Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[joshjull]

Objective truth if you ask me. He's building an organization from the ground up rather than gutting the team of assets for a few guys he's enamored with. Now that we finally have good coaching, these over-the-top Botterill takes are going to get few and far between.

Botterill is a good GM who made one really bad trade and had a coach who made all the other players he acquired look worse, IMO. Time will tell for sure.

This is where I’m at, Kruger will make or break my opinion. Botts has done a ton of good ground work to build an organization from the bottom up. But he blunted all of that with is hiring of Phil. If Krueger gets them on the path to success. Then I’m back on team Botts. But its early.

 

[Der Jaeger]

You'll see it elsewhere, I added a clause "unless Krueger magic is real", and that's EXACTLY what I'm giving credit to for this start.

Also, early days to be taking a lap, friend.

Referencing your Johansson line.....

 

[Gabrielor]

Referencing your Johansson line.....

Eh....I'm still 100% behind that. It WAS a desperation move to go with him there. Thank the gods its working.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

You'll see it elsewhere, I added a clause "unless Krueger magic is real", and that's EXACTLY what I'm giving credit to for this start.

Also, early days to be taking a lap, friend.

I think it was much earlier when you were calling out "desperation moves".

And no...heaping praise on Krueger as being some savant that took a heaping pile of crap that the worst GM in the history of the NHL put together and made it competitive...is not a narrative that will ever fly. It's a flat out refusal to acknowledge that Botterill is doing a better job with the roster than most fans ever gave him credit for, which was held back by the very common struggle to hire quality HCs. Botterill just needed to find a decent HC to get the team on the right path again. More roster work to be done, of course.

 

[Montag DP]

Of course, he did a couple of good things in the offseason, but he stopped halfway. I don’t see any safety margin for this team yet, God forbid, conditional MoJo will get injured and our team will fall off a cliff, we just have no one to replace it with. We play Sobotka in the top 6, 5 games 0 points. Krueger has to make the third link from the fourth link, since our third link looked terrible all this time. Vesey looks bad, so far this trade looks stupid.

This isn't our year though. It takes time to build quality depth. We'll be shedding a lot of dead weight and adding more talent in the offseason through prospect development and other moves. People have to understand that when they say "it's a process," that means all the holes in the roster are not going to be filled right away.

That's not to say I like everything he's done. The Vesey signing looks just as bad to me as everyone else. As mediocre as Sheary has been, it would be helpful for him to come back and push Vesey to the press box. Something also has to be done about the rest of the Mitts line.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

This isn't our year though. It takes time to build quality depth. We'll be shedding a lot of dead weight and adding more talent in the offseason through prospect development and other moves. People have to understand that when they say "it's a process," that means all the holes in the roster are not going to be filled right away.

That's not to say I like everything he's done. The Vesey signing looks just as bad to me as everyone else. As mediocre as Sheary has been, it would be helpful for him to come back and push Vesey to the press box. Something also has to be done about the rest of the Mitts line.

The Vesey trade doesn't even bother me. The point was to buy time for Thompson or Asplund to get better TOI in Rochester. Vesey is just going to get flipped at the TDL. He cost a 2021 3rd. The worst that could happen is selling him off at a loss like a 2021 4th, but he could very well return a 2020 3rd, which is a net gain in time at least. So for what his purpose really is, selling him off at the TDL and bringing up a more polished Thompson, the trade makes a lot of sense even if Vesey doesn't play that well.

 

[Fjordy]

This isn't our year though. It takes time to build quality depth. We'll be shedding a lot of dead weight and adding more talent in the offseason through prospect development and other moves. People have to understand that when they say "it's a process," that means all the holes in the roster are not going to be filled right away.

That's not to say I like everything he's done. The Vesey signing looks just as bad to me as everyone else. As mediocre as Sheary has been, it would be helpful for him to come back and push Vesey to the press box. Something also has to be done about the rest of the Mitts line.

Not our year? I didn’t understand this expression very well, but Botterill made two good exchanges and signed MoJo to UFA, which immediately strengthened our top 6, and then he stopped, I don’t know why he did it, but we definitely need another attacker in top 6. At the same time, it is not necessary to trade Risto for conditional Ehlers, one could trade picks, as he did to get Miller. We have a good depth of defense, incomprehensible goaltenders, but with whom I think it’s quite possible to get into the playoffs, but we have a terrible depth in the attack and we even lack such players as MoJo and Skinner, who can regularly score points and influence the result.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

I try to take it easy on Paul Hamilton even though I think he sucks. This was so bad. His stupid leading questions/ answering his own questions. It was a waste of my time. Lesson learned.

