year. He wasn't able to do it so he went down to regroup.

 

[Andy]

The narrative that he was rushed and bad development was ridiculous, a lot of strange agendas at work in this thread. KK earned that NHL roster spot and then had a very solid rookie campaign. Then this year went through some issues you could see would hurt his sophomore season but had nothing to do with Julien & management;

-Gained like 15-20lbs. would've seen adaption period to this.
-Groin injury in pre-season, tough one to heal
-Concussion in December

The one thing you can argue about is maybe he should have gone right to the AHL after coming back from the concussion but that is small potatoes and no harm in management giving the guy a few weeks to try and jump back into his NHL spot that he earned last year. He wasn't able to do it so he went down to regroup.

He should have gone directly to the ahl when it was clear that he wasn't going to beat out Suzuki and Danault at centre on a team fighting for a playoff spot, aka, a team that can't afford developing a centre when they are trying to make it to the post-season.

And I'm not blaming Julien, he had every right to not give KK more responsibility as he just isn't ready for more. It's just all the more in favor of sending him down if you can't give the player additional duties to round out his game.

 

[habergeon]

7 assists so far and no goals , he's back to his rookie year where he can't score outside of the Bell Center...

I think when he starts actually scoring goals this will be more indicative of his performance than points.
I mean, one of his weaknesses in the show was that he passed too much. He has a hell of a shot, and always deferred to other players (as a lot of young players too). I think his game will be better served when he starts capitalizing and creating his own chances, and taking advantage of them. This causes defense to collapse, which in turn opens up lanes for linemates.

I think this is what the organization is talking about when they say they want him to “be the man”. If he’s going to play top line minutes, he has to have the kind of confidence to play with a guy like Kovalchuk and be able to have the confidence to shoot his shot if he’s in a better position, instead of just always passing it off.

I’m sure Bouchard is in his ear already about that. Can't wait to see what happens.

 

[montreal]

The narrative that he was rushed and bad development was ridiculous, a lot of strange agendas at work in this thread. KK earned that NHL roster spot and then had a very solid rookie campaign. Then this year went through some issues you could see would hurt his sophomore season but had nothing to do with Julien & management

So an 18 year old center that played mostly wing the previous year in Ligga wasn't rushed to play in the best league in the world as one of the youngest players ever and in one of the toughest positions.

If he was so ready and not rushed, then why did Julien have to shelter him so much last year?

To me to suggest that Julien and management have nothing to do with his struggles is laughable.

But here's how smart our development team is,

they take a 3rd OA and make him one of the youngest players ever and center is one of the toughest positions yet they put him with a struggling Leks at the time and Armia. Yet we have a 7th round pick come up and his first game they put him with Domi and Kovalchuk. So how is it that they do exactly what many have been calling for for Kotka, Galchenyuk, Scherbak, etc.. but instead of doing that for highly skilled guys they do it for our 7th round pick.

Now i know that draft status means very little and they did this because Evans is a smart two way player that won't hurt you in his own end. But to me it shows where they go wrong, they focus so much on rewarding players that they trust defensively but f*** over the highly skilled guys that need help and coaching to improve their game yet end up on the bottom lines with grinders.

And yet people wonder why we can't develop offensive talent. Galchenyuk scores 30 and the next year Julien has him on the 4th line, or with DLR. But not his fault, he's trying to win games and get us into the playoffs, who cares if we keep messing up development wise.

 

[Mrb1p]

The narrative that he was rushed and bad development was ridiculous, a lot of strange agendas at work in this thread. KK earned that NHL roster spot and then had a very solid rookie campaign. Then this year went through some issues you could see would hurt his sophomore season but had nothing to do with Julien & management;

-Gained like 15-20lbs. would've seen adaption period to this.
-Groin injury in pre-season, tough one to heal
-Concussion in December

The one thing you can argue about is maybe he should have gone right to the AHL after coming back from the concussion but that is small potatoes and no harm in management giving the guy a few weeks to try and jump back into his NHL spot that he earned last year. He wasn't able to do it so he went down to regroup.

This would be true if march and april didnt happen last year.

He was rushed and all he did was survive intead of thriving offensively in a lower league
He started playing like he did in febuary last year, not at the start of this year
Yes injuries didnt help him

 

[Burke the Legend]

So an 18 year old center that played mostly wing the previous year in Ligga wasn't rushed to play in the best league in the world as one of the youngest players ever and in one of the toughest positions.

If he was so ready and not rushed, then why did Julien have to shelter him so much last year?

To me to suggest that Julien and management have nothing to do with his struggles is laughable.

