Jason Botterill Discussion 3

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sabrebuild

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Apr 21, 2014
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Pittsburgh
I'm going to waste my own time by spelling this out again. Murray came in with a horde of extra assets...and wasted most of them in order to build half a roster with no quality future depth. Botterill came in after the extra assets were gone. Point wise, the team was not going to get any better. Lehner was still going to have personal problems, O'Reilly was still going to lose his motivation, and Kane was still going to be a headache off the ice and not re-sign. There was nothing Murray could do to make that team better if he stayed, and he probably makes it worse with more big-swing trades.

Take a look at this list of Murray's moves -Murray's drafts and trades

The extra picks he had from the Vanek trade (and others), and from the Miller trade he did himself, were wasted in future trades.

For example, let's look at #1 on the list, the last "tear down" trade and what he did with it after cutting through all the turnover of assets that followed...

Miller, Ott, 2015 3rd, 2016 3rd, Pysyk, 2016 2nd, 2016 3rd,

for (after sifting through the trades of Halak, Neuvirth, Stewart, and picks)

1st used in the Kane/Bogo trade, Chad Johnson, Karabacek, and Asplund.

That's pathetic. That's pathetic, and that entire chain of downward trades is not even in the top three of his worst, future depth gutting moves. There's still the trades for Fasching/Des (lost McNabb and two 2nds), Kane/Bogo (lost a 2015 1st and a slew of lesser assets), and Lehner/Legwand (another 2015 1st). I'll just stick this link here as a reminder for those who forget...

Sabres still paying for the sins of Tim Murray

TLDR; But an open question for all you Botts truthers, how many years and how little success will it take for you to stop the insane arguments and agree he failed. 2 more years? 4?

Honestly, for a group of opinions that uniformly say get over the trade that shall not be named, its pathetic to constantly read, but but but Murray ruined everything.


Ya I read that article before, shockingly the author was a big proponent of the O'Reilly trade to the blues.

You are out to lunch on this and have been since the moment the O'Reilly trade happened.

Murray did come in with a horde of assets. And he had an actual huge mess to fix, unlike Botts.

Maybe you forget what was here during the tank.

Maybe we should remember that this teams only decent players at the tank were girgs, ennis, Risto and Moulson.

Maybe we should live in reality were the return for Miller with no term and Ott with no term was perfectly fine.

I mean, do you really think that Miller, Ott, pysyk and a few 3rd round picks should return more than 2 full years of Kane on a good cap and Bogo and a good prospect like Asplund?

You seem to have this myopic view point that any future trades that Murray made were utter wastes, but the future trades that Botts makes are smart trades that give all these prospects time to grow.

Wtf are you talking about? Most of their bad cap the last two years have been Botterill pickups. Who sees a bad contract in moulson, Bogo and Okposo and says hey let me add more bad contracts, give away actual value for the bad deals and profit. They don't have some core of youngsters that Botts has drafted or traded for to even take advantage of this lunatic theory that didn't happen.

You defend this guy like he is family, but in reality, in three off seasons, the only definitive talent upgrade that has happened is lucking into drafting Dahlin.

Kane moved out, replaced by Skinner
O'Reilly out for poop/ arguably a year later Marjo is a junk lite version.

And zero other offensive improvements. No physicality brought in to replace trades and expansion.

Again, tell everyone all you want about this epic trash fire that had to be fixed.

But the facts are still the same. He had all of his future picks. He had solid prospects to trade or deal. He had only two truly bad contracts when he came in and had cap space to improve.

He had two star centers either in their prime or entering it, he had two star wingers and one defender who had a lot of league value.

I get it, you think Murray did it all wrong, and Bott's would have done better with a slow patient approach.

Maybe he would have. But that doesn't matter because that isn't how it went. And while I disliked a lot of Murray's moves, its revisionist history at its finest to say he ruined the team.

The team had 1 person who was screwed up, Lehner. O'Reilly didn't lose his motivation, his stats were similar every year and he put in more effort than anyone on that last place team. Who knows if Kane would resign or not. Botts never indicated he offered and they got back luckily a first for him anyway. Maybe not improving the team's roster in year one was not a good idea...

Just for real facts again, Botts created a last place team in his first year. Nobody is asking how could he not create a playoff team with Murray's ruinous leftovers, it's why can't they just improve slightly. Year two, they get a free 40 point defender, growth from Sam and Jack and they still can't get to the Murray base of success in the standings.

Maybe they will figure it out this year.

But you might want to hold off the told you so's in gameday threads till they actually prove something.
 

