Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Sabresfansince1980]

I should not waste my time, but I have seen too many people repeat the same nonsense about how Botts came into a horrible situation. It's absurd.

The team when Murray was canned was not a bottom 5 team. It was around 80 points, with Baby Jack and Sam.

The team had all of its first round picks. They had a still valuable Nylander. They had a valuable Guhle. A well respected Risto. Kane. O'Reilly.

Let's all live in reality. Was the team stacked? No. But then again teams seldom hire new GMs when everything is perfect.

But were they setup well for the longterm and the short? Yes they were. They had a couple bad deals, but some good ones, elc's for the twins, great cap for O'Reilly, Risto.

Then Botts did absolutely nothing to impactfully build the team in year one. Hired a moron with a bad resume, who was awful and they failed unimaginably bad.

And then the heavens opened up and we actually won a lottery and got the best prospect at the most needed position. And then Jeff Skinner became available with such a limited list of teams he was given away.

Now realistically anybody, feel free to explain how botts got a raw unimaginably bad starting point.

I mean crap, the delusions need to stop. Murray failed because he didn't do good enough. Botts has been failing because he didn't do good enough.

Botts wasn't buried by anything. He buried himself with trash choices like trading O'Reilly for poop, keeping a coach who was horrible for a year longer than necessary, picking up bad cap hits for bums and not finding the right deal to bring enough offensive talent to win.

It wasn't good enough when @struckbyaparkedcar was validly describing how they were not identifying or even trying low cost options.

It wasn't good enough to let a young team have to eat two full seasons of Housley.

It wasn't good enough to go into 3 consecutive seasons with the exact same number of impact forwards as the gm you replaced left you with.

I get that nobody wants to admit they were really wrong about something they argued for collectively. But its exhausting to have people tell you ignore your lying eyes day after day.

I'm going to waste my own time by spelling this out again. Murray came in with a horde of extra assets...and wasted most of them in order to build half a roster with no quality future depth. Botterill came in after the extra assets were gone. Point wise, the team was not going to get any better. Lehner was still going to have personal problems, O'Reilly was still going to lose his motivation, and Kane was still going to be a headache off the ice and not re-sign. There was nothing Murray could do to make that team better if he stayed, and he probably makes it worse with more big-swing trades.

Take a look at this list of Murray's moves -Murray's drafts and trades

The extra picks he had from the Vanek trade (and others), and from the Miller trade he did himself, were wasted in future trades.

For example, let's look at #1 on the list, the last "tear down" trade and what he did with it after cutting through all the turnover of assets that followed...

Miller, Ott, 2015 3rd, 2016 3rd, Pysyk, 2016 2nd, 2016 3rd,

for (after sifting through the trades of Halak, Neuvirth, Stewart, and picks)

1st used in the Kane/Bogo trade, Chad Johnson, Karabacek, and Asplund.

That's pathetic. That's pathetic, and that entire chain of downward trades is not even in the top three of his worst, future depth gutting moves. There's still the trades for Fasching/Des (lost McNabb and two 2nds), Kane/Bogo (lost a 2015 1st and a slew of lesser assets), and Lehner/Legwand (another 2015 1st). I'll just stick this link here as a reminder for those who forget...

Sabres still paying for the sins of Tim Murray

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

"Botteril had nothing to work with."

The guy traded away a top 10 C for nothing. He had plenty to work with if he doesn't take the worst deal imaginable for RoR. Actually less than nothing when you consider Sobotka's contract is potentially preventing us from making trades. Actually less than less than nothing when you consider Berglund retiring immensely helped out the team.

And we all know there was a massive extenuating circumstance to that trade.

 

[Chainshot]

"Botteril had nothing to work with."

The guy traded away a top 10 C for nothing. He had plenty to work with if he doesn't take the worst deal imaginable for RoR. Actually less than nothing when you consider Sobotka's contract is potentially preventing us from making trades. Actually less than less than nothing when you consider Berglund retiring immensely helped out the team.

He had shown himself to be a grade A dufus with regard to trade value, forward evaluation and goaltending. He may want to go on hoarders regarding his obsession with PMDs, and defensemen in general.

 

[Ace]

He brought everyone back except Pominville.

On purpose.

On purpose.

 

[Fjordy]

It's time, Jason, there's nowhere to pull anymore.

 

[Zman5778]

It's time, Jason, there's nowhere to pull anymore.

Time to do what? We're royally ****ed with the cap until we're healthy, and probably even once we get healthy.

No one is going to want Vesey or Sheary. Scandella won't return anything more than a pick. Same with Bogosian. Same with McCabe. Risto? Who knows where his value is.

