Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Tatanka]

Building a winner costs cap. You can't just wave it away, while building said winner.

On Dahlin, by this pace you mean a sophomore year where he is "slumping" and on pace for 58 points... Let's assume he cleans things up and finishes the year with 60 points and solid defense. Do you really want to wait out that contract, for him to "prove" it in year 3.

I'm all for opinions, but the cap doesn't much care about opinions. Since it has been introduced, cup teams are generally dominated by multiple players outperforming their contracts.

You pay for performance. If Dahlin puts up 60 and the team doesn’t win then perhaps he is not as valuable, even scoring 60, as some might think. This idea that we have to pay for players who have yet to prove they can win is part of the problem. Yes it would be great to get a bargain, but we haven’t been able to get one yet sans Jack potentially. We perceive players to be worth more than they are. Let someone prove they are worth the money. But 5he standard isn’t individual stats it is contributing to winning.

 

[sabrebuild]

You pay for performance. If Dahlin puts up 60 and the team doesn’t win then perhaps he is not as valuable, even scoring 60, as some might think. This idea that we have to pay for players who have yet to prove they can win is part of the problem. Yes it would be great to get a bargain, but we haven’t been able to get one yet sans Jack potentially. We perceive players to be worth more than they are. Let someone prove they are worth the money. But 5he standard isn’t individual stats it is contributing to winning.

Precap i would agree with this. In a cap world this is pennywise and pound foolish, and just not how good teams operate.

Your logic would deprive Colorado of one of the best contracts in the league.

How did that logic work for us with Vanek? Or Campbell?

I get the real world sentiment you are projecting, but its just not an effective way to win in the nhl. Our franchise is a perfect model for that type of poor cap management for the last 14 years.

And you'll find that most teams that have waited to pay "winning" players, then find themselves less competitive for years after until the cap rises, eg Chicago, Pit.

One would think that the Oreilly trade might have dispelled the winners vs losers point of view.

 

[Tatanka]

Precap i would agree with this. In a cap world this is pennywise and pound foolish, and just not how good teams operate.

Your logic would deprive Colorado of one of the best contracts in the league.

How did that logic work for us with Vanek? Or Campbell?

I get the real world sentiment you are projecting, but its just not an effective way to win in the nhl. Our franchise is a perfect model for that type of poor cap management for the last 14 years.

And you'll find that most teams that have waited to pay "winning" players, then find themselves less competitive for years after until the cap rises, eg Chicago, Pit.

One would think that the Oreilly trade might have dispelled the winners vs losers point of view.

But Chi and Pit have the cups to show for it. I’ll take that bargains.

 

[jd1970]

It's hilarity at it's finest when almost every game people ***** about how soft this team is and how no one steps up. That's on the GM. The players are who they've always been. It's on the GM to bring in guys with an edge if you don't want a soft team

Where's the hilarity?
I said the Sabres are soft, soft and Botteril needs to be out of here before January.

 

[Steddy33]

Where's the hilarity?
I said the Sabres are soft, soft and Botteril needs to be out of here before January.

The hilarity is all the defense of Botterill that goes on, on this board. At this point there is no defense for him.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The hilarity is all the defense of Botterill that goes on, on this board. At this point there is no defense for him.

No snark here, but the hilarity to me is that some posters think this team should be in some really good position, somehow, in the time since Botterill was hired. It's not really a defense of Botterill...I truly wonder what some posters think they could have done if all their ideas materialized. The scouting, drafting, developing, and culture were/are all lacking to some extent.

Using the 2015 draft to it's fullest advantage would have made a huge dent, but instead we lost futures when we needed them the most. As others (and me) have said the problems go on prior to Murray's tenure. It's nowhere near all his fault, but he was in the best position to change things up and he made things worse.

I don't know how ANY GM comes in to the scenario Botterill was handed, and comes away with a playoff team with a strong pipeline that can sustain any success. Again, it was a crappy farm team with bad coaching, and relatively poor talent coming through previous drafts. The D-corps was A JOKE, and repeatedly ignored or made worse for several years. Whether from bad attitudes or a beaten down morale, the locker room was a mess. To top it off, no current HCs worth a damn wanted to take the job.

