Value of: Jake Guentzel

[Empoleon8771]

It does matter if Jake has Las Vegas on his no trade. We are missing to much info to be speaking in absolutes here. Again, I am open to including Hoglander, for a signed player. Vegas ain’t got cap to sign him, so ya… why would we pay some huge premium.

What indications are there that Guentzel would have Vegas on his NTC? Vegas is a terrific team in a state that has no income taxes.

I laid out the Canucks situation in the post right after that. It is abundantly clear they do not have the ammo to compete with other teams to pull off Guentzel if Hoglander is off the table. Something like Mikheyev, Hoglander, Podkolzin/Raty/Pettersson and a 2025 1st just contends with what other teams would offer. Without including Hoglander, they're not even remotely serious.

Also, where's this idea coming from that Vegas can't afford to sign Guentzel long-term? Signing Guentzel means they'd just not be able to re-sign Marchessault and Martinez, that's about it. They'd just have to promote Hague into Martinez's role.

 

[oceanchild]

What indications are there that Guentzel would have Vegas on his NTC? Vegas is a terrific team in a state that has no income taxes.

I laid out the Canucks situation in the post right after that. It is abundantly clear they do not have the ammo to compete with other teams to pull off Guentzel if Hoglander is off the table. Something like Mikheyev, Hoglander, Podkolzin/Raty/Pettersson and a 2025 1st just contends with what other teams would offer. Without including Hoglander, they're not even remotely serious.

Again for lkke the fourth time, IN CAPS….. I HAVE NO ISSUE WIRH INCLUDING HOGLANDER!!!!!! Jake would need to be Re-signed. Why would we pay a huge extra for that when no other team that I am aware of has the cap to re-sign him right now.

What indications do you have they they don’t. I’m saying no one has enough information to make said assumptions and then start talking about returns in the absolute.

 

[Cake Eater]

They want prospects over picks, wings have a ton of prospects. Make It happen Stevie

Absolutely not. Does not make Detroit a contender and his next contract will be regrettable. Stevie has been patient through this rebuild, no reason to throw it all away.

 

[David71]

No way they include Lekk IMO. I get what your saying, but he also had a no trade clause of 12 teams and can make it tough.

He knows the management and coach in Vancouver and probably would like the idea of playing with Petey.

I’m guessing he is a Canuck before the end of the week and that the Canucks are trying hard not to include Hogs.

probably mik+lek+1st 2025 for a signed guenztel

 

[Ulf5]

It does matter if Jake has Las Vegas on his no trade. We are missing to much info to be speaking in absolutes here. Again, I am open to including Hoglander, for a signed player. Vegas ain’t got cap to sign him, so ya… why would we pay some huge premium.

I believe no-trade lists are turned in at the beginning of the league year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Again for lkke the fourth time, IN CAPS….. I HAVE NO ISSUE WIRH INCLUDING HOGLANDER!!!!!! Jake would need to be Re-signed. Why would we pay a huge extra for that when no other team that I am aware of has the cap to re-sign him right now.

What indications do you have they they don’t. I’m saying no one has enough information to make said assumptions and then start talking about returns in the absolute.

Which, again, would be out-bid. That's the thing you seemingly can't understand here.

This is not about "I want an overpayment for Guentzel". It's simply looking at the Canucks situation and realizing that they simply do not have the ammo to get Guentzel if they're going to try to play hard ball with the Penguins. The Penguins will pivot to teams with earlier draft picks and/or better prospects to offer if the Canucks try to be cheap.

probably mik+lek+1st 2025 for a signed guenztel

This is exactly what I'd expect for a signed Guentzel, outside of maybe swapping the 2025 1st for a conditional 2025 2nd that can become a 1st if the Canucks go on a deep run or something.

 

[David71]

2025 1st, D-Petey, Raty, 2026 2nd for Guentzel.

or a conditional first if van makes to wcf?

 

[oceanchild]

I believe no-trade lists are turned in at the beginning of the league year.

They can be, sometimes teams don’t ask and then request them later. It all seems surprisingly informal, which is how the mixup happened that lead to Ottawa losing a first.

Like, I don’t even know if the Pens know who’s on his list (I assume they do but have not seen it reported) and look at what Hanifin is doing in Calgary.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Absolutely not. Does not make Detroit a contender and his next contract will be regrettable. Stevie has been patient through this rebuild, no reason to throw it all away.

?

 

[Peter Griffin]

None of these players would amount to much in Pittsburgh. We'd need a bluechip like Lekkerimaki or a very solid young guy (Think better than Hoglander) to start discussion.

This offer is bad because it's just so clearly 3 pieces that are not crucial to Vancouver at all, and while in total they may add up to a certain value, that value to the Pens is so low lol.

If you trade Guentzel, you're going to lose that trade 90% of the time. So, Pens need a real piece coming back. Think Sharangovich for Toffoli trade from last year. But better than that.

