Jason Botterill Discussion 3

[Dreakon13]

If we're comparing Botts and Murray, Botts is worse solely because of the ROR trade.

Sure Murray made a greater number of bad moves, but nothing even coming close to that. That trade set the franchise back for years.

Eh. It was a lousy trade, made superficially worse because St Louis turns around and wins the Cup. Leaving already edgy Sabres fans sitting here repeating "that'd be us if we just didn't make that trade" in their heads nonstop for the last year. There's no reason to believe we'd even be in the playoffs if we had ROR still.

This whole "setting the franchise back for years" thing is pure hyperbolic fantasy.

EDIT: This team had/has a lot of roster construction and soul searching to do, with or without ROR. Him stabilizing the top 6 would've just been a small piece of the puzzle.

 

[Chainshot]

Has he had any recent media conversations? I am curious what he might be saying about the roster cut down.

 

[jc17]

Has he had any recent media conversations? I am curious what he might be saying about the roster cut down.

It's a situation where some players will make the team and others won't.

The final selection will be based on a combination of what guys have done in the past, but more importantly how they came into camp. We're looking to ice the most competitive team with guys that are hungry and ready to win.

Or who knows, maybe he'll say sobotka and scandella stink, okposo needs to retire, and remind everyone we still don't have a 2c.

It will be one of the 2

 

[sufferer]

Eh. It was a lousy trade, made superficially worse because St Louis turns around and wins the Cup. Leaving already edgy Sabres fans sitting here repeating "that'd be us if we just didn't make that trade" in their heads nonstop for the last year. There's no reason to believe we'd even be in the playoffs if we had ROR still.

This whole "setting the franchise back for years" thing is pure hyperbolic fantasy.

EDIT: This team had/has a lot of roster construction and soul searching to do, with or without ROR. Him stabilizing the top 6 would've just been a small piece of the puzzle.

The trade was comically bad in every way imaginable. Just horrific. St. Louis' dramatic turnaround directly impacted the outcome of the trade, so no, it wasn't just superficial. What you imagine people were thinking is irrelevant, but having an elite 2C would obviously go a long way in making the team more competitive. ROR would not only stabilize the top-6, but it would trickle down to the third and fourth lines with players being positioned more suitably to their abilities. His presence would help out the D, as well, with his elite faceoff ability among other things. But now, we've got to wait years for even a somewhat viable replacement. That's what I'd call a setback, and this is year two of this predicament.

 

[Dreakon13]

The trade was comically bad in every way imaginable. Just horrific. St. Louis' dramatic turnaround directly impacted the outcome of the trade, so no, it wasn't just superficial. What you imagine people were thinking is irrelevant, but having an elite 2C would obviously go a long way in making the team more competitive. ROR would not only stabilize the top-6, but it would trickle down to the third and fourth lines with players being positioned more suitably to their abilities. But now, we've got to wait years for even a somewhat viable replacement. That's what I'd call a setback, and this is year two of this predicament.

I hate to keep going back to it... but we weren't good with ROR.

I'm NOT saying ROR was the problem... but the idea that we'd be dramatically better this year because of him is fantasy. Having ROR on the team is better than not having him and it fills a big hole, but this team had/has a long way to go with or without.

 

[GameMisconduct]

Eh. It was a lousy trade, made superficially worse because St Louis turns around and wins the Cup. Leaving already edgy Sabres fans sitting here repeating "that'd be us if we just didn't make that trade" in their heads nonstop for the last year. There's no reason to believe we'd even be in the playoffs if we had ROR still.

This whole "setting the franchise back for years" thing is pure hyperbolic fantasy.

EDIT: This team had/has a lot of roster construction and soul searching to do, with or without ROR. Him stabilizing the top 6 would've just been a small piece of the puzzle.

I know you said "in their heads" but I feel like I'm around a pretty fair number of edgy Sabres fans who are/were plenty salty about that trade and I can't fathom any of them believing we would have won the Cup if we didn't trade RoR, let alone hearing them express anything like that.

I agree with you that having RoR wouldn't have been a golden ticket into the playoffs (that's a fail train with plenty of conductors, none greater than than coach) but I also don't think it's hyperbolic fantasy to suggest that the gaping hole we have right now at 2C and loss of a high level player with the capacity to be deployed in all the ways RoR can is a significant impediment to the playoffs or franchise down the road. It's not just him directly, but the ripple effects (e.g. do we force Mitts development in the same manner). You're right him stabilizing 2c just a piece, but I think it is an outsized one.

I've liked a lot of what Botts has done near term (certainly much more than the earlier parts of his tenure), yet even with those moves, that 2C hole still looms over everything.

I think right now any confidence in the outcome of this season is clearly faith based more than based in rationale (though there are some reasonable reasons for hope). I'm a fan so I'll always want to be hopeful and I still have some hope for positive developments this season (more hope than I had before last season tbh) despite how much the franchise has seemingly attempted to grind that spark out. Hopefully as we progress through the season and beyond, that hope gains more of a foundation in reality.

 

[Snippit]

I hate to keep going back to it... but we weren't good with ROR.

I'm NOT saying ROR was the problem... but the idea that we'd be dramatically better this year because of him is fantasy. Having ROR on the team is better than not having him and it fills a big hole, but this team had/has a long way to go with or without.