So when I "defend Botterill", I'm really more astonished that more people don't fully realize what a mess this franchise was in, and is still partially today. It's a tough row to hoe, and the best route IMO is to revamp coaching, mentality, and culture between Cincy, Rochester, and Buffalo...then draft well and mine the UDFA scene, and slowly increase the overall talent level throughout the entire organization. That's a fix that takes years.

 

[DatGuy]

No snark here, but the hilarity to me is that some posters think this team should be in some really good position, somehow, in the time since Botterill was hired. It's not really a defense of Botterill...I truly wonder what some posters think they could have done if all their ideas materialized. The scouting, drafting, developing, and culture were/are all lacking to some extent.

Using the 2015 draft to it's fullest advantage would have made a huge dent, but instead we lost futures when we needed them the most. As others (and me) have said the problems go on prior to Murray's tenure. It's nowhere near all his fault, but he was in the best position to change things up and he made things worse.

I don't know how ANY GM comes in to the scenario Botterill was handed, and comes away with a playoff team with a strong pipeline that can sustain any success. Again, it was a crappy farm team with bad coaching, and relatively poor talent coming through previous drafts. The D-corps was A JOKE, and repeatedly ignored or made worse for several years. Whether from bad attitudes or a beaten down morale, the locker room was a mess. To top it off, no current HCs worth a damn wanted to take the job.

So when I "defend Botterill", I'm really more astonished that more people don't fully realize what a mess this franchise was in, and is still partially today. It's a tough row to hoe, and the best route IMO is to revamp coaching, mentality, and culture between Cincy, Rochester, and Buffalo...then draft well and mine the UDFA scene, and slowly increase the overall talent level throughout the entire organization. That's a fix that takes years.

Fans are going to be Fans.

 

[joshjull]

No snark here, but the hilarity to me is that some posters think this team should be in some really good position, somehow, in the time since Botterill was hired. It's not really a defense of Botterill...I truly wonder what some posters think they could have done if all their ideas materialized. The scouting, drafting, developing, and culture were/are all lacking to some extent.

Using the 2015 draft to it's fullest advantage would have made a huge dent, but instead we lost futures when we needed them the most. As others (and me) have said the problems go on prior to Murray's tenure. It's nowhere near all his fault, but he was in the best position to change things up and he made things worse.

I don't know how ANY GM comes in to the scenario Botterill was handed, and comes away with a playoff team with a strong pipeline that can sustain any success. Again, it was a crappy farm team with bad coaching, and relatively poor talent coming through previous drafts. The D-corps was A JOKE, and repeatedly ignored or made worse for several years. Whether from bad attitudes or a beaten down morale, the locker room was a mess. To top it off, no current HCs worth a damn wanted to take the job.

So when I "defend Botterill", I'm really more astonished that more people don't fully realize what a mess this franchise was in, and is still partially today. It's a tough row to hoe, and the best route IMO is to revamp coaching, mentality, and culture between Cincy, Rochester, and Buffalo...then draft well and mine the UDFA scene, and slowly increase the overall talent level throughout the entire organization. That's a fix that takes years.

I don’t got why some posters think we were in good shape when Murray was canned. Is it to go after Botts more? Botts can very easily be criticized without creating a fiction about where we were when he took over.

 

[sabrebuild]

But Chi and Pit have the cups to show for it. I’ll take that bargains.

.... Can't argue with that

 

[Steddy33]

No snark here, but the hilarity to me is that some posters think this team should be in some really good position, somehow, in the time since Botterill was hired. It's not really a defense of Botterill...I truly wonder what some posters think they could have done if all their ideas materialized. The scouting, drafting, developing, and culture were/are all lacking to some extent.

Using the 2015 draft to it's fullest advantage would have made a huge dent, but instead we lost futures when we needed them the most. As others (and me) have said the problems go on prior to Murray's tenure. It's nowhere near all his fault, but he was in the best position to change things up and he made things worse.