You don’t think Hoglander scoring at a 20+ ESG pace from the 4th line isn’t a “real piece” for a rental? I beg to differ there. Maybe the rest of the offer needs a tweak, but I don’t see Pittsburgh getting back a much better piece than that regarding young NHL’ers.

 

[oceanchild]

Which, again, would be out-bid. That's the thing you seemingly can't understand here.

This is not about "I want an overpayment for Guentzel". It's simply looking at the Canucks situation and realizing that they simply do not have the ammo to get Guentzel if they're going to try to play hard ball with the Penguins. The Penguins will pivot to teams with earlier draft picks and/or better prospects to offer if the Canucks try to be cheap.



This is exactly what I'd expect for a signed Guentzel, outside of maybe swapping the 2025 1st for a conditional 2025 2nd that can become a 1st if the Canucks go on a deep run or something.

You are now shifting the goal posts, you’re saying I don’t understand when you kept going on about Hoglander. Like FFS pal, at least be honest in the conversation here and don’t try and deflect. If the cost is Lekk, I would rather they walk away. Like you, I have no control in this matter and the value in prospects (more so than picks) is subjective to the team and scouts looking at them. So even with that, I have no idea how Pittsburg would value the various options. I have no interest in trading Lekk.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You are now shifting the goal posts, you’re saying I don’t understand when you kept going on about Hoglander. Like FFS pal, at least be honest in the conversation here and don’t try and deflect. If the cost is Lekk, I would rather they walk away. Like you, I have no control in this matter and the value in prospects (more so than picks) is subjective to the team and scouts looking at them. So even with that, I have no idea how Pittsburg would value the various options. I have no interest in trading Lekk.

I'm not shifting the goal posts, I've been saying the same exact thing for the last 5 posts.

Here's the reality: the Canucks are bidding against other teams. If Hoglander is not on the table for a rental Guentzel, teams have more attractive assets than the Canucks. If Lekkerimaki is not on the table for an extended Guentzel, teams have more attractive assets than the Canucks. That's the reality here.

Vegas would likely be willing to trade Brisson for a rental Guentzel. Florida will probably be willing to trade one of Devine or Samoskevich for a rental Guentzel, probably Devine if I had to guess. Carolina would probably be willing to trade Nadeau for a rental Guentzel. What's Vancouver offering up that matches that? Hoglander would match that, but he's apparently not available for a rental.

 

[Cake Eater]

?

??

He'll be a 30 year old declining winger wanting an 8 year contract at around 8M per. Hard pass.

You don’t think Hoglander scoring at a 20+ ESG pace from the 4th line isn’t a “real piece” for a rental? I beg to differ there. Maybe the rest of the offer needs a tweak, but I don’t see Pittsburgh getting back a much better piece than that regarding young NHL’ers.

Is Daniel Sprong a "real piece"?

 

[oceanchild]

I'm not shifting the goal posts, I've been saying the same exact thing for the last 5 posts.

Here's the reality: the Canucks are bidding against other teams. If Hoglander is not on the table for a rental Guentzel, teams have more attractive assets than the Canucks. If Lekkerimaki is not on the table for an extended Guentzel, teams have more attractive assets than the Canucks. That's the reality here.

Vegas would likely be willing to trade Brisson for a rental Guentzel. Florida will probably be willing to trade one of Devine or Samoskevich for a rental Guentzel, probably Devine if I had to guess. Carolina would probably be willing to trade Nadeau for a rental Guentzel. What's Vancouver offering up that matches that?

And like I keep saying, all those teams are willing to pay for a rental because it’s the only thing they can do. A van can sign him and so is willing to pay more. They won’t then pay an additional premium on top of paying the most because he is signed. Look, if it makes sense to you to take less for a guy that is gone no matter what because when he left he didn’t have a contract, fill your boots. But, a rational player trying to acquire assets is simply looking to land the best value. Take less, that’s fine.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And like I keep saying, all those teams are willing to pay for a rental because it’s the only thing they can do. A van can sign him and so is willing to pay more. They won’t then pay an additional premium on top of paying the most because he is signed. Look, if it makes sense to you to take less for a guy that is gone no matter what because when he left he didn’t have a contract, fill your boots. But, a rational player trying to acquire assets is simply looking to land the best value. Take less, that’s fine.

And you're basing this off of nothing. Vegas, Carolina and Florida absolutely can afford to re-sign Guentzel if they want to.

Florida has $28 million in cap space and Carolina has $32 million in cap space this off-season, they have more than enough money to re-sign Guentzel. Vegas has $13 million in cap space this off-season, they can afford to re-sign Guentzel by letting Marchessault walk and promoting Hague into Martinez's role.

 

[Cake Eater]

And you're basing this off of nothing. Vegas, Carolina and Florida absolutely can afford to re-sign Guentzel if they want to.

Florida has $28 million in cap space and Carolina has $32 million in cap space this off-season, they have more than enough money to re-sign Guentzel. Vegas has $13 million in cap space this off-season, they can afford to re-sign Guentzel by letting Marchessault walk and promoting Hague into Martinez's role.

