Player Discussion Jake Virtanen, Pt. XXII: 'Tis no man — 'tis a relentless redemption machine

[lawrence]

Tuch came off a 17 goal 22 assist 78 game season in 2018 his team made it to the finals, awarded 4.7 million contact for 6 years, Jake had better numbers that said I don’t even think Jake even deserved half that amount and I like Jake, huge pass of his agency wants to push for that amount.

 

[F A N]

If this is your actual response to what he's saying, then you've completely missed the point.

My point is that point production doesn't tell the whole story. I think you would agree that a player who consistently puts up 30 goals and 50 points is worth much more than a say a player who consistently puts up 20-21 goals and 45 points. The 30 goal scorer would be a legitimate first line winger in the league while the 20 goal 45 point player might just be a decent 2nd line player.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

The focus on Virtanen right now is completely and totally bizarre. Of all the various useless parts clogging up the roster, this is the one we're ragging on? This is the one Benning is getting sniffy about on the radio? I mean, I was 99.9% sure he was gone before the playoffs, but the way this team goes about its business is just so mind-numbingly stupid sometimes. There's a certain someone making $6 million a year in the pressbox, $10 million a year rumbling around in Sutter, Beagle and Roussel (to be fair about it, Roussel was actually involved and not useless this playoffs), a 2nd/3rd pairing giraffe dman paid like a #1 for the next half decade...yet somehow discussion is raging about a guy who this year finally became the 20-20 guy his boosters have long talked him up as. It's just so weird.

And just for a second, let's take a moment and imagine how different the conversation would be about Virtanen if, instead of saying what he had, Benning had said: "Jake really improved for us this year. That's inarguable. While we feel there are still areas that need some work, we're committed to working with this player to address these areas moving forward, and we think we still haven't scratched the surface with Jake." How bloody hard is that?

I just can't fathom how many people around here act like Benning's attitude is totally unrelated to the market. Sure, everyone watched the playoffs. Everyone can see how Virtanen performed. But if you can't understand why people go into negotiations differently with Benning if they thought he really wanted to keep Virtanen and if he was looking to dump him at the first opportunity, I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[HockeyWooot]

Jake has a pedestrian playoffs, he was disappointing relative to expectations. Same with Gaudette.

Beagle, Sutter and Roussel were not particularly good, but this is largely expected.

Which is a bigger problem?

 

[lawrence]

Jake has a pedestrian playoffs, he was disappointing relative to expectations. Same with Gaudette.

Beagle, Sutter and Roussel were not particularly good, but this is largely expected.

Which is a bigger problem?

nothing, we just got badly out played in round 2 and stood a much better chance have we played the stars. Leadership like beagle and rouselle helps.
I think Jim might be trying to leverage his next signing on Jake.

 

[VancouverJagger]

I think part of the issue with Jake here that I haven't seen mentioned a lot is that I don't get the sense he's liked or respected in the dressing room. Looking at the interactions I saw during our run this year with the rest of his teammates he almost looked shunned or out of place at times. If that is indeed the case it's obviously going to factor into the reasoning as to whether or not we keep him.

Sure he's progressed every year and is a useful player but ultimately he's still a bit of a boob who continues to make questionable decisions on and off of the ice.

I've been on the Jake train all along - touting how he's gonna be a force come playoffs. Other than a few spots here and there that wasn't at all the case. I would rather have him on our team as he is a useful player at a reasonable cap however I think he's as good as gone - and I can't blame management at all for feeling the same way about him.

 

[vanuck]

Not that it would be the right move but I'm fully expecting them to ship him out at this rate.

 

[DomY]

Tuch came off a 17 goal 22 assist 78 game season in 2018 his team made it to the finals, awarded 4.7 million contact for 6 years, Jake had better numbers that said I don’t even think Jake even deserved half that amount and I like Jake, huge pass of his agency wants to push for that amount.

Tuch is the same age as Jake, and in that same year Jake put up 10-10-20, albeit playing with less talent.

I think the main takeaway from Benning's interviews is the fact that they want to build a 3rd line similar to VGK's where they have a legit weapon on the 3rd line and 6 forwards better than him in their top 2 lines. The closest thing we have ever had to that is when Boeser was dropped to the 3rd line for a game. Gaudette/Motte/Virtanen may be two pieces of a Vegas style 3rd line, but they need to get better and Jake makes the most sense to lose because he probably has value around the league.