I don't know how ANY GM comes in to the scenario Botterill was handed, and comes away with a playoff team with a strong pipeline that can sustain any success. Again, it was a crappy farm team with bad coaching, and relatively poor talent coming through previous drafts. The D-corps was A JOKE, and repeatedly ignored or made worse for several years. Whether from bad attitudes or a beaten down morale, the locker room was a mess. To top it off, no current HCs worth a damn wanted to take the job.

So when I "defend Botterill", I'm really more astonished that more people don't fully realize what a mess this franchise was in, and is still partially today. It's a tough row to hoe, and the best route IMO is to revamp coaching, mentality, and culture between Cincy, Rochester, and Buffalo...then draft well and mine the UDFA scene, and slowly increase the overall talent level throughout the entire organization. That's a fix that takes years.

How many excuses does this team and this GM get? Murray's teams actually had higher point totals you realize that right?. But somehow Botterill has managed to have Skinner and Dahlin handed to him and still can't make the moves this team needs. Screw Murray. He f***ed up. But if you think Botterill has done something positive for this team well then we are going have to agree to disagree

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

How many excuses does this team and this GM get? Murray's teams actually had higher point totals you realize that right?. But somehow Botterill has managed to have Skinner and Dahlin handed to him and still can't make the moves this team needs. Screw Murray. He ****ed up. But if you think Botterill has done something positive for this team well then we are going have to agree to disagree

I'm not giving the team excuses. I'm explaining why the job of making this franchise into a sustainable competitive playoff team is harder than most think. Point totals didn't examine why it's dumb to make a big trade for a scoring winger that will not re-sign before the re-build is done (or an injury prone Dman). Point totals don't explain how the prospect pool was nearly dried up, or how the culture was no good. If your only response is "excuses!", you're just not interested in thinking about my answer.

 

[sabremike]

This is why I'm tired of the "It's all Murray's fault" attempts to absolve Botts of any responsibility for the sad state we find ourselves in:

2008–09 New York Islanders season - Wikipedia

This is the roster of the 08-09 Islanders that finished dead last and won Captain Pajamas. If you look at it you will notice it's not much better than the 14-15 Sabres that was intentionally assembled to be terrible. The roster Botts inherited was ridiculously better than this one. The Isles GM was Garth Snow, universally considered among the worst GM's of all times and who kept his job because Wang considered him like a son. The team also had no choice but to be a cap floor team as a result of the worst lease in all of pro sports that made not losing a fortune impossible. With those conditions it took 3 non playoff seasons before qualifying in 2013. We are incredibly likely to miss the playoffs under Botts for the 3rd time with a very slight improvement and everyone counting on everything to just magically come together in 20-21 despite no indication that will happen. A 78 point season got Murray and Abysmal shown the door (and make no mistake: they both deserved it) and if that's around where we stand on April 4th a change needs to be made.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Bott's you have to answer for Sonny, I mean Vesey.

 

[valet]

How many excuses does this team and this GM get? Murray's teams actually had higher point totals you realize that right?. But somehow Botterill has managed to have Skinner and Dahlin handed to him and still can't make the moves this team needs. Screw Murray. He ****ed up. But if you think Botterill has done something positive for this team well then we are going have to agree to disagree

what moves would you have made then, to provide a stable foundation for multiple years of success? it's easy to criticize without making any real suggestions at how the team could be 'better' (we're 9-6-2, just fyi). so, let's hear your plan

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

This is why I'm tired of the "It's all Murray's fault" attempts to absolve Botts of any responsibility for the sad state we find ourselves in:

2008–09 New York Islanders season - Wikipedia

This is the roster of the 08-09 Islanders that finished dead last and won Captain Pajamas. If you look at it you will notice it's not much better than the 14-15 Sabres that was intentionally assembled to be terrible. The roster Botts inherited was ridiculously better than this one. The Isles GM was Garth Snow, universally considered among the worst GM's of all times and who kept his job because Wang considered him like a son. The team also had no choice but to be a cap floor team as a result of the worst lease in all of pro sports that made not losing a fortune impossible. With those conditions it took 3 non playoff seasons before qualifying in 2013. We are incredibly likely to miss the playoffs under Botts for the 3rd time with a very slight improvement and everyone counting on everything to just magically come together in 20-21 despite no indication that will happen. A 78 point season got Murray and Abysmal shown the door (and make no mistake: they both deserved it) and if that's around where we stand on April 4th a change needs to be made.

