Player Discussion Jake Virtanen, Pt. XXII: 'Tis no man — 'tis a relentless redemption machine

[I am toxic]

It's astonishing that we're going into year 16 of a capped NHL and *still* like 75% of fans, if given a choice, would take a 50 point player making $5 million over a 45-point player making $2 million because DERP BETTER PLAYER IS BETTER. Or are gobsmacked when TB trades seemingly a huge package for Blake Coleman, not understanding that his tiny long-term contract makes him one of the best non-superstar assets in the NHL.

I have an older brother who is very very intelligent, but he simply cannot grasp the concept of opportunity cost. The rationalizations to ignore it are mind-bottling.

 

[I am toxic]

Addition by subtraction.

Let the rest of the players know, it doesn't matter who you are or where you are drafted. Give 110% for a shot at the cup, or get out.

Or get 6x6 and coddled and played with Bo even after publicly criticizing the coach.

Subtraction by addition.

 

[VanJack]

Absolutely bizarre to keep focusing in on Virtanen not meeting his own completely unreasonable expectations and doubling down on denigrating the value of his own asset...

Exactly. Jake is coming off his best season as a pro.

Granted he disappeared at times in the playoffs, but collectively the Canucks were shut-out in three of the seven games against Vegas. So he wasn't alone. For perspective, Louie Eriksson is making six times as much, and couldn't even get out of the pressbox. And to my knowledge, Jimbo never mentioned him once as a 'playoff disappointment'.

But if Benning is determined to trade Virttanen--why would you devalue the asset by calling him out in the post-season presser? You'd like to think there's some sort of 'ulterior motive' here. But with this GM it might be just plain foolishness.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Honest question, who do you think was more impactful during this playoff run? Roussel or Virtanen?

I don't give a rats ass about how many times he busts down the wing, head down full speed and throws a lucky wrap around off the goalies foot and in during the regular season, I care about the fact that Antoine Roussel played 7:40 a night and made a bigger impact than Jake did in the playoffs.

Replace him with MacEwen, sign a plug, do whatever. He doesn't put in the effort, I don't care how naturally powerful or skilled he is, you can't have passengers if you plan to go on a deep run.

During the playoff run I felt both are nearly the same in terms of impact. Roussel scored a huge goal in the Minny series, but other than that his most memorable moments were all negatives from the Vegas series (chirping but can't back it up, getting repeatedly destroyed by hits, run away from Reaves, and everytime he tries to throw a hit he is a second too late and just smack the boards himself. I like his intention but I really felt all he did was rile up the Knights).
Virtanen didn't have that "wow" moment like the Roussel goal in Minny, but he also didn't create momentum for the other team.

You replace him with MacEwen or somebody like him, and you instantly destroy any secondary scoring from the bottom 6. Aside from Gaudette, nobody there can pass the puck, so whoever plays there has to be able to create goals all by himself. You might get more effort, but you are extremely unlikely to get more result. So its a matter of preference, do you want somebody who tries hard but can't get things done, or do you want somebody who gets result but appears "fat"?

 

[MS]

As his career has progressed, I think we’ve seen where his priorities really lie.

He seems to love what playing professional hockey brings him (ex. money, fame, women) but not professional hockey itself. Almost like he uses it as a tool to get what he wants out of life, but he doesn’t have the desire to actually improve his game past the point of scoring 15-20 goals a season and making millions per to do so (and frankly, this speaks volumes about how much pro athletes are paid).

If he was smart with his money, he could retire right now having made more money in a 6 year career than most working people will make in a lifetime.

This isn't really fair.

He's improved A TON over the past 3-4 years, from a guy who struggled to score in the AHL in 16-17 to a bottom-6 NHL forward for a couple years to a guy who scored a at 22-22-44 pace last year and was a legit quality middle-6 forward. This isn't the profile at all of guys like Gilbert Brule or Nikita Filatov who actually didn't put in any effort into improving. His defensive play in particular has improved by leaps and bounds and he's gone from a guy cluelessly standing still without the puck as a junior player to a guy who can play on high-leverage defensive lines as a pro.

Absolutely bizarre to keep focusing in on Virtanen not meeting his own completely unreasonable expectations and doubling down on denigrating the value of his own asset...

It's one of the weirder things I've ever seen Benning do, and that's saying something.

Like, if he'd given Virtanen a $5 million contract like Tuch's last summer and then Tuch outplayed Virtanen ... fair enough! But raking your $1.25 million guy over the coals because he wasn't as dynamic as their $5 million guy?

