Player Discussion Jake Virtanen, Pt. XXII: 'Tis no man — 'tis a relentless redemption machine

[Aphid Attraction]

I just don't get this perspective.

Jake led the team in GWG (6) and scored at an excellent 40+ point pace while having over 100 hits with average ice-time of 13 minutes a night.

Given his limited ice-time, his production is excellent.

He's not Cam Neely but he's far from a bust.

Yea but look at it this way, if Jake is traded it would make room for say a 25 year old, with size and speed that can be put on the bottom 6 and move up the line-up. now this guy we would bring in would have some consistency issues, that's what makes him a bottom 6 and not a top 6, but he could 20-20 potential.

If it's Jake or the mystery box, I choose the mystery box, who knows what you could get, hell it could even be a Jake.

 

[HockeyWooot]

I would understand if the Canucks moves on, but I wouldn’t be in a rush to get rid of him either. Unless we really think this is his peak, on the assumption he will make further strides why wouldn’t we keep him?

The last year overall has been a step forward for Jake. An average playoff performance doesn’t change that.

If we are looking to make the bottom 6 younger and faster, skilled with size, why would be be in a rush to toss away a player with his skill set.

I do firmly believe JV18s biggest issue is between the ears, or a confidence issue. If he has a bad stretch or gets benched, he plays to not make a mistake rather than try to make a difference out there.

I do think he should get longer looks on the top line. As many have suggested the Pettersson line is the strongest with him on the ice. He scored at a high G/60 rate, has a high number of hits and takeaways relative to minutes played. At the end of the day, don’t we want to get the most of our players?

I do think he’s miscast or misused as a bottom 6 player. We’re clearly not developing him in line with that, why wouldn’t we have him on the PK then?

Of a bottom 6 that pays 6M for Eriksson, 4.25M for Sutter, 3M for Beagle, 3.5 for Ferland, 3.36 for Baertschi, is Virtanen really not worth the 2.5-3M he’ll get?

 

[geebaan]

Just waiting for the inevitable trade and this threads closure

 

[FreeMcdavid]

enough is enough. 6 years of waiting for JV to reach his potential.

How many camps has he come to where he has been out of shape.

Completely against the type or core players we have like Pettersson and Horvat who are the best players but also the hardest workers.

This fan base is still scared of the Cam Neely effect.

Canucks traded Neely after 3 seasons, waay to early and that was on them.

If Jake gets traded and doesnt workout in Vancouver well thats on him not the team.

6 years of inconsistency and unprofessionalism.

Move the guy already while he has value.

Big Zack Macewan is ready to eat and take Jake's role at the dinner table.

 

[VanJack]

I can understand some posters still impacted by the 'Cam Neely effect'. Big winger out of the WHL and a local kid. Seemingly all the potential in the world who struggles with either the pressure or the expectations in his first few seasons. Then gets traded and becomes a team captain and has a HOF career.

That ain't happening with Shotgun Jake. When your coach calls you out at the start of training camp; and then the GM does the same at the post-season presser, it's pretty telling. Would be shocked if he's back for another training camp. They need room for Hoglander and eventually Podkolzin anyway.

But I wouldn't 'give him away' like they did with Zack Kassian. They need a d-man or a decent draft pick or two back in any transaction.

 

[F A N]

I just don't get this perspective.

Jake led the team in GWG (6) and scored at an excellent 40+ point pace while having over 100 hits with average ice-time of 13 minutes a night.

Given his limited ice-time, his production is excellent.

He's not Cam Neely but he's far from a bust.

Jake is an NHL forward. Health permitting, he's going to continue enjoying an NHL career. He's only a bust considering that there were better forwards in consideration for the #6 spot that have turned out to be better from the start. Otherwise, if he's a 20-40 guy that's pretty good production for a middle 6 forward.

With that said, the Canucks have been talking about compete and have not been patient with players that the team perceives as not doing everything they can to get better. Kassian and Hutton were let go in part because they didn't work hard enough in the offseason to be in the best shape they can be. Before then, Hodgson was let go because he was viewed as a high maintenance player by management. Right or wrong, what the Canucks are trying to build is a team that competes every night. The Canucks were, for many years, led by the Sedins who were known for their conditioning. They are always one of the best conditioned athletes on the team. Petey came into camp blowing everyone away at the bag skate.

With that said, players do mature. JT Miller in his early years didn't come to camp in shape. It looks like Hutton has been showing up to camp in better shape that we previously saw him. Kassian turned his life around. Virtanen, when he was in Utica, went back to the rink when the lights were off to work out. With that said, Jake is getting older and sooner or later he's going to run out of chances when any perceived upside is all but gone. He'll need to dedicate himself to playing with more consistency and intensity.

