Value of: Jake Guentzel

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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"If the Panthers re-sign Reinhart and Forsling, they won't be able to sign Guentzel!"
"If Guentzel has Vegas on his NTC, Vegas won't be able to trade for him!"
"If Carolina won't spend assets for a rental, they won't be trading for him!"

Wow, it's almost like all of these ifs go towards benefitting the Canucks and justifying the shitty offers that Canucks fans are trying to push in here.
 

Big Daddy Cane

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Throwing a lifeline to exasperated Pens fans here. A C-C-Canucks-Combo breaker:

Nadeau
Ponomarev
Bunting

For

Guentzel (no extension)
Joseph

Nadeau is Carolina’s latest 1st. Ponomarev is probably NHL ready, but is blocked, at least at center. Bunting is a Kyle Dubas guy that can fill out the Top 6 moving forward as the Pens do whatever it is they’re doing. Guentzel takes his minutes in Carolina.

No extension is wanted in this case. No retention necessary either with Bunting in the deal. This is just Carolina going for it. POJ is a depth LHD in the event of injury this year.
 
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Cake Eater

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Meaning they only have $28m to sign 13 players… and they have 3 core players up for contract. Do you not understand how it works ?
What? I was laughing at their cap situation. I even put lol at the end. LOL stands for laugh out loud or laughing out loud.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,434
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Redmond, WA
Throwing a lifeline to exasperated Pens fans here. A C-C-Canucks-Combo breaker:

Nadeau
Ponomarev
Bunting

For

Guentzel (no extension)
Olivier-Joseph

Nadeau is Carolina’s latest 1st. Ponomarev is probably NHL ready, but is blocked, at least at center. Bunting is a Kyle Dubas guy that can fill out the Top 6 moving forward as the Pens do whatever it is they’re doing. Guentzel takes his minutes in Carolina.

No extension is wanted in this case. No retention necessary either with Bunting in the deal. This is just Carolina going for it. POJ is a depth LHD in the event of injury this year.

I like Nadeau as a piece for Guentzel, so that would definitely be a piece I'd want. I'm not too excited with what I see from Ponomarev, though. I'd ask for Koivunen or Morrow in place. I'd also ask for a 2024 2nd, whichever would end up later.

Bunting, Nadeau, Koivunen/Morrow and a 2024 2nd for Guentzel and POJ seems reasonable to me. Although this is me assuming Bunting is nothing but a cap dump here, which may be a bad read on my end.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Looking at Carolina's cap situation, I don't think I'd agree to take back Bunting in a Guentzel deal. I think I was wrong for interpreting him as a cap dump, but I think he takes away futures value that the Penguins would want back for Guentzel. I don't want to lose any prospect/pick value on Guentzel for a player like Bunting, when those guys are super easy to acquire via free agency.

I'd be shooting for Nadeau, Koivunen/Morrow and a 2024 2nd for Guentzel at 50%. That's similar to my assumed deal with Vegas of Brisson, Dorofeyev/Korczak and a 2024 2nd for Guentzel at 50%. I think asking for a 1st on top of those two prospects from either team is likely a bit too rich.
 

SEALBound

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Guentzel wasn't available on February 1st.

Also, the Canucks sorely needed a versatile C/W who's defensively responsible, right handed, and 55%+ in the faceoff circle.

So they got Lindholm?

You don't know Jake wasn't available then. The prospects of trading him started early in the year. So it's not like the Penguins just recently changed their mind.
 

Empoleon8771

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Sample size smaller than Tage Thompson's 2022-2023 season

Since 2005-2006, there are only 9 players with a better playoff PPG than Guentzel (minimum 40 games).

He has the same playoffs points/game as Pastrnak, Malkin, Point, Kane and Ovechkin have in the playoffs over that window.
 

Big Daddy Cane

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I like Nadeau as a piece for Guentzel, so that would definitely be a piece I'd want. I'm not too excited with what I see from Ponomarev, though. I'd ask for Koivunen or Morrow in place. I'd also ask for a 2024 2nd, whichever would end up later.

