Player Discussion Jay Beagle

TruGr1t

Proper Villain
Jun 26, 2003
23,140
6,819
so much is based on the idea benning doesn't know he's overpaying guys.

what if benning sat in a room with you and said

"aquagrit, with the sedins gone and the way things went last year even with the sedins, i think we need these kind of guys and we will have to overpay badly to get them because nobody we want is coming here otherwise when they can chase a cup. we will take our lumps later with their eventual deadweight salaries but the betting is we are going to suck badly next year and that can cripple the development of our young guys like it has on other teams. signing these guys will be good for keeping things where you need them in the room and off the ice while the young guys are coming up, and maybe more than that if the kids can get on a roll."

because that's what i think he said. and i think aquaman said ok with his eyes open. and i think it worked out ok in year one.

Fair enough. The issue is talent identification. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea. It's just the execution has been abysmal. They cannot identify pro-level talent clearly, so the guys they chose to overpay in those roles are not just overpaid ... they also aren't very effective.

They looked at Beagle and saw he'd just won a Cup (these are the depth guys you should basically never sign), said "character," and then decided to overpay him for some reason. The fact Beagle isn't very good at hockey apparently did not factor into the equation. This is concerning.
 

Megaterio Llamas

el rey del mambo
Oct 29, 2011
11,224
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North Shore
From everything I have read about Beagle from Caps fans he seems like he was a real heart and soul player in his younger years. You could argue that he has earned this fat retirement contract. From the Caps, of course. Not from the Canucks.
 

timw33

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Nov 18, 2007
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From everything I have read about Beagle from Caps fans he seems like he was a real heart and soul player in his younger years. You could argue that he has earned this fat retirement contract. From the Caps, of course. Not from the Canucks.

That's the crazy thing. He soldiered for them for years, put his body on the line and got used up by the Capitals, then should have received a nice contract bump if they didn't have such a cap crunch from assembling too good of a team.

So essentially we're paying Jay Beagle on behalf of Ted Leonis right now. Thank you for winning a cup for another team, Jay.
 

Megaterio Llamas

el rey del mambo
Oct 29, 2011
11,224
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Type = Bad

One was signed to an elite 3rd line centre contract. The other was signed to be a top 6 forward. Those are the prices we paid and we aren't getting performances commensurate with said prices.
You could actually use Eriksson and Beagle in a similarities and differences test item as similarities under the heading of 'bad Vancouver Canucks free agent contracts. They are uncannily similar in a bad contract/wasted money sense.
 

Megaterio Llamas

el rey del mambo
Oct 29, 2011
11,224
5,936
North Shore
That's the crazy thing. He soldiered for them for years, put his body on the line and got used up by the Capitals, then should have received a nice contract bump if they didn't have such a cap crunch from assembling too good of a team.

So essentially we're paying Jay Beagle on behalf of Ted Leonis right now. Thank you for winning a cup for another team, Jay.
Ol' Jimbo, you know. He's a sentimental sonovagun. Nicest guy you'll ever meet they say. Real soft touch.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
9,516
Fair enough. The issue is talent identification. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea. It's just the execution has been abysmal. They cannot identify pro-level talent clearly, so the guys they chose to overpay in those roles are not just overpaid ... they also aren't very effective.

They looked at Beagle and saw he'd just won a Cup (these are the depth guys you should basically never sign), said "character," and then decided to overpay him for some reason. The fact Beagle isn't very good at hockey apparently did not factor into the equation. This is concerning.

the trouble is that if you had a guy like beagle who was better at hockey you'd have guy charboneau and we don't get that guy as a ufa.
 
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Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
22,315
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Hiding under WTG's bed...
Interestingly enough, the Blues were able to trade for Carbonneau for a journeyman player when the former was around a few years older than Beagle. Only a rental though as the signed with Stars later.
 

Cogburn

Pretend they're yachts.
May 28, 2010
15,073
4,470
Vancouver
Beagle is a horrendous signing. That Aqualini is able to look at that deal and trust his $$$ to Benning this Summer...........wow.

Eriksson was worse.

Gudbranson was worse, although it would have been shorter.

Sutter was even worse than those two (a six year extension without setting foot on the ice).

Benning should have had the purse strings closed on him long ago.

I think anyone (not you specifically) that is upset about Beagles contract is focussing on the wrong part of this. I don't even think Beagle is that bad, overpayment or not. Not good, certainly, but we have to over pay at this stage to get pieces we want. I don't know that Beagle was the right piece per se, but he's on even the worst contract on this team. We're paying Beagle to do our crap work, and its high, but Eriksson and Sutter are far, far worse.

Plus I'd rather have Beagle and even Schaller at their current contracts than have a second Eriksson, which lets face it, Benning will do if we have the cap space.
 