 

[VanJack]

Posters make a valid point about Virtanen and the price-point. He probably gets somewhere around $3m a season on a new contract. This is more than acceptable for a forward with Jake's skill-set who can play up and down the lineup and contribute 15-20 goals a season.

For perspective, it's almost the same money they're paying Roussel, Beagle, Ferland and Baertschi; and a lot less than Eriksson and Sutter.

If the Canucks were in a normal cap situation they'd be lining up to re-sign Virtanen for that kind of money and term. But when you're carrying so many dead-weight contracts, all you can do is unload guys who have even a shred of trade value.

 

[racerjoe]

When certain accounts start saying it is time to move on from Jake, I think we know his time is up... just saying.

I personally wouldn't give up on him, he is out performing his contract. People want to pay Toffoli upwards of 5 mil to put up slightly better numbers, with top linemates, but not pay jake less than 3 mil? For the record Toffoli is better but 2 mil better?

I keep the asset that out performs his contract.

 

[MS]

When certain accounts start saying it is time to move on from Jake, I think we know his time is up... just saying.

I personally wouldn't give up on him, he is out performing his contract. People want to pay Toffoli upwards of 5 mil to put up slightly better numbers, with top linemates, but not pay jake less than 3 mil? For the record Toffoli is better but 2 mil better?

I keep the asset that out performs his contract.

It's astonishing that we're going into year 16 of a capped NHL and *still* like 75% of fans, if given a choice, would take a 50 point player making $5 million over a 45-point player making $2 million because DERP BETTER PLAYER IS BETTER. Or are gobsmacked when TB trades seemingly a huge package for Blake Coleman, not understanding that his tiny long-term contract makes him one of the best non-superstar assets in the NHL.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

just dreaming out loud here

what would the 2020 equivalent of kron + sandlak for craven be?

fill in the blank: motte + virtanen for _____?

 

[IslandBeast]

The question isn't did jake score 20 and 20 this year, the question is can he do it again? and again? and again? We're in a win now type of mode so can we hang on to any player that MIGHT show up to camp in shape, that might play physical and with energy, someone who might score 20 again? Is a 20 goal scorer who does next to nothing else really that important, even at 3 mil? Considering we are "up against it". I know the hit totals are quite good, we need bodies like him that throw the weight around but I have a hard time remembering any actual momentum changing or punishing checks, they are all off screen away from the play it seems. He doesn't kill penalties, which by the way needs to put an end to the "he's good defensively" narrative because if he was, with that skating skill set he would be killing penalties but he doesn't and he's not.

What if he shows up as fat Jake again, scores 13g and 15a, continues to not kill penalties and uses his engergy/physicality sparingly? At 3m? still a success?

 

[MS]

The question isn't did jake score 20 and 20 this year, the question is can he do it again? and again? and again? We're in a win now type of mode so can we hang on to any player that MIGHT show up to camp in shape, that might play physical and with energy, someone who might score 20 again? Is a 20 goal scorer who does next to nothing else really that important, even at 3 mil? Considering we are "up against it". I know the hit totals are quite good, we need bodies like him that throw the weight around but I have a hard time remembering any actual momentum changing or punishing checks, they are all off screen away from the play it seems. He doesn't kill penalties, which by the way needs to put an end to the "he's good defensively" narrative because if he was, with that skating skill set he would be killing penalties but he doesn't and he's not.

What if he shows up as fat Jake again, scores 13g and 15a, continues to not kill penalties and uses his engergy/physicality sparingly? At 3m? still a success?

On a short-term deal, if Virtanen comes back and scores 25-30 points as an 'ok' middle-6 forward on a $3 million deal ... that's a really mild downside. That's still pretty average value. It might not be a 'success' but it isn't really a 'failure' either.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

The question isn't did jake score 20 and 20 this year, the question is can he do it again? and again? and again? We're in a win now type of mode so can we hang on to any player that MIGHT show up to camp in shape, that might play physical and with energy, someone who might score 20 again? Is a 20 goal scorer who does next to nothing else really that important, even at 3 mil? Considering we are "up against it". I know the hit totals are quite good, we need bodies like him that throw the weight around but I have a hard time remembering any actual momentum changing or punishing checks, they are all off screen away from the play it seems. He doesn't kill penalties, which by the way needs to put an end to the "he's good defensively" narrative because if he was, with that skating skill set he would be killing penalties but he doesn't and he's not.

What if he shows up as fat Jake again, scores 13g and 15a, continues to not kill penalties and uses his engergy/physicality sparingly? At 3m? still a success?