Earlier in the day PHam said the first Sabres call up will be Wilson or Ellie.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

This isn't our year though. It takes time to build quality depth. We'll be shedding a lot of dead weight and adding more talent in the offseason through prospect development and other moves. People have to understand that when they say "it's a process," that means all the holes in the roster are not going to be filled right away.

That's not to say I like everything he's done. The Vesey signing looks just as bad to me as everyone else. As mediocre as Sheary has been, it would be helpful for him to come back and push Vesey to the press box. Something also has to be done about the rest of the Mitts line.

After what transpired last playoffs between multiple teams, you can no longer wave a white flag that easily. Anything can happen. Tampa looked like one of the best teams in recent history. They got bounced in 4. St.Louis, a team that virtually no one had as a cup winner before last season, who were also in last place Jan 3rd won the cup.

Once you get there anything can happen. If Jack, Sam and Dahlin are as good and special as we think they are or can be then why can't we go on a run? Sure, our team will be most dangerous in another year or two when Dahlin is fully developed but this team can win a round or 2.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Not our year? I didn’t understand this expression very well, but Botterill made two good exchanges and signed MoJo to UFA, which immediately strengthened our top 6, and then he stopped, I don’t know why he did it, but we definitely need another attacker in top 6. At the same time, it is not necessary to trade Risto for conditional Ehlers, one could trade picks, as he did to get Miller. We have a good depth of defense, incomprehensible goaltenders, but with whom I think it’s quite possible to get into the playoffs, but we have a terrible depth in the attack and we even lack such players as MoJo and Skinner, who can regularly score points and influence the result.

I think Botterill had/has a deal in place to trade Ristolainen for a FW. For some reason that deal either fell through or was put on hold. So I don't think Botterill simply thought his work was done and quit tinkering at a certain point in the off-season. There are twelve pending UFAs between Buffalo, Rochester, and the IR. Eight of them are on the roster and five are very likely to be traded before the TDL, so more changes are inevitable during this season.

Asplund, Thompson, and Pilut will be likely additions in/by March. A Ristolainen trade frees up cap space for an outside improvement to the FW group, but after that re-signing RFAs next summer will require the rest of the cap space.

 

[sabrebuild]

Objective truth if you ask me. He's building an organization from the ground up rather than gutting the team of assets for a few guys he's enamored with. Now that we finally have good coaching, these over-the-top Botterill takes are going to get few and far between.

Botterill is a good GM who made one really bad trade and had a coach who made all the other players he acquired look worse, IMO. Time will tell for sure.

I'm all for enjoying this start and I expect the team to continue to improve with the young stars natural progression.

But where are the facts to back up this narrative about Rochester or Botts doing a great job so far?

We are 4 games in and the roster looks like

Olofsson- Murray guy, who maybe benefitted from a year in Rochester, but also was likely this player after a month or two in the ahl just getting used to time and space differences of NA.

Eichel and Sam-Murray, based on an intentional plan.

Skinner- Botts, very nice trade, yikes on the contract.

MarJo, home run free agent thru 4 games.

We don't have anyone on defense who has gone thru bBotts new and improved rochester machine.

We basically have two new good forwards from the Botts regime, Johansson and Skins. Skins cap is rough and Johansson is short term. I'd call that at best a wash with who he let go in Kane and O'Reilly and I think that is generous considering cap.

At defense he has made some nice moves for depth and has his own number one pick that was completely luck based in Dahlin. Luck that they bottomed out when he didn't mean to. Luck that the lotto played out. Luck that Dahlin was the perfect player at the perfect position of need. Who also didn't need Rochester.

Which brings me back to my point, the Rochester development plan has born no fruit to this point, other than Murray fruit and even thatbis debateable. In fact, the two players who most desperately needed that time were denied it last year, and this year only one of them is getting it.

I see young talent not being killed by their coach and a second line that has two good nhlers. And now that we all get a refresher on what the team looks like with enough talent to be competitive, it begs the question, don't make an idiotic trade and fire your horrible coach, and last year could have been, if you believe Olofsson needed some ahl time, by November early December...

Skinner Eichel Erod
Olofsson O'Reilly Reinhart
Girgs Larson Okposo
Smith Mitts Sheary
X pommers

So basically a better offensive group, a year earlier, with nothing to stop them from trading for a Montour type defense to add.