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Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
well no. that's completely, utterly and ludicrously wrong. objectivity is not coextensive with empirical measurement. objectivity is the honest fair minded and unbiased assessment of the facts that you perceive, regardless of any subjective beliefs or biases you hold. you don't need a ruler to be objective.

there is a massive chasm between facts that can be measured empirically by a number and the kind of feeling or opinion that would be considered "subjective". inhabiting that chasm are all the facts that reasonably exist but are not readily quantified, aka most of reality. even if you cannot quantify such facts, you must consider and weigh those facts as best you can if you are being objective.

Just want to better understand your position.

Am I right in saying that your stance is that the value of intangibles (as it relates to hockey and hockey players) is an objective assessment; even though it can't be empirically quantified?

If I'm reading your last few posts on this subject incorrectly could you please clarify. Find this line of discussion very interesting.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
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Just want to better understand your position.

Am I right in saying that your stance is that the value of intangibles (as it relates to hockey and hockey players) is an objective assessment; even though it can't be empirically quantified?

If I'm reading your last few posts on this subject incorrectly could you please clarify. Find this line of discussion very interesting.

close. i am saying the current scope of analytics analysis is not coextensive with objective reality. for one thing, many if not most so called intangibles are actually empirically observable events or actions that are simply not systematically tracked or classified by analytics. that is one reason the field of analytics is constantly expanding and changing.

so the existence of "intangibles" is a fact that needs to be considered when objectively considering the value of a player. you must do your best to assess those intangibles based on the evidence available to you. i'm also not suggesting there is a fixed empirical method for reliable valuation. such systems almost never work. luckily we have a free market to help with the task.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
close. i am saying the current scope of analytics analysis is not coextensive with objective reality. for one thing, many if not most so called intangibles are actually empirically observable events or actions that are simply not systematically tracked or classified by analytics. that is one reason the field of analytics is constantly expanding and changing.

so the existence of "intangibles" is a fact that needs to be considered when objectively considering the value of a player. you must do your best to assess those intangibles based on the evidence available to you. i'm also not suggesting there is a fixed empirical method for reliable valuation. such systems almost never work. luckily we have a free market to help with the task.

Could you provide an example of an intangible that is actually an empirically observable event? I'm having a hard time grounding this to a specific example.

Also, I would disagree that the 'market' helps value some of these aspects we are talking about as there is a lot tied into calling free agency a free market. To apply free market economics to NHL free agency is far too simplistic as NHL free agency is missing almost all the characteristics that defines a classic free market economy where supply and demand drives prices. That is a different discussion entirely though.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
9,516
Could you provide an example of an intangible that is actually an empirically observable event? I'm having a hard time grounding this to a specific example.

Also, I would disagree that the 'market' helps value some of these aspects we are talking about as there is a lot tied into calling free agency a free market. To apply free market economics to NHL free agency is far too simplistic as NHL free agency is missing almost all the characteristics that defines a classic free market economy where supply and demand drives prices. That is a different discussion entirely though.

depends on how sophisticated you want to get.

you could track his positioning throughout a game

you could track instances of covering for team mates

you could track instances of recovering position on a turnover

you could track instances of neutralizing a turnover, either completely, or delaying to negate advantage

you could track his defensive performances late in shifts

you could track his ability to get timely clearances or whistles after extended possession

you could track and evaluate how he sets up linemates for defensive faceoffs and zone coverage

you could track his involvement in after whistle scrums and outcomes

you could put an isolation camera on him on the bench and observe and record different types of interactions

or you could just ask the coaches and team mates what they think of the guy in those situations.
 
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Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
depends on how sophisticated you want to get.

you could track his positioning throughout a game

you could track instances of covering for team mates

you could track instances of recovering position on a turnover

you could track instances of neutralizing a turnover, either completely, or delaying to negate advantage

you could track his defensive performances late in shifts

you could track his ability to get timely clearances or whistles after extended possession

you could track and evaluate how he sets up linemates for defensive faceoffs and zone coverage

you could track his involvement in after whistle scrums and outcomes

you could put an isolation camera on him on the bench and observe and record different types of interactions

or you could just ask the coaches and team mates what they think of the guy in those situations.

Cheers. Thanks for the response.

A lot of what you have listed there I wouldn't necessarily put in the 'intangibles' bucket so I guess we just have different definitions and are talking about different things. Lots of those, I think, could be bore out of the on-ice play and we are seeing people trying to quantify these events (such as positioning etc). Specifically, I can agree with your posts that these could/should be quantifiable and thus talked about in an objective manner. We also see this in a lot of the post game discussions where certain posters break down how players did and a large part of this is talking about offensive/defensive positioning or creating turnovers etc. In my opinion these are all objective discussions.