 

[IslandBeast]

I'm seriously not sure what you expect Jake to do playing with Beagle on the 4th line at 10mins a game. You want him to score goals there? He is put in the toughest defensive matchup, why would Green do that if he just stands around and throws the puck away? Why is Roussel and Gaudette sheltered more than Virtanen?[/QUOTE]


I'm not asking for goals.. I could care less if he scored 50 in the regular season if he shows up with putrid efforts like that in the playoffs. Everyone keeps going back to these 18 goals, and "what do people expect him to do on a line with beagle etc" Um well he can start by moving his feet? Lay a big hit, grind like crazy in the corners or how about just grind in general, do friggin anything, just make an effort but he just doesn't. Even the Knights players were chirping, literally telling the kid he wasn't doing anything lol.

We want more 20 goal scorers do we? Okay well Brandon Pirri is available I think, and we should bring back Granlund, even Baertschi scored 18 one year as well. They can all snipe and do nothing else, perfect fit. A "sheltered" Antoine Roussel playing 7 and a half minutes per game, arguably had a bigger impact on our playoffs than Virtanen who I believe was over 11 minutes per game.

Imagine working your absolute tail off to earn another contract in Vancouver only to be traded away to make room for JV's raise after watching him tip-toe through another 75% of the reg season and 90% of the playoffs. Precedent, culture, accountability?

You can't teach hard work

 

[iceburg]

I'm seriously not sure what you expect Jake to do playing with Beagle on the 4th line at 10mins a game. You want him to score goals there? He is put in the toughest defensive matchup, why would Green do that if he just stands around and throws the puck away? Why is Roussel and Gaudette sheltered more than Virtanen?


I'm not asking for goals.. I could care less if he scored 50 in the regular season if he shows up with putrid efforts like that in the playoffs. Everyone keeps going back to these 18 goals, and "what do people expect him to do on a line with beagle etc" Um well he can start by moving his feet? Lay a big hit, grind like crazy in the corners or how about just grind in general, do friggin anything, just make an effort but he just doesn't. Even the Knights players were chirping, literally telling the kid he wasn't doing anything lol.

We want more 20 goal scorers do we? Okay well Brandon Pirri is available I think, and we should bring back Granlund, even Baertschi scored 18 one year as well. They can all snipe and do nothing else, perfect fit. A "sheltered" Antoine Roussel playing 7 and a half minutes per game, arguably had a bigger impact on our playoffs than Virtanen who I believe was over 11 minutes per game.

Imagine working your absolute tail off to earn another contract in Vancouver only to be traded away to make room for JV's raise after watching him tip-toe through another 75% of the reg season and 90% of the playoffs. Precedent, culture, accountability?

You can't teach hard work

Actually you can...JT Miller is a good example of one who figured it out.

 

[F A N]

I think part of the issue with Jake here that I haven't seen mentioned a lot is that I don't get the sense he's liked or respected in the dressing room. Looking at the interactions I saw during our run this year with the rest of his teammates he almost looked shunned or out of place at times. If that is indeed the case it's obviously going to factor into the reasoning as to whether or not we keep him.

Sure he's progressed every year and is a useful player but ultimately he's still a bit of a boob who continues to make questionable decisions on and off of the ice.

I've been on the Jake train all along - touting how he's gonna be a force come playoffs. Other than a few spots here and there that wasn't at all the case. I would rather have him on our team as he is a useful player at a reasonable cap however I think he's as good as gone - and I can't blame management at all for feeling the same way about him.

It is because he continues to hang with "the worst crew."

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I'm not asking for goals.. I could care less if he scored 50 in the regular season if he shows up with putrid efforts like that in the playoffs. Everyone keeps going back to these 18 goals, and "what do people expect him to do on a line with beagle etc" Um well he can start by moving his feet? Lay a big hit, grind like crazy in the corners or how about just grind in general, do friggin anything, just make an effort but he just doesn't. Even the Knights players were chirping, literally telling the kid he wasn't doing anything lol.

We want more 20 goal scorers do we? Okay well Brandon Pirri is available I think, and we should bring back Granlund, even Baertschi scored 18 one year as well. They can all snipe and do nothing else, perfect fit. A "sheltered" Antoine Roussel playing 7 and a half minutes per game, arguably had a bigger impact on our playoffs than Virtanen who I believe was over 11 minutes per game.