First off, I specifically stated it's not all Murray's fault. Second, Murray was not fired for a 78 pt season. He was fired for being very unprofessional, allowing a crappy culture to simmer with Kane's off-ice drama, Lehner's personal problems unattended to, O'Reilly's morale. He was constantly leaking trade talks to media, to the point where he angered other GMs, which contributed to his last TDL failing to move modest but obvious trade pieces. Nobody wanted to deal with him. A 78 pt season was way down list compared to that problem.

 

[sabremike]

First off, I specifically stated it's not all Murray's fault. Second, Murray was not fired for a 78 pt season. He was fired for being very unprofessional, allowing a crappy culture to simmer with Kane's off-ice drama, Lehner's personal problems unattended to, O'Reilly's morale. He was constantly leaking trade talks to media, to the point where he angered other GMs, which contributed to his last TDL failing to move modest but obvious trade pieces. Nobody wanted to deal with him. A 78 pt season was way down list compared to that problem.

He was told by ownership to sack Abysmal, and when he refused he was sacked as well. If he had complied with what ownership requested he wouldn't have been fired. He did a real bad job but at some point using him as a crutch for neverending failure is ridiculous.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Bott's in the Regier bunker sweatin bullets this week....wait, what was that sound ? Was that the black widow ?

 

[Steddy33]

what moves would you have made then, to provide a stable foundation for multiple years of success? it's easy to criticize without making any real suggestions at how the team could be 'better' (we're 9-6-2, just fyi). so, let's hear your plan

Dude this shit has been rehashed 100 million times. Not making an awful trade of your best player would be a start. Trading for a center (Haula, Soderberg) this offseason to replace the center he lost in his awful trade would've been a step in the right direction. Not bringing in Boat anchors like Vesey, Sobotka, Sheary(to a lesser extent) would be good. Lets not act like there wasn't better options than Vesey(Burakovsky). There is always moves to be made but you have to able to evaluate talent better than he has done so far. Sending Mittlestadt and Thompson down last season. Not sitting on his hands all of December and January as this team crumbled last season. The list goes on and on. It's his job. He hasn't done it

 

[valet]

Dude this **** has been rehashed 100 million times. Not making an awful trade of your best player would be a start. Trading for a center (Haula, Soderberg) this offseason to replace the center he lost in his awful trade would've been a step in the right direction. Not bringing in Boat anchors like Vesey, Sobotka, Sheary(to a lesser extent) would be good. Lets not act like there wasn't better options than Vesey(Burakovsky). There is always moves to be made but you have to able to evaluate talent better than he has done so far. Sending Mittlestadt and Thompson down last season. Not sitting on his hands all of December and January as this team crumbled last season. The list goes on and on. It's his job. He hasn't done it

sure, but you're ignoring the most important part of my question, which is how you do all of these things without compromising long-term success

would you prefer to have our prospect pool and future assets depleted completely to improve a borderline playoff team, or have a stable farm that consistently produces players over the course of 5, 6, 7, 8 years?

it's that same short-sighted mentality that got us into this mess, what makes you think that the same tactics would get us out? don't you see the obvious circular logic you're using?

win now doesn't work with borderline average teams. heck, for the most part it doesn't even work with contenders. every single team playing at a high level over a sustained period of time was built through the draft, I don't know how some people can ignore the obvious fact of it

 

[Steddy33]

sure, but you're ignoring the most important part of my question, which is how you do all of these things without compromising long-term success

would you prefer to have our prospect pool and future assets depleted completely to improve a borderline playoff team, or have a stable farm that consistently produces players over the course of 5, 6, 7, 8 years?

it's that same short-sighted mentality that got us into this mess, what makes you think that the same tactics would get us out? don't you see the obvious circular logic you're using?

win now doesn't work with borderline average teams. heck, for the most part it doesn't even work with contenders.