At this point I think there are two main takeaways from the Botts plan so far.

On the plus side, he believes in defensive depth, Hooray!!! It makes me very happy even if it took him 3 years. He also was willing to can Housley after two years.

On the negative side, he kept Housley for two years, despite year one being unbelievably embarrassing. Thats pretty concerning, and I'm not sure if its better that he was just enamored with Phil and brought him back for year two or if it was just a cynical move because firing him right away would look bad on Botts. I prefer the second option. The second negative is he traded away a star player in a rush for garbage.

I think a non-homer evaluation of Botts is that he not shown to be a good gm or bad. He has horrific decisions on his record and some good. If he can go another year without blowing up a core member of the team without a backup plan, we can talk about his good managing.

I will say my bigger concerns today, than say him trading Reinhart for peanuts, is the cap guru guy is heading for some serious pain.

That Reinhart bridge was a bad decision then and looks worse now. I get ppl will argue we don't know what Reinhart wanted, but there is now way he wanted more than Nylander and that deal looks like a bargain today. If Reinhart comes close to ppg they are looking at a 9+ a year deal for a long term deal.

Dahlin is going to get paid, i just hope they do it this summer, but that will be around 8-9 million easy.

Plus Olofsson depending on how his season goes.

For all the dhit talk ppl here send to leafs fans about their contracts, I think the odds are we have a cap structure at the top like this

Eichel 10
Skinner 9
Reinhart 9
Dahlin 9
Olofsson 5-6
And god knows what for MarJo or his replacement.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Nothing earth shattering, lots of "look"

10-11 Jason Botterill with Bulldog & Paul

Does mention deciding on if Rochester or Cinci is the best place for UPL to start.

 

[joshjull]

I'm all for enjoying this start and I expect the team to continue to improve with the young stars natural progression.

But where are the facts to back up this narrative about Rochester or Botts doing a great job so far?

We are 4 games in and the roster looks like

Olofsson- Murray guy, who maybe benefitted from a year in Rochester, but also was likely this player after a month or two in the ahl just getting used to time and space differences of NA.

Eichel and Sam-Murray, based on an intentional plan.

Skinner- Botts, very nice trade, yikes on the contract.

MarJo, home run free agent thru 4 games.

We don't have anyone on defense who has gone thru bBotts new and improved rochester machine.

We basically have two new good forwards from the Botts regime, Johansson and Skins. Skins cap is rough and Johansson is short term. I'd call that at best a wash with who he let go in Kane and O'Reilly and I think that is generous considering cap.

At defense he has made some nice moves for depth and has his own number one pick that was completely luck based in Dahlin. Luck that they bottomed out when he didn't mean to. Luck that the lotto played out. Luck that Dahlin was the perfect player at the perfect position of need. Who also didn't need Rochester.

Which brings me back to my point, the Rochester development plan has born no fruit to this point, other than Murray fruit and even thatbis debateable. In fact, the two players who most desperately needed that time were denied it last year, and this year only one of them is getting it.

I see young talent not being killed by their coach and a second line that has two good nhlers. And now that we all get a refresher on what the team looks like with enough talent to be competitive, it begs the question, don't make an idiotic trade and fire your horrible coach, and last year could have been, if you believe Olofsson needed some ahl time, by November early December...

Skinner Eichel Erod
Olofsson O'Reilly Reinhart
Girgs Larson Okposo
Smith Mitts Sheary
X pommers

So basically a better offensive group, a year earlier, with nothing to stop them from trading for a Montour type defense to add.

At this point I think there are two main takeaways from the Botts plan so far.

On the plus side, he believes in defensive depth, Hooray!!! It makes me very happy even if it took him 3 years. He also was willing to can Housley after two years.

On the negative side, he kept Housley for two years, despite year one being unbelievably embarrassing. Thats pretty concerning, and I'm not sure if its better that he was just enamored with Phil and brought him back for year two or if it was just a cynical move because firing him right away would look bad on Botts. I prefer the second option. The second negative is he traded away a star player in a rush for garbage.

I think a non-homer evaluation of Botts is that he not shown to be a good gm or bad. He has horrific decisions on his record and some good. If he can go another year without blowing up a core member of the team without a backup plan, we can talk about his good managing.

I will say my bigger concerns today, than say him trading Reinhart for peanuts, is the cap guru guy is heading for some serious pain.