But here's how smart our development team is,

they take a 3rd OA and make him one of the youngest players ever and center is one of the toughest positions yet they put him with a struggling Leks at the time and Armia. Yet we have a 7th round pick come up and his first game they put him with Domi and Kovalchuk. So how is it that they do exactly what many have been calling for for Kotka, Galchenyuk, Scherbak, etc.. but instead of doing that for highly skilled guys they do it for our 7th round pick.

Now i know that draft status means very little and they did this because Evans is a smart two way player that won't hurt you in his own end. But to me it shows where they go wrong, they focus so much on rewarding players that they trust defensively but **** over the highly skilled guys that need help and coaching to improve their game yet end up on the bottom lines with grinders.

And yet people wonder why we can't develop offensive talent. Galchenyuk scores 30 and the next year Julien has him on the 4th line, or with DLR. But not his fault, he's trying to win games and get us into the playoffs, who cares if we keep messing up development wise.

So what? KK was fine last year playing the NHL, how is this a complaint? Again he earned that spot and also both Leks and Armia are fine linemates. And what's wrong with being sheltered a bit too if he isn't ready for matching up against better lines? Finally Galchenyuk is a brain dead bum who just got dumped by his 3rd NHL team, that comparison is ridiculous but hey whatever suits your narrative.

 

[montreal]

So what? KK was fine last year playing the NHL, how is this a complaint? Again he earned that spot and also both Leks and Armia are fine linemates. And what's wrong with being sheltered a bit too if he isn't ready for matching up against better lines? Finally Galchenyuk is a brain dead bum who just got dumped by his 3rd NHL team, that comparison is ridiculous but hey whatever suits your narrative.

if he was so fine then why the need to shelter him? If they had to shelter him it shows they knew he wasn't ready. Also I don't want my 3rd OA pick to look just fine, I want to develop him into a 70 pt center, so imo it's better to that if you give your 3rd OA pick better wingers then just fine, you know like the ones our 7th round pick got. So why did he get put in the best position which was great to see but others can't get that benefit?

Galchenyuk scored 30 goals in the NHL, so I wouldn't call him a bum but to each their own.

I don't have a narrative, the Habs development track record under MB speaks volumes for me.

 

[MaxLac]

Wow, we don't have the same vision of the world at all, and of education in general...

I just hope you don't work in human resources, or in the educational field...

The dude forgot he wasn't on Reddit and that in here nobody assume that everybody else is being sarcastic.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

if he was so fine then why the need to shelter him? If they had to shelter him it shows they knew he wasn't ready.

Most young players get sheltered in their first season in the league.
Dahlin was sheltered last season (and is still this season), does that mean he wasnt ready?

 

[Mrb1p]

Most young players get sheltered in their first season in the league.
Dahlin was sheltered last season (and is still this season), does that mean he wasnt ready?

Dahlin put up more points than KK did as a Dman. Hes sheltered defensively but offensively he can play with anyone.

 

[BLONG7]

So an 18 year old center that played mostly wing the previous year in Ligga wasn't rushed to play in the best league in the world as one of the youngest players ever and in one of the toughest positions.

If he was so ready and not rushed, then why did Julien have to shelter him so much last year?

To me to suggest that Julien and management have nothing to do with his struggles is laughable.

But here's how smart our development team is,

they take a 3rd OA and make him one of the youngest players ever and center is one of the toughest positions yet they put him with a struggling Leks at the time and Armia. Yet we have a 7th round pick come up and his first game they put him with Domi and Kovalchuk. So how is it that they do exactly what many have been calling for for Kotka, Galchenyuk, Scherbak, etc.. but instead of doing that for highly skilled guys they do it for our 7th round pick.

Now i know that draft status means very little and they did this because Evans is a smart two way player that won't hurt you in his own end. But to me it shows where they go wrong, they focus so much on rewarding players that they trust defensively but **** over the highly skilled guys that need help and coaching to improve their game yet end up on the bottom lines with grinders.

And yet people wonder why we can't develop offensive talent. Galchenyuk scores 30 and the next year Julien has him on the 4th line, or with DLR. But not his fault, he's trying to win games and get us into the playoffs, who cares if we keep messing up development wise.

The Habs as an organization don't seem to have a clue, on how to develop their young players. MB/MT and now MB/CJ have to own this, we have almost zero results doing what they are doing...

 

[montreal]

Most young players get sheltered in their first season in the league.
Dahlin was sheltered last season (and is still this season), does that mean he wasnt ready?

I don't know if most young players get sheltered, Hughes, Makar, Pettersson, Tkachuk, none of them seemed to get sheltered although I don't follow the NHL anymore so I could be wrong.