Well his stats had improved each of the last 3 seasons, and he is only 24, and hasn't received prime ice time, so there is no reason to believe he can't improve, let alone maintain, his offensive contributions. Also hits doesn't all have to be Torres-on-Seabrook type to be effective, any body contract will make a difference over a 7 games series. Aside from Jake and Motte, which Canucks forward actually made a consistent attempt to throw a hit in this playoff? Roussel makes attempts but is too slow getting there so all he is hitting is the board. Jake's speed creates turnovers and pushes the D back, those are also important to game play. In my mind he certainly did enough to warrant an extension.
Having said that, I'm not giving him more than 2 years. If he wants $3M, fine. But he needs to be kept on short term contract to keep him motivated. And if he does show up fat again, cut him after his next contract. But imagine what a in-shape Virtanen can do if a fat Jake is still scoring at a better than 20-20 pace!

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

As his career has progressed, I think we’ve seen where his priorities really lie.

He seems to love what playing professional hockey brings him (ex. money, fame, women) but not professional hockey itself. Almost like he uses it as a tool to get what he wants out of life, but he doesn’t have the desire to actually improve his game past the point of scoring 15-20 goals a season and making millions per to do so (and frankly, this speaks volumes about how much pro athletes are paid).

If he was smart with his money, he could retire right now having made more money in a 6 year career than most working people will make in a lifetime.

 

[David71]

As his career has progressed, I think we’ve seen where his priorities really lie.

He seems to love what playing professional hockey brings him (ex. money, fame, women) but not professional hockey itself. Almost like he uses it as a tool to get what he wants out of life, but he doesn’t have the desire to actually improve his game past the point of scoring 15-20 goals a season and making millions per to do so (and frankly, this speaks volumes about how much pro athletes are paid).

If he was smart with his money, he could retire right now having made more money in a 6 year career than most working people will make in a lifetime.

exactly . i think coaches and teammates are fed up with him. 3 strikes your out. its really time to move on from jake. you see flashes here and there but he just doesn't do it enough to really solidify his spot in the lineup. hes done.

 

[HockeyNightInAsia]

If you expect Virtanen getting only about 1.6m in arbitration you may be in for quite a surprise. I would reckon it could be closer to double that amount.

Yes, I am repeating myself in another thread, but I see too much basis of the debate resting on Virtanen on a 2.5 mil deal, which is quite far from the likely truth of around 3.25 given arbitration. And at 3.25, yes, I would be on board with the idea of at most short-term deals to motivate him.

 

[JAK]

Addition by subtraction.

Let the rest of the players know, it doesn't matter who you are or where you are drafted. Give 110% for a shot at the cup, or get out.

 

[lawrence]

It’s quite hilarious, jakes scores 18 g and 18 assist on pace for a little over 40 points, he fits the profile of a bottom 6 winger who has speed size and some shooting abilities, yet we are going crazy over him mean while islanders don’t even care anymore that mike dal cole has turned into nothing and Sam Bennett’s continues to trend downwards.

 

[IslandBeast]

Well his stats had improved each of the last 3 seasons, and he is only 24, and hasn't received prime ice time, so there is no reason to believe he can't improve, let alone maintain, his offensive contributions. Also hits doesn't all have to be Torres-on-Seabrook type to be effective, any body contract will make a difference over a 7 games series. Aside from Jake and Motte, which Canucks forward actually made a consistent attempt to throw a hit in this playoff? Roussel makes attempts but is too slow getting there so all he is hitting is the board. Jake's speed creates turnovers and pushes the D back, those are also important to game play. In my mind he certainly did enough to warrant an extension.
Having said that, I'm not giving him more than 2 years. If he wants $3M, fine. But he needs to be kept on short term contract to keep him motivated. And if he does show up fat again, cut him after his next contract. But imagine what a in-shape Virtanen can do if a fat Jake is still scoring at a better than 20-20 pace!

Just over 2 hits per game in the playoffs, he barely outhit Jay friggin Beagle and he got dusted by Roussel in the hit department. He kills cycles, he rings it around the boards to nobody, he takes bad penalties, he doesn't kill penalties and he just doesn't move his god damn feet.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Just over 2 hits per game in the playoffs, he barely outhit Jay friggin Beagle and he got dusted by Roussel in the hit department. He kills cycles, he rings it around the boards to nobody, he takes bad penalties, he doesn't kill penalties and he just doesn't move his god damn feet.