Typically, when someone mentions 'intangibles' I'm thinking of the aspects that people talk about a guy 'being good in the room', 'providing leadership', and 'sticking up for teammates'. Which, in my opinion, aren't objective areas of evaluating a hockey player. From my perspective your list of examples are mostly things we could talk about in an objective way while there are a couple I would contend are subjective. Such as observing different types of interactions on the bench or asking coaches and teammates what they think of a guy.

If we are classifying different things as intangible then we really aren't discussing the same thing.
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
9,516
Typically, when someone mentions 'intangibles' I'm thinking of the aspects that people talk about a guy 'being good in the room', 'providing leadership', and 'sticking up for teammates'. Which, in my opinion, aren't objective areas of evaluating a hockey player. From my perspective your list of examples are mostly things we could talk about in an objective way while there are a couple I would contend are subjective. Such as observing different types of interactions on the bench or asking coaches and teammates what they think of a guy.

If we are classifying different things as intangible then we really aren't discussing the same thing.

those things are objectively real, just harder to track and tabulate, analyse and project precisely. for example, a player may be objectively fantastic in one locker room and ineffective in another based on the personalities involved. it is impossible to evaluate all the variables that go into a guy being usefully good in a locker room, so you end up with an objective fact "beagle is good in the caps dressing room as a beloved soldier who does the little things and inspired and pushed his teammates". from there benning made a projection: "i will gamble that will translate into our much worse dressing room based on my experience as a hockey guy and taking into account stuff like the fact he just won a cup and has the rep he does will give him immediate credibility and make players interested in what he has to say."

what you are arguing is not objectivity. you are simply arguing it is a bad idea to pay for things that are hard to quantify, analyse sand project with certainty because it's too easy to overpay. that's a value judgment i don't disagree with to a point, but it's not one based on objectivity. in fact, objectively speaking, it's leaving value on the table for things you know exist because you lack data to reliably evaluate them.

let me give you an extreme example to illustrate.

chris pronger was deliberately and strategically an intimidating player. he did things like warn guys that if they did certain things he would crush them and then follow through if they did. you cannot easily track that watching tape but it worked. some guys changed their game when playing him and were partially neutralized.

that characteristic of his game is very hard to observe and tabulate but it was real enough that even a casual hockey fan could perceive it. now, extending the hypothetical, if you knew chris pronger the ufa had a shoulder injury from which he was fully recovered to play his normal hockey game but could no longer fight or throw heavy hits, you would realize that this part of his game would be severely compromised and his effectiveness as a hockey player would likely be reduced. you would objectively devalue him accordingly even though you could not precisely evaluate the impact on his came..

the evaluation of a player like beagle is the same thing with smaller inputs. he's a guy you know is good in one room and you hope will be good in another. you know he's getting older and that part of his rep is built on his history with one team. you evaluate that and take a chance on signing him or not.

i can certainly understand some folks saying they won't take the risk for that kind of uncertainty. but i can't grasp the folks who claim that objectively the qualities a guy like beagle has are not real and should not be evaluated when looking at hockey players. i totally disagree with that. as between nic dowd and beagle, all things being equal the decision is not remotely close as to who you sign for the same money because one is objectively more valuable than the other even factoring in age. the only issue is how much more you will pay, which varies according to your risk profile and hockey experience and judgment.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
those things are objectively real, just harder to track and tabulate, analyse and project precisely. for example, a player may be objectively fantastic in one locker room and ineffective in another based on the personalities involved. it is impossible to evaluate all the variables that go into a guy being usefully good in a locker room, so you end up with an objective fact "beagle is good in the caps dressing room as a beloved soldier who does the little things and inspired and pushed his teammates". from there benning made a projection: "i will gamble that will translate into our much worse dressing room based on my experience as a hockey guy and taking into account stuff like the fact he just won a cup and has the rep he does will give him immediate credibility and make players interested in what he has to say."

what you are arguing is not objectivity. you are simply arguing it is a bad idea to pay for things that are hard to quantify, analyse sand project with certainty because it's too easy to overpay. that's a value judgment i don't disagree with to a point, but it's not one based on objectivity. in fact, objectively speaking, it's leaving value on the table for things you know exist because you lack data to reliably evaluate them.

There are some presuppositions in here I don't automatically agree with.

I would not agree that you can say someone is 'objectively fantastic' in a locker room. As you mentioned - Beagle being 'a beloved soldier who does the little things and inspired and pushed his teammates' is based on teammates/coaches personal feels, tastes and opinions - which is the definition of subjective. How do you quantify Beagle being fantastic in a locker room without pointing at the personal feelings/opinions of those around him? I can't think of a way.

You bring up another interesting point above. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that the Capitals room is good and the Canucks room is bad (or at least worse than the Capitals). How did you come to this conclusion? Is it strictly because the Capitals are objectively a good hockey team and the Canucks are objectively a bad hockey team (according to standings etc.)? Does that imply that all good hockey teams have good rooms and all bad hockey teams have bad rooms? What, specifically, makes the Canucks room objectively bad?
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
9,516
There are some presuppositions in here I don't automatically agree with.