That Reinhart bridge was a bad decision then and looks worse now. I get ppl will argue we don't know what Reinhart wanted, but there is now way he wanted more than Nylander and that deal looks like a bargain today. If Reinhart comes close to ppg they are looking at a 9+ a year deal for a long term deal.

Dahlin is going to get paid, i just hope they do it this summer, but that will be around 8-9 million easy.

Plus Olofsson depending on how his season goes.

For all the dhit talk ppl here send to leafs fans about their contracts, I think the odds are we have a cap structure at the top like this

Eichel 10
Skinner 9
Reinhart 9
Dahlin 9
Olofsson 5-6
And god knows what for MarJo or his replacement.

I think you brought up a lot of good points. But I have to take issue with your framing of Rochester and development.

FOr starters a new GM can only work with what the last GM left him with. We are in the 6th season since Murray’s first draft and Olofsson is the first and ONLY player he drafted to come up through the system. That is a reflection on Murray’s drafting as well as trade decisions involving picks/prospects. Its not a reflection on Botts and his teams’ ability to develop.

Specific to Olofsson, Botts and his team had a big imapct on his development with the decisions they made. The first big one was deciding Olofsson should stay in the SHL for a 5th season (4th full season) as a 22yr old in 17-18. Instead of bringing him over. The result was an enormous leap forward in his goal scoring and overall offensive play. The following years (18-19) it was decided he should play an entire year in the AHL. The result was his offensive held and even grew some while he also rounded out his game. For example he was used on the PK and to close out games. All of that leading to the player we saw in camp.

We’ll start to find out how well Botts own picks, UDFAs and prospect trade additions will develop in the coming years. Hickey, Pilut and Ogilvie were already on the farm with UPL and Bryson starting this season and Tage starting there. Other will join them next season.

Murray and his team definitely gets credit for some of the depth that will be developed and possibly contribute at the NHL level. Guys like CJ Smith, Borgen, Asplund, Nelson and Fitzgerald. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that the development structure thats been put in place is a credit to Botts and his team.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

10-28 Jason Botterill with Schopp & the Bulldog

 

[toomuchsauce]

Here we go again. Can't make any moves to improve the offense until the trade deadline because "you've got to see how the young players develop." Can't make any moves at the trade deadline because "the market isn't where we thought it would be this year."

See also "Getting [player] back from injury/calling up [player from Rochester] is like making a trade."

 

[sabrebuild]

I think you brought up a lot of good points. But I have to take issue with your framing of Rochester and development.

FOr starters a new GM can only work with what the last GM left him with. We are in the 6th season since Murray’s first draft and Olofsson is the first and ONLY player he drafted to come up through the system. That is a reflection on Murray’s drafting as well as trade decisions involving picks/prospects. Its not a reflection on Botts and his teams’ ability to develop.

Specific to Olofsson, Botts and his team had a big imapct on his development with the decisions they made. The first big one was deciding Olofsson should stay in the SHL for a 5th season (4th full season) as a 22yr old in 17-18. Instead of bringing him over. The result was an enormous leap forward in his goal scoring and overall offensive play. The following years (18-19) it was decided he should play an entire year in the AHL. The result was his offensive held and even grew some while he also rounded out his game. For example he was used on the PK and to close out games. All of that leading to the player we saw in camp.

We’ll start to find out how well Botts own picks, UDFAs and prospect trade additions will develop in the coming years. Hickey, Pilut and Ogilvie were already on the farm with UPL and Bryson starting this season and Tage starting there. Other will join them next season.

Murray and his team definitely gets credit for some of the depth that will be developed and possibly contribute at the NHL level. Guys like CJ Smith, Borgen, Asplund, Nelson and Fitzgerald. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that the development structure thats been put in place is a credit to Botts and his team.

Saw this two weeks later, but on the development system.

I agree that Murray didn't leave Botts witha bunch of ahl high end prospects. Partly because of traded, partly high picks going to the nhl directly.

On the other hand, Murray did leave behind every hopeful we have in Rochester, beside Giraffe. 3 offseasons later.

Now two points on that info.

One, the facts just shed some truth on the idea that Botts has laid some strong foundation that will help lead the team to glory, in any kind of unusual way. There's nothing so far that indicates that Rochester has helped the Sabres significantly so far. I certainly am not opposed to the Americans being good. I think that would be better than the alternative, and would likely have a positive impact. But it hasn't happened yet.