And we’re not good with Eichel right now...doesn’t make him expendable

 

[Dreakon13]

And we’re not good with Eichel right now...doesn’t make him expendable

Didn't say he was expendable. I said we wouldn't have seen a dramatic improvement solely because of him. This team needs more than a 2C, and whatever trickle down effect having him is supposed to have... it didn't happen in his time here, and probably wouldn't have happened last year either.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Didn't say he was expendable. I said we wouldn't have seen a dramatic improvement solely because of him. This team needs more than a 2C, and whatever trickle down effect having him is supposed to have... it didn't happen in his time here, and probably wouldn't have happened last year either.

Sure this team needs more than just a 2c but you don't make progress moving forward by removing one of you best players for very little in return.

 

[Dreakon13]

Sure this team needs more than just a 2c but you don't make progress moving forward by removing one of you best players for very little in return.

I'm not arguing for the trade, or justifying it... piece for piece it was a really bad deal. I'm just explaining why I feel the impact wasn't as franchise destroyingly catastrophic as people paint it as.

 

[Chainshot]

It's a situation where some players will make the team and others won't.

The final selection will be based on a combination of what guys have done in the past, but more importantly how they came into camp. We're looking to ice the most competitive team with guys that are hungry and ready to win.

Or who knows, maybe he'll say sobotka and scandella stink, okposo needs to retire, and remind everyone we still don't have a 2c.

It will be one of the 2

I admit I laughed.

 

[OkimLom]

Sure this team needs more than just a 2c but you don't make progress moving forward by removing one of you best players for very little in return.

Especially when you consider that 2C (ROR) could've made up for a weak bottom 6 until you fix that. Instead now we wasted 2 offseason filling a tough role that we already had filled, while barely moving the needle on the bottom 6 talent level and at the same time, using that bottom 6 talent to shift responsibility to them that ROR had, which greatly decreases the chances of coming out on top with matchups. We are left with bringing in wingers (who could play center; but that's not where their strengths are) or filling via a NHL "rookie" and hoping he develops quickly.

 

[Dreakon13]

Especially when you consider that 2C (ROR) could've made up for a weak bottom 6 until you fix that.

Except he never did that at any point in his time here.

EDIT: Again, this isn't justification of the trade or claiming that he didn't/wouldn't make a difference on the team. There's just this fantasy of the dramatic impact him being here would make. We don't need to fantasize about how much better the team would be if he were here... he already was, just one season ago, we already know.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Nothing earth shattering, lots of "look"

10-11 Jason Botterill with Bulldog & Paul

 

[Gabrielor]

They asked botterill terrible questions.

 

[Chainshot]

They asked botterill terrible questions.

That doesn’t seem new.

 

[Der Jaeger]

This team is shaping to look eerily like last year’s. I guess “roster surgery” was a myth.

Johansson to center is basically a desperation move because he couldn’t figure out a better plan.

If he survives another 26-31st finish, I think it’ll be time to step away from this team for a bit, until he does.

Ooof

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Ooof

Don't read the rest of this thread, it's chock full of 'em.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

They asked botterill terrible questions.

They don't want to get packages from Entercom quite yet.

That doesn’t seem new.

Actually Mike can ask him tougher questions but was away.

 

[Steddy33]

They asked botterill terrible questions.

I try to take it easy on Paul Hamilton even though I think he sucks. This was so bad. His stupid leading questions/ answering his own questions. It was a waste of my time. Lesson learned.

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Moving RoR set the franchise back? So was it going to be year 4 or 5 having RoR as the 2c when we made the playoffs?

Botts robbing Carolina of a high end elite 5v5 goal scorer for a 2,3,6 and garbage prospect, signing a legit 50 point 2C for 4.5 x 2, trading a 2nd from said "franchise set back" trade to acquire a legit #3 dman and acquiring another #3 D for a late 1st and Guhle makes up for it.

Tim Murray was GARBAGE. Straight up. Tim Murray was the worst GM in franchise history. Even the RoR trade Murray made was nothing more then paying full retail value for a guy with 1 year left on his deal before UFA. Within the next 5 years Colin Miller, Ryan Johnson and Tage Thompson will make the deal more palatable. If Colin Miller is playing 20+ minutes, Tage becomes a 20 goal scorer and Johnson a smooth 2 way top 4 D on an eventual cup winner will make the trade a win win.

 

[Jamie Walker]

people are also forgetting about his attention to the Amerks. I think he's slowly bringing back the old school philosophy that has always worked. slow cook your prospects, and have your affiliate in the AHL be consistently successful. we haven't been able to do that for so long because of a lack of quality players. just my opinion

 

[Montag DP]

people are also forgetting about his attention to the Amerks. I think he's slowly bringing back the old school philosophy that has always worked. slow cook your prospects, and have your affiliate in the AHL be consistently successful. we haven't been able to do that for so long because of a lack of quality players. just my opinion

Objective truth if you ask me. He's building an organization from the ground up rather than gutting the team of assets for a few guys he's enamored with. Now that we finally have good coaching, these over-the-top Botterill takes are going to get few and far between.

Botterill is a good GM who made one really bad trade and had a coach who made all the other players he acquired look worse, IMO. Time will tell for sure.

 

[Fjordy]

Of course, he did a couple of good things in the offseason, but he stopped halfway. I don’t see any safety margin for this team yet, God forbid, conditional MoJo will get injured and our team will fall off a cliff, we just have no one to replace it with. We play Sobotka in the top 6, 5 games 0 points. Krueger has to make the third link from the fourth link, since our third link looked terrible all this time. Vesey looks bad, so far this trade looks stupid.

 

[Gabrielor]

Ooof

You'll see it elsewhere, I added a clause "unless Krueger magic is real", and that's EXACTLY what I'm giving credit to for this start.

Also, early days to be taking a lap, friend.