I haven't checked but for most of the games I don't think Jake gets much more than 10 minutes a game. He's not Eric Lindros, or even Reaves, in that he's not wired to go out there and throw a big thunderous hit every shift. What he is, is a bigger than average body with speed that can play the body, but his main purpose is to create offense (or specifically, score goals). He is not an expert in cycling the puck, nor is he a great passer, nor does he have the highest IceQ, those are all highlighted in his draft year which is why he was, in my opinion, picked too high.
Say we do get rid of Jake, who do you replace him with? Ideally you want somebody that can provide some secondary offense, hopefully around 20 goals and 40 pts, without #1 PP time. Maybe somebody that can bring some speed and some size and a decent shot, seeing as our bottom 6 is lacking in those departments. Somebody that is young-ish and doesn't break the bank? Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what Virtanen is! Why get rid of one just to bring in another, potentially at a higher asset cost?

 

[Smokey McCanucks]

Virtanen had his best season as a pro this season, looked really good all regular season, producing on offense and not so much of a liability on defence either. It would be a mistake to read too much into the playoffs where he is concerned because he didn't even start coming out of camp for whatever reason (maybe there's something there but I don't want to speculate out if hand) and then he was on the bottom line most of the time.

You can't be expecting a guy to come back and produce like he was in a different role with different linemates and less ice time. He fits well on that line I think because Beagle and Motte bring more of a checking/energy/pk role and Virtanen adds some physicality and offensive threat to that line, but if he's playing there the expectations in terms of production need to be tempered for sure.

To say he should be traded or his season is disappointing based on that is mistaken, recency bias based on an unusual scenario and coaching decisions, and I think the criticism from management is done with an eye to upcoming arbitration and not an honest assessment of Virtanen's play over the course of the whole season, he's a talented player who has a skill set we would have to start looking for again as soon as he was out the door.

 

[IslandBeast]

I haven't checked but for most of the games I don't think Jake gets much more than 10 minutes a game. He's not Eric Lindros, or even Reaves, in that he's not wired to go out there and throw a big thunderous hit every shift. What he is, is a bigger than average body with speed that can play the body, but his main purpose is to create offense (or specifically, score goals). He is not an expert in cycling the puck, nor is he a great passer, nor does he have the highest IceQ, those are all highlighted in his draft year which is why he was, in my opinion, picked too high.
Say we do get rid of Jake, who do you replace him with? Ideally you want somebody that can provide some secondary offense, hopefully around 20 goals and 40 pts, without #1 PP time. Maybe somebody that can bring some speed and some size and a decent shot, seeing as our bottom 6 is lacking in those departments. Somebody that is young-ish and doesn't break the bank? Well guess what, that is EXACTLY what Virtanen is! Why get rid of one just to bring in another, potentially at a higher asset cost?

Honest question, who do you think was more impactful during this playoff run? Roussel or Virtanen?

I don't give a rats ass about how many times he busts down the wing, head down full speed and throws a lucky wrap around off the goalies foot and in during the regular season, I care about the fact that Antoine Roussel played 7:40 a night and made a bigger impact than Jake did in the playoffs.

Replace him with MacEwen, sign a plug, do whatever. He doesn't put in the effort, I don't care how naturally powerful or skilled he is, you can't have passengers if you plan to go on a deep run.

 

[I am toxic]

Jake is an NHL forward. Health permitting, he's going to continue enjoying an NHL career. He's only a bust considering that there were better forwards in consideration for the #6 spot that have turned out to be better from the start. Otherwise, if he's a 20-40 guy that's pretty good production for a middle 6 forward.

With that said, the Canucks have been talking about compete and have not been patient with players that the team perceives as not doing everything they can to get better. Kassian and Hutton were let go in part because they didn't work hard enough in the offseason to be in the best shape they can be. Before then, Hodgson was let go because he was viewed as a high maintenance player by management. Right or wrong, what the Canucks are trying to build is a team that competes every night. The Canucks were, for many years, led by the Sedins who were known for their conditioning. They are always one of the best conditioned athletes on the team. Petey came into camp blowing everyone away at the bag skate.

With that said, players do mature. JT Miller in his early years didn't come to camp in shape. It looks like Hutton has been showing up to camp in better shape that we previously saw him. Kassian turned his life around. Virtanen, when he was in Utica, went back to the rink when the lights were off to work out. With that said, Jake is getting older and sooner or later he's going to run out of chances when any perceived upside is all but gone. He'll need to dedicate himself to playing with more consistency and intensity.

Who hacked F A N's account?

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Benning laying it on Virtanen again today on TSN1040.

 

[timw33]

Benning laying it on Virtanen again today on TSN1040.

Absolutely bizarre to keep focusing in on Virtanen not meeting his own completely unreasonable expectations and doubling down on denigrating the value of his own asset...