Olofsson is certainly a point to debate. I understand your view. And I was perfectly fine with Olofsson starting in Rochester.

But I'm not sold on him playing pk and that rounded his game off. His offense is why he is an nhler. He will likely never play pk in the nhl. It may well have helped him to some degree, but I think it's a tough sell to say that year was a huge difference in who he is as a player. But certainly debateable.

The part of this narrative/Botts plan that I find so frustrating is the failure to use this foundation. We read on here that Botts didn't care about winning until next year and the cap clearance of his bad contacts. But then we don't use this time to develop rage and mitts in Rochester.

Like the story that botts didn't have the pieces to show his new wave amerks doesn't hold water when those perfect development players are not used as such. And because of that the only evidence of the development structure Botts has put together is what we have seen from a 24 year old rookie.

I was pretty happy with the swings for nhl defense this summer. I think Kruger was an interesting hire at the minimum and hopefully turns out. I think it has not been all fails with Botts.

But at this point, the development structure that he has instilled in this organization in three off seasons has born little to no fruit.

 

[K8fool]

This isn't our year though. It takes time to build quality depth. We'll be shedding a lot of dead weight and adding more talent in the offseason through prospect development and other moves. People have to understand that when they say "it's a process," that means all the holes in the roster are not going to be filled right away.

That's not to say I like everything he's done. The Vesey signing looks just as bad to me as everyone else. As mediocre as Sheary has been, it would be helpful for him to come back and push Vesey to the press box. Something also has to be done about the rest of the Mitts line.

The common drumbeat we have no depth is being silenced by players like girgs larson and OK.. Playing w consistent effort and showing the talented whats important. In a league of Parity... Get rid of sobotka w a trade of the correct d not rusto..or by roc promotion or cozens makes junior irrelevant and find a better player to step up w mitts ...shear/vesey and ? ..we just may have something now if ulmark steps up and hutton plays games he is jacked up for.. Time is now .. And each year from now..

 

[sabremike]

I am still trying to understand how Botts can see a player as absolutely terrible and worthless as Sobotka and not get him out of Buffalo right now by any means necessary? He is in no way an NHL quality player and I'd be hard pressed to believe any top 6 forward in the entire AHL wouldn't be an improvement on him. All he is right now is a gigantic boat anchor around Jeff and MoJo's necks and everyone can see this except Botts and Ralph.

 

[SabresSharks]

With the Sabres leading the league, there is zero urgency to make changes. Yes, we all remember what happened last season, but most of us would agree that this team and coaching staff is significantly improved from that one. We'll have a much better idea of what to expect from this roster after November's brutal schedule has concluded.

Of course there are weak spots in the lineup, as there are on almost every other team in the league, but I'm fine with being patient for now. If a significant trade occurs, it will almost certainly involve a d-man. Ralph hasn't even seen Montour or Pilut play yet.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Here we go again. Can't make any moves to improve the offense until the trade deadline because "you've got to see how the young players develop." Can't make any moves at the trade deadline because "the market isn't where we thought it would be this year."

See also "Getting [player] back from injury/calling up [player from Rochester] is like making a trade."

Do something Darcy!

 

[Tatanka]

With the Sabres leading the league, there is zero urgency to make changes. Yes, we all remember what happened last season, but most of us would agree that this team and coaching staff is significantly improved from that one. We'll have a much better idea of what to expect from this roster after November's brutal schedule has concluded.

Of course there are weak spots in the lineup, as there are on almost every other team in the league, but I'm fine with being patient for now. If a significant trade occurs, it will almost certainly involve a d-man. Ralph hasn't even seen Montour or Pilut play yet.

Montour was hurt in pre season. Ralph has a good idea of what he has.

 

[HaNotsri]

Do something Darcy!

Entered the thread with the same thought

 

[joshjull]

Saw this two weeks later, but on the development system.

I agree that Murray didn't leave Botts witha bunch of ahl high end prospects. Partly because of traded, partly high picks going to the nhl directly.

It had very little to do with ‘high picks” going directly to the NHL. Jack and Sam were the only two players Murray drafted in the first 2 rounds (with 8 picks) who were NHL regulars at the time of his firing.

I do agree though that he traded away A LOT of prospects (McNabb, Pysyk, Lemiuex, Armia, Zadorov, Grigorenko and Compher) and high picks (21st, 25th and 31st overall picks in 2015 as well as several 2nd rounders) causing this problem. What could have been with those picks generally but its especially painful to think about those 2015 picks.