Imagine working your absolute tail off to earn another contract in Vancouver only to be traded away to make room for JV's raise after watching him tip-toe through another 75% of the reg season and 90% of the playoffs. Precedent, culture, accountability?

You can't teach hard work

You do know that you win games by out scoring your opponents, not by out hitting them, not by out grinding them, etc? You want him to "do frigging anything", well he scored at a 22 goal pace, that's not doing anything to you? You dont care if he score 50 goals in the regular season unless he do something in the playoff, are you one of those that wanted to run Naslund and Bertuzzi out of town? Guess what, without their almost 50 goals, we wouldn't have made the playoff in the first place anyways!
Let me know when Granlund or Beartschi score at a 20+ goals pace playing half the season on the 4th line with Beagle and around 10mins a game ok? Go back and check the stats from those years and see what role they play and ice time they received.
I'm pretty sure Jake is gone this off season because I'm certain Benning share your view, just don't complain next season when we get near nothing offensively from the bottom 6 and lose a bunch of close games.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Tuch is the same age as Jake, and in that same year Jake put up 10-10-20, albeit playing with less talent.

I think the main takeaway from Benning's interviews is the fact that they want to build a 3rd line similar to VGK's where they have a legit weapon on the 3rd line and 6 forwards better than him in their top 2 lines. The closest thing we have ever had to that is when Boeser was dropped to the 3rd line for a game. Gaudette/Motte/Virtanen may be two pieces of a Vegas style 3rd line, but they need to get better and Jake makes the most sense to lose because he probably has value around the league.

To me, that pretty much summed up the problem with the original mistake of drafting Virtanen #6 overall, over the likes of Nylander, Ehlers and (if you believe Gallehger) Larkin. There were many red flags with Jake from the beginning, so Benning shouldn't really complain now that Jake has not developed into a top 6 forward. And if he wants a weapon on the 3rd line, well the above mentioned players would all fit that role.
The disappointment of Benning should be laid in his scouting team (or himself, if he is the one pushing for Virtanen at #6oa), not in Jake himself.

 

[VanJack]

Jake has a pedestrian playoffs, he was disappointing relative to expectations. Same with Gaudette.

Beagle, Sutter and Roussel were not particularly good, but this is largely expected.

Which is a bigger problem?

Which is the bigger problem? You have to ask? The most Virtanen will get is $3m a season as an RFA. Gaudette is making barely above the league minimum and has no arbitration rights as an RFA . So he probably maxes out at $1.6m season.

Meantime, between them Beagle, Sutter and Roussel chew up more than $11m under the cap. And if you add in Eriksson, who couldn't get into the lineup most nights, that number swells to $17m.

Now tell me again which is the biggest problem.

 

[Intangibos]

Jake has a pedestrian playoffs, he was disappointing relative to expectations. Same with Gaudette.

Beagle, Sutter and Roussel were not particularly good, but this is largely expected.

Which is a bigger problem?

Funny, I could have sworn that for years certain segments of this fan base were saying these specific players would be difference makers in the playoffs.

Must have imagined that. Weird.

 

[IslandBeast]

You do know that you win games by out scoring your opponents, not by out hitting them, not by out grinding them, etc? You want him to "do frigging anything", well he scored at a 22 goal pace, that's not doing anything to you? You dont care if he score 50 goals in the regular season unless he do something in the playoff, are you one of those that wanted to run Naslund and Bertuzzi out of town? Guess what, without their almost 50 goals, we wouldn't have made the playoff in the first place anyways!
Let me know when Granlund or Beartschi score at a 20+ goals pace playing half the season on the 4th line with Beagle and around 10mins a game ok? Go back and check the stats from those years and see what role they play and ice time they received.
I'm pretty sure Jake is gone this off season because I'm certain Benning share your view, just don't complain next season when we get near nothing offensively from the bottom 6 and lose a bunch of close games.

Naslund didn't win us jack *** Good for him and his 40 + goals year after year.

You win games by scoring goals, you win championships when you have a full unit that 'buys in' and trusts each other. Nobody can trust Virtanen. I'm not here to celly and do a shotgun every time Jake scores a goal in game number 30-60 of the regular season. Young guys need to figure out how to play the game not how to bring energy and work hard, they should already be filled with that.

Naslund, Bertuzzi, the Sedins are how you get to the playoffs. Lapierre, Torres, Hansen, Higgins, Glass, Bieksa, the dog-on-bone grinding mentality gets you to the cup.