I have an older brother who is very very intelligent, but he simply cannot grasp the concept of opportunity cost. The rationalizations to ignore it are mind-bottling.

Yeah, I know people like that, too. And obviously there are heaps of posters here. It's really strange and it really isn't that hard of a concept, you wouldn't think.

But if you argue that it's smarter to put Gaudette in the Toffoli roster spot for $1.5 million and spend $4 million elsewhere than it is to spend $5.5 million on Toffoli to be slightly better than Gaudette, all you get is YA BUT TOFFOLI IS A BIT BETTER AND MIGHT SCORE 5 MORE POINTS type responses.

Like, if Tyler Myers last summer had 3 years remaining on a deal that paid him $700k/year and Benning traded a #1 pick for Myers ... that's a great deal! If Gaunce or Biega made $4 million, I would have been tearing them to shreds and wanted them the hell off the roster. People simply cannot grasp that what you're looking at in a capped league is value relative to contract.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Benning laying it on Virtanen again today on TSN1040.

Funny how Tuch is so highly regarded after running over the Canucks in ONE playoff series, reminds me of the Ferland-effect from 2015.
But as much as Tuch is worshipped by Benning nowadays, his regular season was actually quite a bit behind Jake. This season Tuch has a stat line of 8 goals, 9 assists, 17 pts in 42 games. Virtanen has more GOALS than Tuch has in POINTS! Yet it appears our GM and half the fanbase can't wait to get rid of Virtanen because in a 7 games series Tuch was better. Makes me scratch my head.
To be honest I have never been much of a fan for Virtanen, so it feels weird that I'm "defending" him. But you can't let one 20 games stretch overshadow a 3 years progression. Fact is Jake has gotten better each of the last 3 season. Weren't posters here always telling us how "power forward takes time to develop"? Well he is developing and now you want to dump him for MacEwen? I don't get it!

 

[MS]

Funny how Tuch is so highly regarded after running over the Canucks in ONE playoff series, reminds me of the Ferland-effect from 2015.
But as much as Tuch is worshipped by Benning nowadays, his regular season was actually quite a bit behind Jake. This season Tuch has a stat line of 8 goals, 9 assists, 17 pts in 42 games. Virtanen has more GOALS than Tuch has in POINTS! Yet it appears our GM and half the fanbase can't wait to get rid of Virtanen because in a 7 games series Tuch was better. Makes me scratch my head.
To be honest I have never been much of a fan for Virtanen, so it feels weird that I'm "defending" him. But you can't let one 20 games stretch overshadow a 3 years progression. Fact is Jake has gotten better each of the last 3 season. Weren't posters here always telling us how "power forward takes time to develop"? Well he is developing and now you want to dump him for MacEwen? I don't get it!

I'm the same. I've been mostly critical of the player and the pick for 6 years now.

But, even if he never lives up to his draft position, he's FINALLY become a useful player who provides pretty good value for his contract (and will likely continue to on a new contract) and this is the point where everyone turns on him and wants him gone? Really?

Who the f*** cares if he isn't Alex Tuch? If he can score 15-20 goals from your 2nd/3rd line for $2.5 million next year, we should be pretty damned happy with that result.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Funny how Tuch is so highly regarded after running over the Canucks in ONE playoff series, reminds me of the Ferland-effect from 2015.
But as much as Tuch is worshipped by Benning nowadays, his regular season was actually quite a bit behind Jake. This season Tuch has a stat line of 8 goals, 9 assists, 17 pts in 42 games. Virtanen has more GOALS than Tuch has in POINTS! Yet it appears our GM and half the fanbase can't wait to get rid of Virtanen because in a 7 games series Tuch was better. Makes me scratch my head.
To be honest I have never been much of a fan for Virtanen, so it feels weird that I'm "defending" him. But you can't let one 20 games stretch overshadow a 3 years progression. Fact is Jake has gotten better each of the last 3 season. Weren't posters here always telling us how "power forward takes time to develop"? Well he is developing and now you want to dump him for MacEwen? I don't get it!

Tuch has 52 pts in the previous season just saying
Also Virtanen continuously to show how much he lacks of hockey IQ especially in the playoff

 

[VanJack]

To understand this debate, I guess you have to try to separate the 'statistics' from the 'individual player'. 'Statistically', Virtanen had something of a breakthrough season. On his best nights, she showed he can really help this team.

But when he showed up in bubble clearly out of shape again and in the coach's doghouse, that may have sealed his fate as a Canuck. And it's also pretty obvious that other guys on this team were 'irritated' with him as well.