Trading away all those prospects and higher picks definitely contributed to the talent drain and lack organizational talent available at the time of his firing. All to build a bad NHL team with no depth and little to nothing on the farm.

On the other hand, Murray did leave behind every hopeful we have in Rochester, beside Giraffe. 3 offseasons later.

You forgot Pilut, UPL and Bryson on the hopefully front.

I’d also say you’re being disingenuous moving the goalposts away from drafts and to “3 offseasons”. The overwhelming majority of any organizations prospects come from the draft not offseason transactions. This season would be the first one to realistically start expecting Bott’s draft picks outside the 1st round to enter the farm. Bryson and UPL being the first two. We’ve also only had TWO seasons of the development system in place to develop players.

Even on the “offseason” front In terms of prospects acquisition Botts has done well the last two signing Pilut, R2 and trading for Joker. R2 on the way next season along with draft picks like Pekar and ???

The funny thing is if we weren’t dealing with off season surgeries and a camp injury we would likely have had UPL, Joker, Tage, Bryson and probably even Pilut starting in Rochester. Which would be a wealth of talent on the farm.

I’ll answer the rest of your post in a separate response.

 

[joshjull]

Now two points on that info.

One, the facts just shed some truth on the idea that Botts has laid some strong foundation that will help lead the team to glory, in any kind of unusual way. There's nothing so far that indicates that Rochester has helped the Sabres significantly so far. I certainly am not opposed to the Americans being good. I think that would be better than the alternative, and would likely have a positive impact. But it hasn't happened yet.

What he is doing isn’t unique or going to lead us to glory. I’ve never argued that. Thats a bit of a silly straw man argument.

When I’ve debated the pros and cons of Botts tenure. A pro in Botts favor to me is his focus on development and the farm. Something that isn’t unique, many organizations do it. But it was ignored for many years by this organization under Murray and Regier. So many of us are happy to see that and give him credit for it.

Olofsson is certainly a point to debate. I understand your view. And I was perfectly fine with Olofsson starting in Rochester.

But I'm not sold on him playing pk and that rounded his game off. His offense is why he is an nhler. He will likely never play pk in the nhl. It may well have helped him to some degree, but I think it's a tough sell to say that year was a huge difference in who he is as a player. But certainly debateable.

VO is in the NHL because he has an elite level shot and developed the rest of his overall game to handle 5v5 play in the NHL. Having an elite shot in and of itself is simply not enough for small, not very fast player who isn’t a dynamic enough skater to create his own shooting chances. He has to be able to handle 5v5 play away from the puck. Thats what he was tasked with last year. He knows it and said it as did his coaches in the AHL.

What they did with him was development 101. Have a player maintain their strength while focusing on developing their weaknesses. Something thats much more likely to happen in the league below where they are trying to get. Doesn’t always work and depends on the player. But in VO’s case it worked.

The part of this narrative/Botts plan that I find so frustrating is the failure to use this foundation. We read on here that Botts didn't care about winning until next year and the cap clearance of his bad contacts. But then we don't use this time to develop rage and mitts in Rochester.

Like the story that botts didn't have the pieces to show his new wave amerks doesn't hold water when those perfect development players are not used as such. And because of that the only evidence of the development structure Botts has put together is what we have seen from a 24 year old rookie.

I was pretty happy with the swings for nhl defense this summer. I think Kruger was an interesting hire at the minimum and hopefully turns out. I think it has not been all fails with Botts.

But at this point, the development structure that he has instilled in this organization in three off seasons has born little to no fruit.

This part is confusing.

For starters, I’ve never argued Botts wasn’t trying to win in any of his seasons as GM. So that whole strain of argument coming from that doesn’t apply to me or make much sense to me.

No idea what the following is supposed to mean either ...”Like the story that botts didn't have the pieces to show his new wave amerks doesn't hold water when those perfect development players are not used as such.”

 

[jc17]

I still think you'll find few GM's that operate up the the fanbases' idea of perfect.

Carolina has nailed a lot of moves but beyond that it's not like GM's are all making strong move after strong move while JB is tripping over himself.

I dont think it's wrong for fans to criticize the bad moves, there just has to be some acknowledgement that if Botts was fired today its far from a guarantee the franchise would get better, because they current pool of NHL GM hopefuls is still meh.

And at the end of the day, that's what matters. The conversation isnt "Could i be a better GM than Botterill?" its "Would his replacement do any better, given what we know about who teams hire as general managers?"