Clearly Kotka wasn't ready or he wouldn't have just 2 assists this year as a playmaker. A sophomore slump is one thing but when you can't even do the thing your best at, that's a bad sign.

 

[Per Sjoblom]

Dahlin put up more points than KK did as a Dman. Hes sheltered defensively but offensively he can play with anyone.

That is a decent comparison since Dahlin is about the same age (3 months older than Jesperi). I actually still think both should have started in AHL for a year, that way getting used to the the smaller rinks and the type of play would probably have benefitted both players.

 

[sandviper]

How did you get that 17th ranking when central scouting separates North American and European rankings? And I believe their rankings were last updated in mid April. That's over 2 months before the draft.

Habs reached 2 picks to take KK when the waive of talent from 3-10 was very similar. Nice try

Responding here since I didn’t want to take the OOT thread off topic.

Yeah, I agree with you. Not sure where this belief that KK was ranked in the teens is coming from.

Yes, he was outside the top-10 in a fair amount of independent lists and closer to #20 than #10 at the start of the season, but players rise and fall all the time. Going into the draft itself, KK rose into the top-10 for a lot of scouts according to Bob’s list. KK was still a bit of a reach, but take a kid like Hayton who was much more of one (a reach) as I’m pretty sure going by memory that he was ranked around 15.

On a side note, I wasn’t high on Hayton draft day but he’s looking like he may be a solid center.

 

[sandviper]

That is a decent comparison since Dahlin is about the same age (3 months older than Jesperi). I actually still think both should have started in AHL for a year, that way getting used to the the smaller rinks and the type of play would probably have benefitted both players.

Dahlin is on a different level than most recent top-3 picks though. I think he’s where he should be. Sure, he’s going to struggle at times but he’s so good that he’ll be just fine. If we were to put the top-3 picks from the last 3 years in a bucket, I’d take Dahlin first still. Going back 4 years, tougher choice between him and Matthews.

I like KK, but he isn’t on the same playing field as Dahlin. That said, he did show he’s capable of playing in the NHL based off his performance last year. Problem is while his ceiling I think is high, his floor is also lower than Dahlin so when he falls, he falls much further than Dahlin.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Responding here since I didn’t want to take the OOT thread off topic.

Yeah, I agree with you. Not sure where this belief that KK was ranked in the teens is coming from.

Yes, he was outside the top-10 in a fair amount of independent lists and closer to #20 than #10 at the start of the season, but players rise and fall all the time. Going into the draft itself, KK rose into the top-10 for a lot of scouts according to Bob’s list. KK was still a bit of a reach, but take a kid like Hayton who was much more of one (a reach) as I’m pretty sure going by memory that he was ranked around 15.

On a side note, I wasn’t high on Hayton draft day but he’s looking like he may be a solid center.

Both Hayton and KK were rising stocks heading towards the draft. From what I remember, KK was ranked 20-25 range to start the year. 10-20 mid season, and 5-10 pre-draft. Can't remember how much movement Hayton had in that same time frame.

 

[montreal]

Canadiens want Kotkaniemi to get comfortable being 'the guy' again - Sportsnet.ca

“He’s a talented player that hasn’t been the guy for two years now. So now we’re asking him to be the guy, and we put him in enough situations so we can see the (failings) on some plays, some focus and assignments,” said Rocket coach Joel Bouchard.

“It’s the overall game that we’re (trying) to get with him over here and (the 200-foot one). So you know what? When a guy goes to the NHL, he’s got a limited role, he’s playing with NHL players that can cover up for him and there’s more on the frame when he gets over here — now he becomes the guy — so it’s (up to) him to lead the way with his play and, to me, he’s been doing his best, and then sometimes his best isn’t good enough.”

Ryan Poehling, who joined his Kotkaniemi in the AHL from the Canadiens on Saturday, also knows the difficulty of dwindling ice time and the value of opportunity.
“At the end of the day, the Montreal team, they have a lot of good players and a lot of them are centremen. I mean, it’s not good for him to play 10 minutes a night, he’s a skill guy, right? So he needs to play a lot of time. So I think down here he gets the chance, which he’s been able to succeed at, too,” he said.