Jake still probably thinks we have a game coming up sometime this week, he's probably sitting at the rink wondering where everyone is right now. The kid is lost and can't be found

 

[Peter10]

Naslund didn't win us jack *** Good for him and his 40 + goals year after year.

You win games by scoring goals, you win championships when you have a full unit that 'buys in' and trusts each other. Nobody can trust Virtanen. I'm not here to celly and do a shotgun every time Jake scores a goal in game number 30-60 of the regular season. Young guys need to figure out how to play the game not how to bring energy and work hard, they should already be filled with that.

Naslund, Bertuzzi, the Sedins are how you get to the playoffs. Lapierre, Torres, Hansen, Higgins, Glass, Bieksa, the dog-on-bone grinding mentality gets you to the cup.

Jake still probably thinks we have a game coming up sometime this week, he's probably sitting at the rink wondering where everyone is right now. The kid is lost and can't be found

You can win cups without the likes of Glass or Hansen but you dont win one without Sedin calibre players.

 

[IslandBeast]

You can win cups without the likes of Glass or Hansen but you dont win one without Sedin calibre players.

You don't win with guys who stand around not knowing what to do while giving piss poor efforts either, so what do you suggest?

 

[Peter10]

You don't win with guys who stand around not knowing what to do while giving piss poor efforts either, so what do you suggest?

So going into the playoffs you choose Glass over Sedin?

 

[racerjoe]

You don't win with guys who stand around not knowing what to do while giving piss poor efforts either, so what do you suggest?

You are totally right you don't win with useless players... so I would start by getting rid of Sutter, Beagle, Rousell, Ferland. Get useful players in there.

 

[Fatass]

You are totally right you don't win with useless players... so I would start by getting rid of Sutter, Beagle, Rousell, Ferland. Get useful players in there.

Agreed, but Loui is kind of useless too. Let’s add his useless six million dollar cap hit to the 14 million in your list. Then we get a nice round 20 million in useless players Benning thought it was good tea, building to sign.

 

[racerjoe]

Agreed, but Loui is kind of useless too. Let’s add his useless six million dollar cap hit to the 14 million in your list. Then we get a nice round 20 million in useless players Benning thought it was good tea, building to sign.

I forgot about him, but the point is there is a lot bigger issues in the lineup than Jake. In the long run you probably need to replace him, but he currently and probably next year should be kept at his low salary. Especially when we have the junk on the roster we do.

 

[Fatass]

I forgot about him, but the point is there is a lot bigger issues in the lineup than Jake. In the long run you probably need to replace him, but he currently and probably next year should be kept at his low salary. Especially when we have the junk on the roster we do.

It’s frustrating as a fan seeing Benning has put us in a cap hell situation where we are questioning if we have the cap room to sign Tofu, Jake, Marky, and Stecher, because we have to honour the horrifyingly toxic contracts to a group of crap old guys. How does this scenario Benning has created make us better?

 

[Canuckle1970]

I believe they're going to keep Jake, but at the lowest possible $$$$$, which is why they're playing down his value on the airwaves. They plan to lowball him on his new contract, and if he decides to go to arbitration, they're "signaling" (mostly to the fans) that they'll let him walk if they don't like the dollars.

So.....how much does Jake want to stay in Vancouver vs more dollars on the open market? If he wants to stay, it will be on the Canucks' terms. Whether you agree with ownership or not, it seems, despite his improved regular season, that Jake's status with ownership is on a "take it or leave it" basis.

Being the eternal optimist, I'm hoping that they agree to term/dollars, and Jake gets his wake-up call and learns what it means to be a pro - off the ice as well as on.

 

[Fatass]

I believe they're going to keep Jake, but at the lowest possible $$$$$, which is why they're playing down his value on the airwaves. They plan to lowball him on his new contract, and if he decides to go to arbitration, they're "signaling" (mostly to the fans) that they'll let him walk if they don't like the dollars.

So.....how much does Jake want to stay in Vancouver vs more dollars on the open market? If he wants to stay, it will be on the Canucks' terms. Whether you agree with ownership or not, it seems, despite his improved regular season, that Jake's status with ownership is on a "take it or leave it" basis.

Being the eternal optimist, I'm hoping that they agree to term/dollars, and Jake gets his wake-up call and learns what it means to be a pro - off the ice as well as on.

If we trade Jake and Stecher we get two positives. One we likely get back picks in this coming draft. Two we then have the cap room to sign Tofu.