The 'optimists' still put it down to the 'maturity factor'. But at 24, he probably is what he is.

My only fear is that Jimbo has a nasty habit of turning this kind of asset into another 'character guy' who's 'good in the dressing-room' but can't play.

 

[joelCAMEL]

It's astonishing... gobsmacked when TB trades seemingly a huge package for Blake Coleman, not understanding that his tiny long-term contract makes him one of the best non-superstar assets in the NHL.

This year, Tampa trades a 19 year old, former first round pick and a 2020 first round pick for Coleman, who is a UFA after next season. You consider that to be a long term contract?

It is ironic that the the 2020 pick is Vancouver's, used in the JT Miller trade. So, you would rather trade that pick for 2 seasons of Blake Coleman at $1.8 mill per year, instead of 3 seasons of JT Miller at $5.3 mill per year?

 

[Fatass]

Tuch has 52 pts in the previous season just saying
Also Virtanen continuously to show how much he lacks of hockey IQ especially in the playoff

And does Tuch come to camp overweight and unfit, or is he a mature professional on and off the ice?

 

[Hyzer]

This year, Tampa trades a 19 year old, former first round pick and a 2020 first round pick for Coleman, who is a UFA after next season. You consider that to be a long term contract?

It is ironic that the the 2020 pick is Vancouver's, used in the JT Miller trade. So, you would rather trade that pick for 2 seasons of Blake Coleman at $1.8 mill per year, instead of 3 seasons of JT Miller at $5.3 mill per year?

I'm pretty sure MS was alluding that he was signed for awhile before Tampa got him, and that because of the efficiency of the contracts in regards to results per dollar spent, he is correct in that it is one of the best contracts in the league. I'd also put MacKinnon up there as well for top value contract.

You can't win in a cap world without efficient contracts. Jakes contract is efficient for what it costs - so bring him back please.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

And does Tuch come to camp overweight and unfit, or is he a mature professional on and off the ice?

Does a Tuch post a vid of him partying in a club during a pandemic ?

 

[joelCAMEL]

I'm pretty sure MS was alluding that he was signed for awhile before Tampa got him, and that because of the efficiency of the contracts in regards to results per dollar spent, he is correct in that it is one of the best contracts in the league. I'd also put MacKinnon up there as well for top value contract.

You can't win in a cap world without efficient contracts. Jakes contract is efficient for what it costs - so bring him back please.

I am unsure what MS was alluding to. Coleman signed his latest contract on July 18, 2018 so, Tampa gains one of the best contracts in the league, for 1.5 seasons in exchange for 2 first round picks.

If Jake is traded, then at least the GM and coach are in agreement. Too many times, a GM acquires a player and the coach does not utilize him efficiently.

Devils agree to terms with forward Blake Coleman on a three-year contract

 

[F A N]

It's astonishing that we're going into year 16 of a capped NHL and *still* like 75% of fans, if given a choice, would take a 50 point player making $5 million over a 45-point player making $2 million because DERP BETTER PLAYER IS BETTER.

That's just a whole lot of generalizing. Are we talking about a 30 goal 50 point player and a 21 goal 45 point player?

Is Petey's point production twice that of Horvat? No. 1.5 x that of Horvat's? No. So he shouldn't make too much more than Horvat right?

A team with a young core where team success isn't judged by whether they win a Cup over the next two seasons would reasonably see less value in say a 21 goal 45 point player with two years left on his $2M AAV contract than say a 30 goal 50 point player making $5M with 4 or more years of team control left.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

24 years old and he still needs to mature?
Most players are entering their most productive years at this point. I wouldn’t be adverse to shopping him and seeing if we could land a young D or a decent draft pick as we have no first or second. His playoff performance was pretty underwhelming and he should have been highly motivated given the fact he once again had fitness issues coming into camp. The fact that some other players also under performed doesn’t change that imo.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Tuch has 52 pts in the previous season just saying
Also Virtanen continuously to show how much he lacks of hockey IQ especially in the playoff

And that is why Tuch will be making close to $5m/year for the next 6 seasons, while Jake will likely make about 60% of that on a short term deal. I'm just saying, I see a lot of people dumping on Jake and our own GM is comparing him to Tuch, but if you look at Tuch's season and post season, vs Jake's season and post season, it appears that Jake has been more productive on a bigger sample size.
Anyways, I'm not oppose to trading Jake for an upgrade, especially if its to fill a hole on RSD if we don't bring Tanev or Stecher back. I am however, oppose to just dumping him for a mid round pick because he was a little out of shape to camp and couldn't match Tuch in one 7 games series. Jake arguably provided more utility to this team than his cap hit, how many player on this roster can make that claim? EP, Hughes, Bo, Miller, Markstrom, Demko and maybe Boeser/Gaudette? That's it! We need MORE guys like Virtanen on this team, not less.

