Rumor: Jake Gardiner's name 'in play'

[ACC1224]

Gardiner has been the team's best D this year and its not even close. At all.

He turns the puck over more than some because he has the puck on his stick more than our other D. Its not a hard concept to understand. Look at the players with the most giveaways each and every year, and you'll see pretty much every Norris candidate or anyone even in the conversation for the trophy.

Hes not garbage. He's a #2 on a good team, and he's on a great contract. There is no need to move him.

Its a month before the deadline. They need to create buzz. Carry on.

He's not #2 on a bad Team.

 

[mclaren55]

He turns the puck over more than some because he has the puck on his stick more than our other D. Its not a hard concept to understand. Look at the players with the most giveaways each and every year, and you'll see pretty much every Norris candidate or anyone even in the conversation for the trophy.

It is a hard concept to understand when the player in question is NOWHERE near Norris quality at this moment in time. Honestly, if he was making as many lapses defensively as he is, but was scoring at a Doughty pace, or Karlsson, do you think anyone would be complaining? The complaint is he isn't very good offensively, or defensively. Pick one and be good at it if you are a Dman.

 

[sxvnert]

If a solid offer comes along then move him otherwise keep him until the prospects bump him out.

 

[LeafsBro]

He's not #2 on a bad Team.

Maybe he meant second pairing? Cause that I agree with.

 

[Omac13]

Nick Kypreos reports that Jake Gardiner's name is 'in play' as we head into the trade deadline. I think it would be a terrible idea to trade him, he's young enough to stick around throughout the rebuild, he's been very good this season and is signed to a great long term deal.

PS: Not sure if the mods want to limit this to the trades & proposals thread, I thought this rumour was big enough to have its own thread.

Before i read all this...actually I wont, I know what everyone will say. He skates very good, good numbers, possession number etc.... we all know that about gards. However where gards lacks is down low behind the goal line and when a bigger player gets down low gards can’t get the puck. He's not a strong as rielly or Dion and he gets out muscled a lot. With that said the system the leafs play fits right into Gards style, they force teams to dump it and he is good and going back first to get the puck and get it out of the zone by either skating or moving it up ice. He is a good number 4 and is back to being the guy that we seen in the first round playoff series againts the Bruins a few years back. If you remember back that series turned around when Randy Paried Franson and Gards together , They couldn't get their forcheck going because gards keept beating them to the puck. Anyway If the return is good i would have no issues moving Gards but it would have to be for something good.

 

[Lubo]

Before i read all this...actually I wont, I know what everyone will say. He skates very good, good numbers, possession number etc.... we all know that about gards. However where gards lacks is down low behind the goal line and when a bigger player gets down low gards can’t get the puck. He's not a strong as rielly or Dion and he gets out muscled a lot. With that said the system the leafs play fits right into Gards style, they force teams to dump it and he is good and going back first to get the puck and get it out of the zone by either skating or moving it up ice. He is a good number 4 and is back to being the guy that we seen in the first round playoff series againts the Bruins a few years back. If you remember back that series turned around when Randy Paried Franson and Gards together , They couldn't get their forcheck going because gards keept beating them to the puck. Anyway If the return is good i would have no issues moving Gards but it would have to be for something good.

A pretty accurate review here.

Ultimately I don't think Gardiner meshes with what Babcock wants in a top 4 d-man. (Puck retrieval skills aside, he just gets burned in 1v1 board play too often.) Also makes the incorrect breakout pass option too often.

Pros:
Good possession, puck handler, fast, creative

Cons:
Questionable hockey IQ, not good on the boards, doesn't put up enough points to cover the negative aspects of his play, has a certain unpredictability to his game that I do not enjoy, not young enough to hope he evolves his characteristics

 

[Menzinger]

Is Babcock really known for valuing physical grinding defensemen?

He seems to really like defenders who can clear the puck from the defensive zone - something Gardiner excels at.

 

[Ducati1098VII]

Everyone except Rielly and the kids and picks are "in play"

Heard it here first

Id Say JvR, Both our goalies and Komarov are not in play aswell. The goalies would only be moved if we could bring in a goalie as their performance long term is a toss up.

If the pick is low enough this year this team can be like the 13/1 Avalanche.}
The team should see a large influx of talent into an established system. Rebuilds over.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Gardiner has been the team's best D this year and its not even close. At all.

He turns the puck over more than some because he has the puck on his stick more than our other D. Its not a hard concept to understand. Look at the players with the most giveaways each and every year, and you'll see pretty much every Norris candidate or anyone even in the conversation for the trophy.

Hes not garbage. He's a #2 on a good team, and he's on a great contract. There is no need to move him.

Its a month before the deadline. They need to create buzz. Carry on.

He's not a #2 on good teams like Chicago, Nashville (good from the blueline perspective) and a few others. Not sure who you are referring to when you say "they", but the Leafs don't need to create a "buzz" if they are keeping him.

BTW - I'm not anxious to trade him, but don't think he's in "will not be traded no matter what" category.

 

[Macallan18]

He's not a #2 on good teams like Chicago, Nashville (good from the blueline perspective) and a few others. Not sure who you are referring to when you say "they", but the Leafs don't need to create a "buzz" if they are keeping him.