Bunting, Nadeau, Koivunen/Morrow and a 2024 2nd for Guentzel and POJ seems reasonable to me. Although this is me assuming Bunting is nothing but a cap dump here, which may be a bad read on my end.

Wheeler just ranked Ponomarev ahead of Koivunen, FWIW. My thought process there was that they could give him an opportunity to play right away. March 2024. Give the fans something to watch down the stretch. Frankly, he hurts more as the Canes would have to look at a debuting Suzuki in the event of injury up the middle.

If Bunting is seen as the Kuzmenko of a deal, effectively valueless, and a Day 2 pick has to be added, so be it. Canes draft a ton. They can afford it.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Wheeler just ranked Ponomarev ahead of Koivunen, FWIW. My thought process there was that they could give him an opportunity to play right away. March 2024. Give the fans something to watch down the stretch. Frankly, he hurts more as the Canes would have to look at a debuting Suzuki in the event of injury up the middle.

If Bunting is seen as the Kuzmenko of a deal, effectively valueless, and a Day 2 pick has to be added, so be it. Canes draft a ton. They can afford it.

Yeah the Penguins absolutely wouldn't be able to get a 1st on top of that. That's something I reeled back a bit with my Vegas expectations, getting 2 good NHL ready prospects along with a 1st seemed like a really aggressive ask.

If the Penguins can get Nadeau, someone like Ponomarev, Koivunen or Morrow and a 2nd for a rental Guentzel, I think that's completely reasonable. If Bunting is just viewed as a no value cap swap, I'd have no issues taking him as well.
 
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Petes2424

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Aug 4, 2005
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Guentzel is likely the only high-end scoring forward Detroit is in on, because they have so many prospects, and that’s what Pittsburgh is after. If they don’t end up with him, it’ll be a Duclair, DeBrusk, Eberle type, or a pace changer like Brandon Tanev. Maybe someone like Zucker falls into that category. Or someone under contract, nobody expects, like Ryan Hartman.

If it’s Detroit, or anyone else for that matter, you’re not getting their Top prospects. They’re not giving you a recent 10th overall type prospect, who’s about to start his NHL career. Not for a UFA. It’ll be something along the lines of two recent 2nd Rounders, who Dubas won’t have to fully develop, who show an NHL trajectory still. So instead of spending 4-5 years hoping to develop draft picks, it’ll be closer to 2 years of actual development.

You’re likely looking at something like Shai Buium and Dylan James type prospects from Detroit. Maybe they get an Eemil Viro with a James or a Kilpinin.

It’s still going to be a crapshoot type of thing. Just a lot less of a crapshoot.. If this is where Detroit uses Berggren, then he wasn’t much in their plans, unless they fully intend to resign Guentzel, and are confident that happens.

The quality of prospects from anyone, would obviously go up, if you knew he was staying.

We see this every year on here. Fans always use the recent, known name, top prospects in their proposals. Then they spend half their deadline day, googling the prospects their team actually gets, quoting scouting reports, to finally deem it “a great trade.” They suddenly love the same prospects, they would’ve said “No” to someone proposing 3 days earlier. Happens every year..

Fact is, you lose half of your NHL hopes for prospects by the time they’re 21. Dubas is just trying to push his development process up by 2-3 years, with prospects who are still progressing towards the league after 20-21. Can’t blame him. Especially with such an empty system, and this upcoming draft not having much difference between 22nd overall, and 60th overall. A 1st round pick from Colorado this year, really isn’t much different than their 2nd round pick.

It’s much more realistic Pittsburgh ends up with prospects like Shai Buium and Dylan James. Two college kids who are starting to show how good they really can end up. Buium likely goes pro this spring/summer, James a year from now. Pens end up with two more quality kids in their funnel.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
81,434
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Redmond, WA
Guentzel is likely the only high-end scoring forward Detroit is in on, because they have so many prospects, and that’s what Pittsburgh is after. If they don’t end up with him, it’ll be a Duclair, DeBrusk, Eberle type, or a pace changer like Brandon Tanev. Maybe someone like Zucker falls into that category. Or someone under contract, nobody expects, like Ryan Hartman.