None of the players I mentioned went for crazy prices.

Soderberg- Kevin Connauton and a 3rd round pick

Haula - Fredrick Roy and 3rd

Burakovsky- 2nd and 3rd

Burakovsky was the biggest risk and cost. If you think that's compromising the future we are gonna have to disagree

 

[jc17]

Part of my "defense" botterill is that I'm not confident another GM would have definitely done better.

The ROR trade was awful, I still think ownership was involved, but no excuses 1 pretty bad move.

Then beyond that, some good, some bad. Skinner, Johansson, pilut, montour, Miller? Good. Vesey, the whole bealieau thing, bad. Im probably forgetting something. Sheary meh.

As far as not getting a 2C and things like that I think its unfair to put total blame on the gm. Those are hypotheticals that might have not been realistic options. Why didn't botts trade for/ sign xyz? Maybe they weren't available, maybe they didn't want to come, etc. It doesn't mean he gets a complete pass either.

You can hold inaction against a gm but you can't pretend that the two options are sit on hands or get a great player for a good price.

 

[valet]

None of the players I mentioned went for crazy prices.

Soderberg- Kevin Connauton and a 3rd round pick

Haula - Fredrick Roy and 3rd

Burakovsky- 2nd and 3rd

Burakovsky was the biggest risk and cost. If you think that's compromising the future we are gonna have to disagree

and they all went to different teams. in what world do you think we manage to pull off trades for all of them? and in a trade market with competing interests? don't you see how unrealistic and unsustainable that kind of management style is?

that's 3rd rounders, a 2nd rounder, a good prospect, and a roster player, all for 3 guys that their teams saw as expendable... where do we get the assets to make these trades? and how do we keep the farm alive?

the answer is simple, we don't. you can't have your cake and eat it too

 

[OkimLom]

sure, but you're ignoring the most important part of my question, which is how you do all of these things without compromising long-term success

would you prefer to have our prospect pool and future assets depleted completely to improve a borderline playoff team, or have a stable farm that consistently produces players over the course of 5, 6, 7, 8 years?

it's that same short-sighted mentality that got us into this mess, what makes you think that the same tactics would get us out? don't you see the obvious circular logic you're using?

win now doesn't work with borderline average teams. heck, for the most part it doesn't even work with contenders.

everything that probably should’ve been done to stabilize the franchise, should’ve been done years ago when he took over. His first year here, he should’ve had a plan of the type of players he wanted his team to have. Next, find a veteran head coach. You don’t hire a guy to teach your young players for his first hire as head coach, you need to see results of him performing the job to evaluate him. This may sound foreign thinking, but you hire a guy that has shown he can handle the task you need done. You hire a Housley type when your team is trying to get over the hump of getting past the 2nd round in the playoffs. You also don’t just sign short term players to fill roles for one year, because then you are looking to replace them again when you have more glaring needs to fix.

Even if you need time to see if the current players COULD work out, it shouldn’t take someone that is competent at player evaluation a full year to see if they work. The work to reshape the team on the bottom 6 and in the prospect pool should’ve been started that year. I also don’t just decide to not re-sign prospects, I make every effort to use them as trade assets.

2nd year, you continue to cycle out players that don’t fit into your plan. You keep ROR on the roster until you have a proven player ready to fill that spot. Whether that is in house or via free agency. If you feel you need to get rid of a guy on the team, you don’t set restrictions to do so, this will help maximize your return.

By the 3rd year you should have your bottom if not middle 6 of forwards at least structured for the team you want for the future. You should also be working at a the same time at fixing the defense to work with your forwards.

During all this time, you should have your prospects developing in their respective leagues. There shouldn’t be any rush whatsoever to have them in the lineup. Not only will it help you with contracts when vets may become too expensive to keep, but you’re not putting too much pressure on the guys for any role on the team. You just insert them in the lineup.