 

[Hins77]

One thing i didnt like with his selection was, when timmins said. : « Tkachuk is maybe more NHL ready, but KK is younger and have a nice progression curve ». Im wondering why he just didnt took the « nhl ready « guy? He knows and tell to us thats Tkachuk is nhl ready over KK. Tkachuk has progress as much than KK. Tkachuk is not 5 years older than KK, 10 month i think. Im not a reference but i played hockey during all my teen years. I played with younger teemmates and i can tell you without i doubt. I was better than them at 14 years old. Im 27 years old and im still better than them. I mean. Does timmins is a god? Take the more nhl ready guy thats it. Tkachuk is progressing as hell right now. Thank you timmins. You pick a ?? Instead of an nhl ready guy

 

[sandviper]

One thing i didnt like with his selection was, when timmins said. : « Tkachuk is maybe more NHL ready, but KK is younger and have a nice progression curve ». Im wondering why he just didnt took the « nhl ready « guy? He knows and tell to us thats Tkachuk is nhl ready over KK. Tkachuk has progress as much than KK. Tkachuk is not 5 years older than KK, 10 month i think. Im not a reference but i played hockey during all my teen years. I played with younger teemmates and i can tell you without i doubt. I was better than them at 14 years old. Im 27 years old and im still better than them. I mean. Does timmins is a god? Take the more nhl ready guy thats it. Tkachuk is progressing as hell right now. Thank you timmins. You pick a ?? Instead of an nhl ready guy

I have no idea what TT’s meaning was truly when he said that, but I interpret it this way...

Tkachuk they perceived as more NHL-ready and closer to his potential. Kotkaniemi was more raw, and isn’t at his full potential.

My guess though is they felt Kotkaniemi would/will have the higher ceiling. In 5 years let’s say, Kotkaniemi would be the centrepiece of our team. Tkachuk they probably didn’t feel the same way.

Despite where both players are now, I don’t believe Tkachuk would tip the scales for the Canadiens anymore than Kotkaniemi given where the TEAM is now. Also consider Ottawa is absolute trash again this year as well, so it’s not like Tkachuk is carrying that team, just as I don’t feel he’d carry us either.

In 3-5 years, this may look like a bad pick, but I still maintain despite the setbacks this year, it’s waaayyy too early to tell.

 

[Number 57]

One thing i didnt like with his selection was, when timmins said. : « Tkachuk is maybe more NHL ready, but KK is younger and have a nice progression curve ». Im wondering why he just didnt took the « nhl ready « guy? He knows and tell to us thats Tkachuk is nhl ready over KK. Tkachuk has progress as much than KK. Tkachuk is not 5 years older than KK, 10 month i think. Im not a reference but i played hockey during all my teen years. I played with younger teemmates and i can tell you without i doubt. I was better than them at 14 years old. Im 27 years old and im still better than them. I mean. Does timmins is a god? Take the more nhl ready guy thats it. Tkachuk is progressing as hell right now. Thank you timmins. You pick a ?? Instead of an nhl ready guy

You are right in saying that it's not because a player is younger that he has more potential. But it is Timmins' job to judge who has the best potential, regardless of age. Timmins should analyse every data available (age, progression curve, skills, advanced stats, hockey sense, size, work ethic, etc) and make an educated guess. He needs to predict who will be the best player at age 25-30... not 2 years after the draft.

For the record I would be happy with Tkachuk right now. But if Timmins thinks Kotkaniemi can be a #1 center like Barkov, then you have to pick him and be patient. Tkachuk will be a good physical winger 50-60 pts that can play 1st line and really be annoying to the opponent. But KK could be a 80 pts first line center. Let's hope Bouchard can work some magic

 

[417]

So an 18 year old center that played mostly wing the previous year in Ligga wasn't rushed to play in the best league in the world as one of the youngest players ever and in one of the toughest positions.

If he was so ready and not rushed, then why did Julien have to shelter him so much last year?

To me to suggest that Julien and management have nothing to do with his struggles is laughable.

But here's how smart our development team is,

they take a 3rd OA and make him one of the youngest players ever and center is one of the toughest positions yet they put him with a struggling Leks at the time and Armia. Yet we have a 7th round pick come up and his first game they put him with Domi and Kovalchuk. So how is it that they do exactly what many have been calling for for Kotka, Galchenyuk, Scherbak, etc.. but instead of doing that for highly skilled guys they do it for our 7th round pick.

Now i know that draft status means very little and they did this because Evans is a smart two way player that won't hurt you in his own end. But to me it shows where they go wrong, they focus so much on rewarding players that they trust defensively but **** over the highly skilled guys that need help and coaching to improve their game yet end up on the bottom lines with grinders.

And yet people wonder why we can't develop offensive talent. Galchenyuk scores 30 and the next year Julien has him on the 4th line, or with DLR. But not his fault, he's trying to win games and get us into the playoffs, who cares if we keep messing up development wise.

You nailed this one...standing ovation

 

[Scintillating10]

Hopefully he gets back on track playing first line minutes for Joel. Koktaniemi played well last season. Not sure I am sold on the rush thingy. He was mint at times. Lol

I think injuries set him back this sesson.

 

[ottawa]

No points last game, wondering what's going on.