If it’s Detroit, or anyone else for that matter, you’re not getting their Top prospects. They’re not giving you a recent 10th overall type prospect, who’s about to start his NHL career. Not for a UFA. It’ll be something along the lines of two recent 2nd Rounders, who Dubas won’t have to fully develop, who show an NHL trajectory still. So instead of spending 4-5 years hoping to develop draft picks, it’ll be closer to 2 years of actual development.

You’re likely looking at something like Shai Buium and Dylan James type prospects from Detroit. Maybe they get an Eemil Viro with a James or a Kilpinin.

It’s still going to be a crapshoot type of thing. Just a lot less of a crapshoot.. If this is where Detroit uses Berggren, then he wasn’t much in their plans, unless they fully intend to resign Guentzel, and are confident that happens.

The quality of prospects from anyone, would obviously go up, if you knew he was staying.

We see this every year on here. Fans always use the recent, known name, top prospects in their proposals. Then they spend half their deadline day, googling the prospects their team actually gets, quoting scouting reports, to finally deem it “a great trade.” They suddenly love the same prospects, they would’ve said “No” to someone proposing 3 days earlier. Happens every year..

Fact is, you lose half of your NHL hopes for prospects by the time they’re 21. Dubas is just trying to push his development process up by 2-3 years, with prospects who are still progressing towards the league after 20-21. Can’t blame him. Especially with such an empty system, and this upcoming draft not having much difference between 22nd overall, and 60th overall. A 1st round pick from Colorado this year, really isn’t much different than their 2nd round pick.

It’s much more realistic Pittsburgh ends up with prospects like Shai Buium and Dylan James. Two college kids who are starting to show how good they really can end up. Buium likely goes pro this spring/summer, James a year from now. Pens end up with two more quality kids in their funnel.

What Penguins fans in here are asking for top prospects for a rental Guentzel?

The only "top prospects" being mentioned in here are in the context of Guentzel coming with an extension. The headliner prospects the Penguins will be looking at for a rental Guentzel are guys like Hoglander, Brisson and Nadeau. They're only talking about someone like Lekkerimaki if Guentzel is coming with an extension, which aligns entirely with what similar sign-and-trades have looked like for players of that level.
 
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domaug

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Guentzel is likely the only high-end scoring forward Detroit is in on, because they have so many prospects, and that’s what Pittsburgh is after. If they don’t end up with him, it’ll be a Duclair, DeBrusk, Eberle type, or a pace changer like Brandon Tanev. Maybe someone like Zucker falls into that category. Or someone under contract, nobody expects, like Ryan Hartman.

If it’s Detroit, or anyone else for that matter, you’re not getting their Top prospects. They’re not giving you a recent 10th overall type prospect, who’s about to start his NHL career. Not for a UFA. It’ll be something along the lines of two recent 2nd Rounders, who Dubas won’t have to fully develop, who show an NHL trajectory still. So instead of spending 4-5 years hoping to develop draft picks, it’ll be closer to 2 years of actual development.

You’re likely looking at something like Shai Buium and Dylan James type prospects from Detroit. Maybe they get an Eemil Viro with a James or a Kilpinin.

It’s still going to be a crapshoot type of thing. Just a lot less of a crapshoot.. If this is where Detroit uses Berggren, then he wasn’t much in their plans, unless they fully intend to resign Guentzel, and are confident that happens.

The quality of prospects from anyone, would obviously go up, if you knew he was staying.

We see this every year on here. Fans always use the recent, known name, top prospects in their proposals. Then they spend half their deadline day, googling the prospects their team actually gets, quoting scouting reports, to finally deem it “a great trade.” They suddenly love the same prospects, they would’ve said “No” to someone proposing 3 days earlier. Happens every year..

Fact is, you lose half of your NHL hopes for prospects by the time they’re 21. Dubas is just trying to push his development process up by 2-3 years, with prospects who are still progressing towards the league after 20-21. Can’t blame him. Especially with such an empty system, and this upcoming draft not having much difference between 22nd overall, and 60th overall. A 1st round pick from Colorado this year, really isn’t much different than their 2nd round pick.