 

[Peen]

Is Petey's point production twice that of Horvat? No. 1.5 x that of Horvat's? No. So he shouldn't make too much more than Horvat right?

If this is your actual response to what he's saying, then you've completely missed the point.

 

[Fatass]

Does a Tuch post a vid of him partying in a club during a pandemic ?

Did any player other than Jake? Did any player post a video driving their car, while making a video of themselves driving their car?
Jake clearly needs to grow up. He needs to be committed to being a full time professional.

 

[Canuck Luck]

Tuch has 52 pts in the previous season just saying
Also Virtanen continuously to show how much he lacks of hockey IQ especially in the playoff

Tuch also makes 4.75M and Virtanen is in line for what half that at most?

So wheres the hate on Sutter by our GM when his counterpart would be MaxPac? Patches was drafted 11 spots later makes less than double what Sutter makes. Similar size to boot (whereas Tuch is a lot bigger than Virtanen). Or do we just put ridiculously outlandish expectations on Jake only?

 

[JAK]

What does it say to the rest of the team, when you come into camp out of shape, and the team gives you a raise?

 

[IslandBeast]

During the playoff run I felt both are nearly the same in terms of impact. Roussel scored a huge goal in the Minny series, but other than that his most memorable moments were all negatives from the Vegas series (chirping but can't back it up, getting repeatedly destroyed by hits, run away from Reaves, and everytime he tries to throw a hit he is a second too late and just smack the boards himself. I like his intention but I really felt all he did was rile up the Knights).
Virtanen didn't have that "wow" moment like the Roussel goal in Minny, but he also didn't create momentum for the other team.

You replace him with MacEwen or somebody like him, and you instantly destroy any secondary scoring from the bottom 6. Aside from Gaudette, nobody there can pass the puck, so whoever plays there has to be able to create goals all by himself. You might get more effort, but you are extremely unlikely to get more result. So its a matter of preference, do you want somebody who tries hard but can't get things done, or do you want somebody who gets result but appears "fat"?

Easy, you take the guy who works hard. Motte>Jake every damn time

Your first line tells me all I need to know. He was just as impactful as Antoine Roussel who I agree with was pretty useless, he also played significantly less than Jake. I also agree that they had the same impact. That's who we are relying on? The Antoine Roussel comparable middle 6 sniper? He doesn't just appear fat, man he doesn't move his god damn legs, he stands around, he throws the puck away not to mention he's a distraction to the rest of the team half the time.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Easy, you take the guy who works hard. Motte>Jake every damn time

Your first line tells me all I need to know. He was just as impactful as Antoine Roussel who I agree with was pretty useless, he also played significantly less than Jake. I also agree that they had the same impact. That's who we are relying on? The Antoine Roussel comparable middle 6 sniper? He doesn't just appear fat, man he doesn't move his god damn legs, he stands around, he throws the puck away not to mention he's a distraction to the rest of the team half the time.

Ok, when you find 5 more Motte then sure boot Jake off the team. But when your bottom 6 includes Sutter Roussel MacEwan Eriksson etc, you are telling me theres no room for an 18 goal scorer?
I'm seriously not sure what you expect Jake to do playing with Beagle on the 4th line at 10mins a game. You want him to score goals there? He is put in the toughest defensive matchup, why would Green do that if he just stands around and throws the puck away? Why is Roussel and Gaudette sheltered more than Virtanen?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Tuch also makes 4.75M and Virtanen is in line for what half that at most?

So wheres the hate on Sutter by our GM when his counterpart would be MaxPac? Patches was drafted 11 spots later makes less than double what Sutter makes. Similar size to boot (whereas Tuch is a lot bigger than Virtanen). Or do we just put ridiculously outlandish expectations on Jake only?

Maybe cause Sutter at least didn’t show up to every camp out of shape and didn’t post vid of himself partying during pandemic

 

[Canuck Luck]

Maybe cause Sutter at least didn’t show up to every camp out of shape and didn’t post vid of himself partying during pandemic

Right instead he calls out his own teammates publicly to grow balls and go in the corner and dirty areas when his play doesnt entirely lead by example as he just shows up and doesnt do much in those areas himself.