 

[valet]

everything that probably should’ve been done to stabilize the franchise, should’ve been done years ago when he took over. His first year here, he should’ve had a plan of the type of players he wanted his team to have. Next, find a veteran head coach. You don’t hire a guy to teach your young players for his first hire as head coach, you need to see results of him performing the job to evaluate him. This may sound foreign thinking, but you hire a guy that has shown he can handle the task you need done. You hire a Housley type when your team is trying to get over the hump of getting past the 2nd round in the playoffs. You also don’t just sign short term players to fill roles for one year, because then you are looking to replace them again when you have more glaring needs to fix.

Even if you need time to see if the current players COULD work out, it shouldn’t take someone that is competent at player evaluation a full year to see if they work. The work to reshape the team on the bottom 6 and in the prospect pool should’ve been started that year. I also don’t just decide to not re-sign prospects, I make every effort to use them as trade assets.

2nd year, you continue to cycle out players that don’t fit into your plan. You keep ROR on the roster until you have a proven player ready to fill that spot. Whether that is in house or via free agency. If you feel you need to get rid of a guy on the team, you don’t set restrictions to do so, this will help maximize your return.

By the 3rd year you should have your bottom if not middle 6 of forwards at least structured for the team you want for the future. You should also be working at a the same time at fixing the defense to work with your forwards.

During all this time, you should have your prospects developing in their respective leagues. There shouldn’t be any rush whatsoever to have them in the lineup. Not only will it help you with contracts when vets may become too expensive to keep, but you’re not putting too much pressure on the guys for any role on the team. You just insert them in the lineup.

save the ror trade/housley, which I think we all can agree weren't necessarily optimal moves, this is exactly what botteril has done, not to mention the fact that he had almost ZERO assets or prospects to work with in comparison to successful organizations around the league.

I'm not sure what you mean by having the middle 6 'structured'. you either have players that can play those roles, or you don't. and it's not like they're easy to acquire... it takes assets and/or spending irresponsibly in betting wars during FA.

botteril has made a lot of good moves, more good than bad, while rebuilding the framework of the organization on all levels. I'm not against criticism of the clunkers, but I also don't think you can make blanket statements citing 1 or 2 roster moves, which is what people are doing to justify their bias that has been accrued over a very short period of poor results this year (5 games). no one was complaining when we were winning a bunch of games? so what's different now?

and alas, we still have a winning record, even amidst the slump. he's obviously improved the state of the team....

 

[K8fool]

No snark here, but the hilarity to me is that some posters think this team should be in some really good position, somehow, in the time since Botterill was hired. It's not really a defense of Botterill...I truly wonder what some posters think they could have done if all their ideas materialized. The scouting, drafting, developing, and culture were/are all lacking to some extent.

Using the 2015 draft to it's fullest advantage would have made a huge dent, but instead we lost futures when we needed them the most. As others (and me) have said the problems go on prior to Murray's tenure. It's nowhere near all his fault, but he was in the best position to change things up and he made things worse.

I don't know how ANY GM comes in to the scenario Botterill was handed, and comes away with a playoff team with a strong pipeline that can sustain any success. Again, it was a crappy farm team with bad coaching, and relatively poor talent coming through previous drafts. The D-corps was A JOKE, and repeatedly ignored or made worse for several years. Whether from bad attitudes or a beaten down morale, the locker room was a mess. To top it off, no current HCs worth a damn wanted to take the job.

So when I "defend Botterill", I'm really more astonished that more people don't fully realize what a mess this franchise was in, and is still partially today. It's a tough row to hoe, and the best route IMO is to revamp coaching, mentality, and culture between Cincy, Rochester, and Buffalo...then draft well and mine the UDFA scene, and slowly increase the overall talent level throughout the entire organization. That's a fix that takes years.

That's not wrong.. Its the drumbeat that also allows sobotka Rodrigo to persist like a cancer in our lineup when a little surgery paid for by a d auction. Would change the entire lame attitude thats crept back and never shouldve started the year