I would not agree that you can say someone is 'objectively fantastic' in a locker room. As you mentioned - Beagle being 'a beloved soldier who does the little things and inspired and pushed his teammates' is based on teammates/coaches personal feels, tastes and opinions - which is the definition of subjective. How do you quantify Beagle being fantastic in a locker room without pointing at the personal feelings/opinions of those around him? I can't think of a way.

it is possible to objectively observe that beagle's team mates like him and find him a positive influence in the dressing room. again, i think you are imposing an empirical measurement constraint on the word objective that does not exist. i can objectively observe that my daughter loves the colour blue. that is a fact, even though her love of that colour is an irrational and subjective one.

upoil said:
You bring up another interesting point above. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that the Capitals room is good and the Canucks room is bad (or at least worse than the Capitals). How did you come to this conclusion? Is it strictly because the Capitals are objectively a good hockey team and the Canucks are objectively a bad hockey team (according to standings etc.)? Does that imply that all good hockey teams have good rooms and all bad hockey teams have bad rooms? What, specifically, makes the Canucks room objectively bad?

actually i am implying that is what benning thought, which is why the statement you quoted is found in an imagined quote disclosing benning's rationale. i believe benning thought that because it was widely reported that benning did not like how the team handled adversity and negativity last year and knew the sedins were retiring.

my own personal view is the team has had surprisingly decent morale throughout this extended down period, but i certainly agree they seemed lost at times during the sedins' last season and lacked the push back that a self respecting team usually offers dating further back than that. there was a big improvement this year, but i think that in part stems from a changing of the guard to folks who are not as inclined to turn the other cheek as the sedins. i'd still like to see a little more attitude.
 
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Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
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it is possible to objectively observe that beagle's team mates like him and find him a positive influence in the dressing room. again, i think you are imposing an empirical measurement constraint on the word objective that does not exist. i can objectively observe that my daughter loves the colour blue. that is a fact, even though her love of that colour is an irrational and subjective one.

I'm not trying to impose an empirical measurement constraint - more of an independent observer constraint.

If we agree that Beagle's teammates in Washington objectively liked him and found him to be a positive influence in the Capital dressing room it does not follow, in my opinion, that Beagle will be liked and seen as a positive influence in all dressing rooms. As the aspect of being 'liked' and being a 'positive influence' are subjective to the individual players in the Capital's dressing room at that time. Not everyone likes the same types of people and not everyone is motivated the same way.

Either way - appreciate the conversation. I'm going to tap out now as it's Friday and I have some beers with my name on them.

(Side note - get your shift key looked at ;))
 

krutovsdonut

eeyore
Sep 25, 2016
16,843
9,516
If we agree that Beagle's teammates in Washington objectively liked him and found him to be a positive influence in the Capital dressing room it does not follow, in my opinion, that Beagle will be liked and seen as a positive influence in all dressing rooms. As the aspect of being 'liked' and being a 'positive influence' are subjective to the individual players in the Capital's dressing room at that time. Not everyone likes the same types of people and not everyone is motivated the same way.

you are debating the utility of the objective information not its objectivity. i agree with you that dressing rooms vary and you cannot be sure a guy will be liked in a second room as he was in the first. but no one scores at exactly the same rate with different linemates on different teams using different systems either. that doesn't mean the observation that a player scored x goals on one team is not objective.

upoil said:
Either way - appreciate the conversation. I'm going to tap out now as it's Friday and I have some beers with my name on them.

(Side note - get your shift key looked at ;))

agreed. have a good one.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
21,242
14,414
For just once, I wish Jimbo and the hockey ops gurus would just adopt one basic principle when it comes to UFA signings --"Never offer big money and particularly longer-term contracts to a player over the age of 30."

It would have caused them a lot less grief, not to mention being forced to eat the contracts of bottom-six forwards who contribute virtually nothing night after night.
 

Zippgunn

Registered User
May 15, 2011
3,949
1,647
Lhuntshi
It's only silly if you want to manage the Canucks like a computer game.

In the real world, being able to convince a respected 1 team vet like Beagle to commit 4 years of his life to play hard for your embarrassing tire-fire-that's-been-burning-for-4-years bottom feeder of a team is a fairly significant thing and IMO, signifies a major shift in the right direction for this team.

In the real world, stars like panarin and karlsson don't sign with teams like ours.

Cap management is fine. Cap keeps going up.

Pro scouting is fine (so far). Beagle is an on-ice leader and he plays a hard and heavy game which gives our bottom 6 a good boost in the grit department. He also very rarely takes shifts off.

This. Panarin and Karlsson wouldn't sign here for all the tea in China, nor would most top flight players. Thus we consistently have to overpay players and give them excessive term time and time again...
 

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