Montour would have some value -- but would we really trade him? Same with Joker.

I don't see anything that Botts can do that isn't just rearranging deck chairs........unless he goes for a mega shake-up and deals Reinhart.

 

[Fjordy]

Time to do what? We're royally ****ed with the cap until we're healthy, and probably even once we get healthy.

No one is going to want Vesey or Sheary. Scandella won't return anything more than a pick. Same with Bogosian. Same with McCabe. Risto? Who knows where his value is.

Montour would have some value -- but would we really trade him? Same with Joker.

I don't see anything that Botts can do that isn't just rearranging deck chairs........unless he goes for a mega shake-up and deals Reinhart.

So who is to blame? He made this situation, that we don’t have a cap, we have too many defenders, we don’t have depth and good players in the attack, now let him fix the situation or go to fired. Trade picks, Sheary/Vesey can well be given for the average choice, many teams still need defenders, enough to sit and do nothing.

This is not an excuse that we do not have a cap, this is a problem that must be solved here and now!

 

[Zman5778]

So who is to blame? He made this situation, that we don’t have a cap, we have too many defenders, we don’t have depth and good players in the attack, now let him fix the situation or go to fired. Trade picks, Sheary/Vesey can well be given for the average choice, many teams still need defenders, enough to sit and do nothing.

This is not an excuse that we do not have a cap, this is a problem that must be solved here and now!

Who is to blame? Many, many, many, many people. This isn't just on Botts. Some of it is on Murray. Some of it is on Pegula. Some of it is on Botts. Some of it is on the players. There's a LOT of blame to go around and there isn't some easy fix.

The good news is that we can basically hit the reset button this offseason. Most of the dead weight evaporates away and we can move forward with who we WANT to move forward with as opposed to who we have right now.

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that this is going to be another mostly lost season.

 

[Chainshot]

He needed to pay the draft pick cost to ditch Sobotka's contract over the summer and not bring in a bag of shit like Vesey.

 

[Chainshot]

Time to do what? We're royally ****ed with the cap until we're healthy, and probably even once we get healthy.

No one is going to want Vesey or Sheary. Scandella won't return anything more than a pick. Same with Bogosian. Same with McCabe. Risto? Who knows where his value is.

Montour would have some value -- but would we really trade him? Same with Joker.

I don't see anything that Botts can do that isn't just rearranging deck chairs........unless he goes for a mega shake-up and deals Reinhart.

They're actually f***ed worse when they are all healthy.

 

[sabremike]

Who is to blame? Many, many, many, many people. This isn't just on Botts. Some of it is on Murray. Some of it is on Pegula. Some of it is on Botts. Some of it is on the players. There's a LOT of blame to go around and there isn't some easy fix.

The good news is that we can basically hit the reset button this offseason. Most of the dead weight evaporates away and we can move forward with who we WANT to move forward with as opposed to who we have right now.

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that this is going to be another mostly lost season.

Problem: almost all of that cap space will be eaten up just to keep guys we already have.

 

[Fjordy]

Who is to blame? Many, many, many, many people. This isn't just on Botts. Some of it is on Murray. Some of it is on Pegula. Some of it is on Botts. Some of it is on the players. There's a LOT of blame to go around and there isn't some easy fix.

The good news is that we can basically hit the reset button this offseason. Most of the dead weight evaporates away and we can move forward with who we WANT to move forward with as opposed to who we have right now.

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that this is going to be another mostly lost season.

But I did not accept and disagree. The head coach said before the season that we will fight for the playoffs until the last, so let the GM provide him with the resources for this or leaves and we need a bolder and more smart GM. He is in the team for the third season and hasn’t yet brought our closer to the playoffs, rather put it off with ROR deal and some other moves.

 

[joshjull]

Who is to blame? Many, many, many, many people. This isn't just on Botts. Some of it is on Murray. Some of it is on Pegula. Some of it is on Botts. Some of it is on the players. There's a LOT of blame to go around and there isn't some easy fix.

The good news is that we can basically hit the reset button this offseason. Most of the dead weight evaporates away and we can move forward with who we WANT to move forward with as opposed to who we have right now.

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that this is going to be another mostly lost season.

Ultimately the blame falls on Pegula for his impulsive decision making that led to Patty Lafontaine getting hired which ultimately led to Murray. We needed experienced hockey minds during that time frame not those two (Patty/Murray)

 

[Zman5778]

Ultimately the blame falls on Pegula for his impulsive decision making that led to Patty Lafontaine getting hired and ultimately to Murray.