Fezzy126

Rebuilding...
May 10, 2017
8,569
11,286
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that both Murray and Botterill were/are below average NHL GMs.

Hopefully the third time is the charm when the Pegula's hire a GM for the Sabres.

I have no idea how to judge a gm other than by using bottom line results. So using only that criteria, at this point both are inadequate.

But I will say there's a reason Vesey was targeted by both Murray and Botts, and it very likely has nothing to do with either GM's opinion of the player. It's also why we've had trouble self-scouting over the past 4 seasons, a troubling trend that continues to this day (Botts continues to say as much in his radio interviews). Despite the large turnover of the department 2 years ago, there are still quite a few holdovers in important roles.

Assistant General Manager/Rochester Americans General Manager Randy Sexton
Assistant General Manager Steve Greeley
Vice President of Hockey Administration Mark Jakubowski
Director of Amateur Scouting Ryan Jankowski
Assistant Director of Amateur Scouting Jeff Crisp - here since 2016
Head of Collegiate Scouting Jerry Forton - here since 2013
Amateur Scout Kevin Devine - here since 1998
Amateur Scout Austin Dunne - here since 2011
Pro Scout Graham Beamish - here since 2014
Pro Scout John Van Boxmeer - here since 2014


Until they start getting the right people in the right roles at every level of the organization, player evaluation will continue to be problematic. At least on this side of the pond, what they've done in northern Europe has been pretty awesome.
 

jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,015
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I still think an enormous issue is that the next GM probably wont deliver the moves everyone thinks Botts has just been ignoring.

Have a look at Doug Armstrong. STL won a cup right, so that means he makes good trades, right? Well aside from the O'Reilly one, its not that impressive.
History of hockey trades by general manager Doug Armstrong - NHL Trade Tracker

What about Calgary who finished 2nd in points last year? Getting Lindholm and Hanifin is nice, but they also gave up a good amount. Outside of that, pretty boring. History of hockey trades by general manager Brad Treliving - NHL Trade Tracker

How about Steve Y, the genius that built the powerhouse TBL? Still pretty ordinary. History of hockey trades by general manager Steve Yzerman - NHL Trade Tracker

My point is, go to any GM's trade history and you'll see a lot of misses. Very few, if any, are hitting on every move they make. You will see a Vesey, Sheary, types of trades on every page. History of hockey trades by general manager - NHL Trade Tracker

That doesn't excuse Botterill from his mistakes, but this idea that some GM we happen to hire is going to make all the right moves is just as silly as thinking Botterill has been perfect.
 

Panthaz89

Buffalo Sabres, Carolina Panthers fan
Dec 24, 2016
13,190
5,710
Buffalo,NY
When is the last time we had an old vet that actually did make a major impact on the team....sadly the best I remember this decade is Gionta other than that all we've had are guys that are cap dumps and really are making 2-5x the amount that they should be.
 
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Fjordy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
15,223
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I still think an enormous issue is that the next GM probably wont deliver the moves everyone thinks Botts has just been ignoring.

Have a look at Doug Armstrong. STL won a cup right, so that means he makes good trades, right? Well aside from the O'Reilly one, its not that impressive.
History of hockey trades by general manager Doug Armstrong - NHL Trade Tracker

What about Calgary who finished 2nd in points last year? Getting Lindholm and Hanifin is nice, but they also gave up a good amount. Outside of that, pretty boring. History of hockey trades by general manager Brad Treliving - NHL Trade Tracker

How about Steve Y, the genius that built the powerhouse TBL? Still pretty ordinary. History of hockey trades by general manager Steve Yzerman - NHL Trade Tracker

My point is, go to any GM's trade history and you'll see a lot of misses. Very few, if any, are hitting on every move they make. You will see a Vesey, Sheary, types of trades on every page. History of hockey trades by general manager - NHL Trade Tracker

That doesn't excuse Botterill from his mistakes, but this idea that some GM we happen to hire is going to make all the right moves is just as silly as thinking Botterill has been perfect.
It’s clear that there is no perfect GM, but I’m not sure that Botterill is what this team needs, at least for now. He had some good deals and signing, there were bad ones, but there were key mistakes of a huge scale: Housley, trade ROR, unfinished the summer campaign trades.
 

Der Jaeger

Generational EBUG
Feb 14, 2009
17,586
13,909
Cair Paravel
Sigh.... I’m tired of this argument.

I am announcing my candidacy for the Sabres GM. Beyond me making better choices, I’m eliminating unneeded threads complaining about past GMs.

Vote me in.
 