It’s much more realistic Pittsburgh ends up with prospects like Shai Buium and Dylan James. Two college kids who are starting to show how good they really can end up. Buium likely goes pro this spring/summer, James a year from now. Pens end up with two more quality kids in their funnel.
in seriousness, what kind of value do you think Guentzel has if the team trading for him has confidence that he will sign long-term with them? because in this wall of text, it sounds like you're arguing that he doesn't have a lot of real value even in that situation. you spent several paragraphs trying to outline how a team's B prospects are worth a 40-goal scorer because there's an assumption that that 40-goal scorer will not re-sign with the acquiring team and the general public doesn't know everything about the prospects going Pittsburgh's way.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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If you want to know my expectation for a rental Guentzel to Red Wings trade, it would be Berggren, Buium and a 2024 1st. That's the deal I've been saying for a couple of weeks now regarding Guentzel to Detroit. I don't see what "top prospects" are being included there for a rental.

Just to be crystal clear with my rental trade expectations with Guentzel, here they are:

-Detroit: Berggren, Buium and a 2024 1st
-Vegas: Brisson, Korczak and a 2024 2nd
-Carolina: Nadeau, Koivunen and a 2024 2nd
-Vancouver: Hoglander, Raty and a 2025 1st
-Florida: Samoskevich, Sawchyn and a 2025 2nd
 
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Rowlet

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So they got Lindholm?

You don't know Jake wasn't available then. The prospects of trading him started early in the year. So it's not like the Penguins just recently changed their mind.

This is a fan forum, none of us know anything. Except for the one time Bob McKenzie signed up to call a poster an idiot.

I realize that the prospect of Guentzel being traded started at the beginning of the year, however between Rutherford and Allvin, if he was actually available, they would have made that deal then. It's much more likely that they would go after the player they know, the far better player of the two, if Pittsburgh was set on trading him at the time. We both know that Rutherford and Allvin will overpay to ensure they get their guy early, the fact that it didn't happen is fairly telling. It's much more likely that the Penguins were considering their options up until the point Guentzel got injured and the season became much more clear. I'm not saying the Penguins changed their minds this week, I'm saying that they could have not been ready to commit to selling.

The fact is, Rutherford & Allvin made the deal that was in front of them, they got a defensively responsible centre/winger, they got a 55% FO winner on both the top lines, or first and third depending on how they want to deploy them, they got much harder to play against and they were able to shed salary for next season while doing so.
 
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Habs10025

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Guentzel is one the best PO's performers in the league. Teams like Carolina and Edmonton should be all over thi

Sample size smaller than Tage Thompson's 2022-2023 season
Guentzel playoff stats 58 games 34 goals 24 assists 58 points isn't a small sample size he's been one of the best playoffs performers in the NHL
 
Last edited:

Toby Flenderson

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Jun 4, 2015
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Guentzel to Oilers, show McDavid and Drai you care about winning to keep them around.

JG @ 50% + Nedeljkovic

For

Schaefer + 2024 1st + Foegele


Heck, they could even resign him if they can somehow shed some fat (Campbell, Nurse) but I know that would be a tough task
 

Draiskull

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Oct 26, 2005
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Guentzel to Oilers, show McDavid and Drai you care about winning to keep them around.

JG @ 50% + Nedeljkovic

For

Schaefer + 2024 1st + Foegele


Heck, they could even resign him if they can somehow shed some fat (Campbell, Nurse) but I know that would be a tough task
FYI...Schaefer was traded last deadline for Ekholm..
'care about winning' doesn't start or end with Guentzle. There are plenty of other options to upgrade the roster.

Guentzle is too rich for Oilers ala how Karlsson was last year. We will let VAN or VGK take him and go after an Ekholm of forwards
 

SEALBound

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FYI...Schaefer was traded last deadline for Ekholm..
'care about winning' doesn't start or end with Guentzle. There are plenty of other options to upgrade the roster.

Guentzle is too rich for Oilers ala how Karlsson was last year. We will let VAN or VGK take him and go after an Ekholm of forwards

Enter R. Smith.
 

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