Florida can do whatever they want with just 9 skaters signed for next year lol.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Florida can do whatever they want with just 9 skaters signed for next year lol.

Yeah exactly, it's just bizarre to claim that no other teams can afford to give Guentzel an extension but Vancouver.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

??

He'll be a 30 year old declining winger wanting an 8 year contract at around 8M per. Hard pass.

Then let him walk, he’s a rental, but what his agent puts out to the media and what teams will offer him are two different things. Not too many 30 year olds want to go play on a basement team.

 

[Zbynek]

You don’t think Hoglander scoring at a 20+ ESG pace from the 4th line isn’t a “real piece” for a rental? I beg to differ there. Maybe the rest of the offer needs a tweak, but I don’t see Pittsburgh getting back a much better piece than that regarding young NHL’ers.

Hoglander is okay. It's cool he's having a breakout season on sheltered minutes and that he's scoring some goals. The reality is that "breakout season" is on pace for 35 points. If Pens trade Guentzel (biggest winger prize on the market by far) I guarantee you there's a player more special than Hoglander coming to Pittsburgh.

Your proposal is the easiest pass of the century, even for a dumbass like Dubas.

Pens are good without Unicycle boy.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Hoglander is okay. It's cool he's having a breakout season on sheltered minutes and that he's scoring some goals. The reality is that "breakout season" is on pace for 35 points. If Pens trade Guentzel (biggest winger prize on the market by far) I guarantee you there's a player more special than Hoglander coming to Pittsburgh.

Your proposal is the easiest pass of the century, even for a dumbass like Dubas.

Pens are good without Unicycle boy.

Yea I’ve softened on my desire to see the Canucks land Guentzel so it wasn’t much of a competitive offer if you can call what we’re doing here making “offers”.

 

[oceanchild]

And you're basing this off of nothing. Vegas, Carolina and Florida absolutely can afford to re-sign Guentzel if they want to.

Florida has $28 million in cap space and Carolina has $32 million in cap space this off-season, they have more than enough money to re-sign Guentzel. Vegas has $13 million in cap space this off-season, they can afford to re-sign Guentzel by letting Marchessault walk and promoting Hague into Martinez's role.

Florida has to sign two high end Dmen and Reinheart are already ham strung with only having 10 players signed. If they give Sam $8m Forsling $7m they have $13m for 13 players and you think they can work Jake at around $9m in? Carolina in the past has never spent the kind of assets you’re talking about in a rental. Vegas has $13m in cap space and needs to sign upwards of 7 players depending on how many they carry on roster. If you pay jake $9m you have $4m to sign 6 players and even if you go with a 21 man roster you will need 4 players. They would all need minimum contracts and you would have no depth.

Like, I’m done responding to you. It’s clear that between the moving goal posts and making up what teams can do.. that you just want to argue.

 

[Rowlet]

I think it would have been far more prudent for Vancouver to have blown their initial load on Guentzel rather than Lindholm.

Guentzel wasn't available on February 1st.

Also, the Canucks sorely needed a versatile C/W who's defensively responsible, right handed, and 55%+ in the faceoff circle.

 

[oceanchild]

Florida can do whatever they want with just 9 skaters signed for next year lol.

Meaning they only have $28m to sign 13 players… and they have 3 core players up for contract. Do you not understand how it works ?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Florida has to sign two high end Dmen and Reinheart are already ham strung with only having 10 players signed. If they give Sam $8m Forsling $7m they have $13m for 13 players and you think they can work Jake at around $9m in? Carolina in the past has never spent the kind of assets you’re talking about in a rental. Vegas has $13m in cap space and needs to sign upwards of 7 players depending on how many they carry on roster. If you pay jake $9m you have $4m to sign 6 players and even if you go with a 21 man roster you will need 4 players. They would all need minimum contracts and you would have no depth.

Like, I’m done responding to you. It’s clear that between the moving goal posts and making up what teams can do.. that you just want to argue.

Or maybe Reinhart doesn't want to return, so they'd want to play Guentzel in place of him? You're speculating about how Guentzel may have Vegas on his NTC, so why can't I say that?

It is painfully obvious you're just grasping at straws to justify why your shitty offer from the Canucks is actually good and won't obviously be beat by any of the other teams in on Guentzel.

 

[oceanchild]

Or maybe Reinhart doesn't want to return, so they'd want to play Guentzel in place of him? You're speculating about how Guentzel may have Vegas on his NTC, so why can't I say that?

It is painfully obvious you're just grasping at straws to justify why your shitty offer from the Canucks is actually good and won't obviously be beat by any of the other teams in on Guentzel.

Your speculating on what he wants to do and from all accounts it’s staying in Florida.

Great chat, you don’t understand the salary cap, roster construction, teams not paying a premium to turn around and walk away from the player they have that is as good or better… etc etc. I’m not grasping for straws, you just don’t seem to understand. I will go look for some adults to talk to.

In the end, we can go back and forth till the cows come home. We will know in a few days what plays out and we shall see if you get someone of Lekkerimaki in a deal for Jake or not.