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joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
78,462
39,914
Hamburg,NY
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that both Murray and Botterill were/are below average NHL GMs.

Hopefully the third time is the charm when the Pegula's hire a GM for the Sabres.

Or maybe wait to see how this season plays out.

We have 10 NHL caliber dmen (9 are currently healthy); Dahlin, Montour, Risto, McCabe, Scandella, Joker, Miller, Pilut, Bogo and Gilmour

Botts is the reason we have this glut of dmen since he is directly responsible for acquiring 6 of them. Luck got us one (Dahlin). Two are Regier’s (Risto/McCabe) and one is from Murray (Bogo).


He did a good job acquiring these dman and compiling this kind of depth. But it’s all for naught if he doesn’t use it help up front. He has made mistakes for sure but now he has the coach he originally wanted and assets to improve the team up front. He needs to act. If he doesn’t, then I agree with you that he’s a below average GM. This is the first season I would put 100% on Botts if it goes south.
 
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jc17

Registered User
Jun 14, 2013
11,015
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It’s clear that there is no perfect GM, but I’m not sure that Botterill is what this team needs, at least for now. He had some good deals and signing, there were bad ones, but there were key mistakes of a huge scale: Housley, trade ROR, unfinished the summer campaign trades.
Agreed regarding ROR. I still think that wasn't 100% his call, but like I've said before, no excuses. Housley didn't work out, but this is something that I definitely am not as quick to criticize Botterill for. I think hiring a coach is a process no one has figured out. We see the same re-treads jump from team to team with varying success. We see young guys get chances with varying success. Its just not a great formula.
 

Fjordy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
15,223
8,183
Agreed regarding ROR. I still think that wasn't 100% his call, but like I've said before, no excuses. Housley didn't work out, but this is something that I definitely am not as quick to criticize Botterill for. I think hiring a coach is a process no one has figured out. We see the same re-treads jump from team to team with varying success. We see young guys get chances with varying success. Its just not a great formula.
No, I understand, maybe someone likes Botterill it as a GM, but I probably don’t, for me this season will be decisive for his work. He already hired a second coach, for some reason left so many defenders and took some strange steps, I liked some of the summer deals, but for some reason he decided to stop on this. Personally, it was obvious to me in the summer that we had a weak attack, he is holds Sobotka, for some reason traded for Vesey. Therefore, I expect from him some action in the next 1-2 weeks.
 

Fjordy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
15,223
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What if no other GM is offering up a legit top 6 forward for a D that Botts is willing to trade?
If it’s Bogosian or Sсandella, then of course won’t offer it, but we have Risto and Miller, maybe McCabe, add picks and prospects here, especially since Botts himself created such a situation when we have so many defenders and he just has to trade.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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TLDR; But an open question for all you Botts truthers, how many years and how little success will it take for you to stop the insane arguments and agree he failed. 2 more years? 4?

Honestly, for a group of opinions that uniformly say get over the trade that shall not be named, its pathetic to constantly read, but but but Murray ruined everything.


Ya I read that article before, shockingly the author was a big proponent of the O'Reilly trade to the blues.

You are out to lunch on this and have been since the moment the O'Reilly trade happened.

Murray did come in with a horde of assets. And he had an actual huge mess to fix, unlike Botts.

Maybe you forget what was here during the tank.

Maybe we should remember that this teams only decent players at the tank were girgs, ennis, Risto and Moulson.

Maybe we should live in reality were the return for Miller with no term and Ott with no term was perfectly fine.

I mean, do you really think that Miller, Ott, pysyk and a few 3rd round picks should return more than 2 full years of Kane on a good cap and Bogo and a good prospect like Asplund?

You seem to have this myopic view point that any future trades that Murray made were utter wastes, but the future trades that Botts makes are smart trades that give all these prospects time to grow.

Wtf are you talking about? Most of their bad cap the last two years have been Botterill pickups. Who sees a bad contract in moulson, Bogo and Okposo and says hey let me add more bad contracts, give away actual value for the bad deals and profit. They don't have some core of youngsters that Botts has drafted or traded for to even take advantage of this lunatic theory that didn't happen.

You defend this guy like he is family, but in reality, in three off seasons, the only definitive talent upgrade that has happened is lucking into drafting Dahlin.

Kane moved out, replaced by Skinner
O'Reilly out for poop/ arguably a year later Marjo is a junk lite version.

And zero other offensive improvements. No physicality brought in to replace trades and expansion.

Again, tell everyone all you want about this epic trash fire that had to be fixed.

But the facts are still the same. He had all of his future picks. He had solid prospects to trade or deal. He had only two truly bad contracts when he came in and had cap space to improve.