I often wonder what would have happened had Regier stayed around through the rebuild.

 

[Ehran]

Who is to blame?

I didn't like the Vesey signing when it happened, but I could understand it. Over the past 3 years (his only 3 years) he had scored 16, 17, 17 goals.

Is he an elite goal scorer? No. But he is (was) a proven depth scorer. Defensive inadequacies aside, pairing him with Mittelstadt *should* have given that line someone who has proven capable of scoring.

The question is, why do all the players that come to Buffalo regress so badly? Every. Freaking. One. (Except Skinner)

 

[joshjull]

I often wonder what would have happened had Regier stayed around through the rebuild.

Probably the slow plodding approach Botts is currently taking. Which would have been great back then. Its maddening right now.

 

[Zman5778]

Problem: almost all of that cap space will be eaten up just to keep guys we already have.

It's not going to take anywhere near $34m to keep the guys we want to keep. The only ones due for substantial raises are Reinhart and Montour. At MOST, that's about $15m of cap space.......probably closer to $13M-ish.

We're set up VERY, VERY well cap-wise moving forward. I just question if Botterill is the guy to manage what is likely to be an overhaul of 2/3rds of the roster.

 

[Zman5778]

Probably the slow plodding approach Botts is currently taking. Which would have been great back then. Its maddening right now.

Agreed on both counts. Murray's rushjob is still affecting us now.

 

[Chainshot]

Probably the slow plodding approach Botts is currently taking. Which would have been great back then. Its maddening right now.

Shitty drafting and development were a hallmark of Regier's tenure, even after Pegula unleashed the money train.

 

[kirby11]

Botts makes Regier look like a riverboat gambler

 

[joshjull]

****ty drafting and development were a hallmark of Regier's tenure, even after Pegula unleashed the money train.

That’s true.


I think Botts plan will eventually work out. Not sure he will be here to see though.

 

[Zman5778]

****ty drafting and development were a hallmark of Regier's tenure, even after Pegula unleashed the money train.

Always wondered what happened there. At the beginning of his tenure, he was always unearthing gems (Campbell, Kotalik, Miller, Wideman, Hejda, Sekera, Kaleta, Butler, Gerbe) outside of the first 2 rounds.............and then the well ran empty.

 

[joshjull]

Always wondered what happened there. At the beginning of his tenure, he was always unearthing gems (Campbell, Kotalik, Miller, Wideman, Hejda, Sekera, Kaleta, Butler, Gerbe) outside of the first 2 rounds.............and then the well ran empty.

I think Golisano and doing everything on a budget happened leading to the drop off. Scouting was gutted and the infamous videos scouting was implemented.

 

[jc17]

Miller, Ott, 2015 3rd, 2016 3rd, Pysyk, 2016 2nd, 2016 3rd,

for (after sifting through the trades of Halak, Neuvirth, Stewart, and picks)

1st used in the Kane/Bogo trade, Chad Johnson, Karabacek, and Asplund.

That's pathetic. That's pathetic, and that entire chain of downward trades is not even in the top three of his worst, future depth gutting moves. There's still the trades for Fasching/Des (lost McNabb and two 2nds), Kane/Bogo (lost a 2015 1st and a slew of lesser assets), and Lehner/Legwand (another 2015 1st). I'll just stick this link here as a reminder for those who forget...

That's worse than I thought.

It partially explains the situation we're in but doesn't exonerate Botterill either, I think both can be true. Jason can't be entirely blamed for the current situation, but seeing Vesey, Sheary, Sobotka as solutions for our forward's issues have little to do with Murray's moves.

The argument can be made that we'd have guys in the system playing those roles if not for Murray, which may be true, but Botterill is also at fault for wasting assets getting lousy players.

If the team stunk, and Botterill was handcuffed into a few AHLers because of cap reasons or a lack of assets literally preventing him from getting players, I'd understand, but the team is struggling after sacrificing more assets for players that aren't the solution.

 

[joshjull]

We seem to f*** up the timing of everything. We needed the money bags owner after the bankruptcy. I still appreciate what Golisano did to save the team. But many of the penny pinching policies he and Quinn implemented killed our scouting while simultaneously crippling our ability to keep the talent on the NHL roster. It was a double whammy. Which directly led to the need to strip it down and bottom out. We then hired inexperienced management (Lafontaine) and an ‘in over his head’/overly aggressive GM (Murray) to led us into and out of a complete tear down. We needed experience or at the very least someone much more methodical. Now we hired the plodding methodical slow builder to set things right.