He had two star centers either in their prime or entering it, he had two star wingers and one defender who had a lot of league value.

I get it, you think Murray did it all wrong, and Bott's would have done better with a slow patient approach.

Maybe he would have. But that doesn't matter because that isn't how it went. And while I disliked a lot of Murray's moves, its revisionist history at its finest to say he ruined the team.

The team had 1 person who was screwed up, Lehner. O'Reilly didn't lose his motivation, his stats were similar every year and he put in more effort than anyone on that last place team. Who knows if Kane would resign or not. Botts never indicated he offered and they got back luckily a first for him anyway. Maybe not improving the team's roster in year one was not a good idea...

Just for real facts again, Botts created a last place team in his first year. Nobody is asking how could he not create a playoff team with Murray's ruinous leftovers, it's why can't they just improve slightly. Year two, they get a free 40 point defender, growth from Sam and Jack and they still can't get to the Murray base of success in the standings.

Maybe they will figure it out this year.

But you might want to hold off the told you so's in gameday threads till they actually prove something.

I'm reading this in full now and it seems that the "TLDR" is in regard to your own post? Anyway...

- I think the franchise is in such bad shape, this downfall starting BEFORE Murray, that no GM should be expected to get this club competitive with healthy depth and a good farm team for another year or so. Bubble team at best this season, and next summer's moves depends on how much cap goes to RFAs.

- Never said Murray ruined everything, it was bad before him, he had a chance to make a big dent with the 2015 draft and wasted it.

- Just because that reporter defended the ROR trade (I don't even know) doesn't mean I do. I HATED the trade, but I realized there were reasons why Botterill was stuck. It's all in that trade thread and I'm NOT re-hashing it here.

- You're misunderstanding what I posted about the Miller/Ott trade. I listed the 1st rd pick that was used in the Kane trade, but a slew of other assets went into that trade beyond "Pysyk and a couple 3rds". I didn't want to go down the rat hole parsing the rest of it out...we all know the details of that trade and how bad it was.

- Murray's trades were to "accelerate the re-build" by overpaying in trade for players that were supposed to carry the team. Some of Botterill's trades were cheaper, and bought time while re-stocking prospects, with players that have shorter contracts just to revamp the vibe in the lockerr room and get better depth. I fully admit that Berglund was a bad luck/good luck scenario because I didn't want him on the roster for two years let alone four.

- I don't care about Botterill at all, let alone like he's family. I defend him as the GM that has a tall order to get this franchise on the right track. I'm actually more negative about the state of the franchise than most here, apparently. It seems many think just 1-2 off-seasons can get things right with aggressive trades, while I think the team has been a mess for far too long for the fix to be that easy.

- I don't know what you mean about told-you-so's, because I never expected this team to be better than a bubble team, only that this roster is not a bottom of the heap trash pile that is ALL because of Botterill. We're going to disagree, so you can save your "WTF"s and so on. I don't mind detailing my opinions, but not ad nauseum with the same poster on and on.
 

Buffalo Norsemen

Registered User
Mar 7, 2019
3,114
1,519
Sportsplex
His garbage Sheary, Vesey, Sobotka pickups have done NOTHING to help the bottom of the Sabres roster. And it is showing through big time now.

His lack of the center position help on the big club and organizationally is negligent.

...and his specialty supposedly was contacts and cap. Th eteam is still in salary cap jail with Sam and Montour coming up!

3 wasted years of Jack, shameful!
 
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BananaSquad

Registered User
Jun 13, 2013
4,777
1,699
Niagara
His garbage Sheary, Vesey, Sobotka pickups have done NOTHING to help the bottom of the Sabres roster. And it is showing through big time now and his team is still in salary cap jail!! lol

3 wasted years of Jack, shameful!
Didn’t realize this year already counted as wasted.... seasons already over boys, stop watching.
 

21

Peter The Great
Aug 17, 2005
4,389
1,199
Sweden
Moving O'Reilly and Alex Nylander was questionable moves for sure but difficult for us judging. Perhaps they didn't like it in Buffalo, I have no idea about their attitudes. Having the right attitude is extremely important and something I highly highly. On paper moving a huge talent like Alex Nylander early is simply hmmmm "risky" (it may come back biting you) and O'Reilly is such a good hardworking player, a role model out there.

Not sure if Jason Botterill is pushed or having huge pressure on his shoulders from fans and the owners. Almost giving me the impression he wants to win now, a bit inpatient? When rebuilding it may be hmmm dangerous having a GM like that.
 
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