BTW - I'm not anxious to trade him, but don't think he's in "will not be traded no matter what" category.

I don't think he will be traded, and may be in the not traded no matter what category. Impossible to replace.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

It is a hard concept to understand when the player in question is NOWHERE near Norris quality at this moment in time. Honestly, if he was making as many lapses defensively as he is, but was scoring at a Doughty pace, or Karlsson, do you think anyone would be complaining? The complaint is he isn't very good offensively, or defensively. Pick one and be good at it if you are a Dman.

Gardiner's shot suppression numbers are at the top end of the league. He is very good.

Who is good defensively in your eyes but not good offensively? Polak? Hate to break it to you, but Gardiner prevents more scoring chances than Polak does. Polak can't move the puck in the transition game, and because of this, he ends up shelled in his own end (hence high shot blocking and hit totals).

High shot blocking and hits does not = good defensively. All it means is you never have the puck.

Gardiner's possession stats make him a #2 D. If you're not okay with that, then fine, #3. He's had to carry dead-weight for quite some time now, between Phaneuf, Polak, etc.

 

[mclaren55]

Gardiner's shot suppression numbers are at the top end of the league. He is very good.

Who is good defensively in your eyes but not good offensively? Polak? Hate to break it to you, but Gardiner prevents more scoring chances than Polak does. Polak can't move the puck in the transition game, and because of this, he ends up shelled in his own end (hence high shot blocking and hit totals).

High shot blocking and hits does not = good defensively. All it means is you never have the puck.

Gardiner's possession stats make him a #2 D. If you're not okay with that, then fine, #3. He's had to carry dead-weight for quite some time now, between Phaneuf, Polak, etc.

Re-read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. So, the question was, do you truly believe that Gardiner is a Norris candidate this year? I think our defensive core as a whole is pretty abysmal, so don't ask me to name favourites. However, Gardiner has awesome possession numbers because he circles in his own end with the puck relentlessly. That doesn't make him a good PMD, it makes him a liability who is paralysed by decision making. Stop making it seem like Gardiner is comparable to Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, Seabrook, etc. He gets WAY less ice time (may have something to do with his awesome stats, not playing against top competition and having to do it less often?) and isn't in situations close to the other top defencemen in the league. It's crazy to see people pumping his tires when he plays, what, 17 mins a game? Maybe when Babcock utilizes him more, and I see him able to defend against 1st liners, my opinion will change.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Re-read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. So, the question was, do you truly believe that Gardiner is a Norris candidate this year? I think our defensive core as a whole is pretty abysmal, so don't ask me to name favourites. However, Gardiner has awesome possession numbers because he circles in his own end with the puck relentlessly. That doesn't make him a good PMD, it makes him a liability who is paralysed by decision making. Stop making it seem like Gardiner is comparable to Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, Seabrook, etc. He gets WAY less ice time (may have something to do with his awesome stats, not playing against top competition and having to do it less often?) and isn't in situations close to the other top defencemen in the league. It's crazy to see people pumping his tires when he plays, what, 17 mins a game? Maybe when Babcock utilizes him more, and I see him able to defend against 1st liners, my opinion will change.

I don't think you understand how possession stats are compiled.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Re-read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. So, the question was, do you truly believe that Gardiner is a Norris candidate this year? I think our defensive core as a whole is pretty abysmal, so don't ask me to name favourites. However, Gardiner has awesome possession numbers because he circles in his own end with the puck relentlessly. That doesn't make him a good PMD, it makes him a liability who is paralysed by decision making. Stop making it seem like Gardiner is comparable to Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, Seabrook, etc. He gets WAY less ice time (may have something to do with his awesome stats, not playing against top competition and having to do it less often?) and isn't in situations close to the other top defencemen in the league. It's crazy to see people pumping his tires when he plays, what, 17 mins a game? Maybe when Babcock utilizes him more, and I see him able to defend against 1st liners, my opinion will change.

What is your deal with narratives and why must you constantly spew them without clear, quantifiable evidence?

I didn't say he's a Norris trophy candidate. He doesn't need to be a Norris trophy candidate to be a great player. He doesn't need to be Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, whoever. There are very few Karlssons and Doughtys. Does that mean everyone else is worthless/not good?

Based on your belief as to why Gardiner's possession numbers are high, you don't understand possession stats. He also plays 19:30 per game, not 17.

He also plays on one of the worst teams in the league with a putrid offense. If he were on a playoff-skilled team, he'd likely produce more.

He's easily a #3. He's easily the team's best D. There are numbers to quantify this. Yes the core as a whole is pretty bad, but Gardiner is one of few brightspots on the roster right now.

He's extremely undervalued around here. There is no reason to trade Jake Gardiner.

 

[Hoverhand]

Gardiner has a high ceiling and I don't think it would be wise to trade him just yet. This is a rebuild we should not be giving up on explosive offensive defenceman so easily.

 

[Cotton]

What is your deal with narratives and why must you constantly spew them without clear, quantifiable evidence?

I didn't say he's a Norris trophy candidate. He doesn't need to be a Norris trophy candidate to be a great player. He doesn't need to be Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, whoever. There are very few Karlssons and Doughtys. Does that mean everyone else is worthless/not good?

Based on your belief as to why Gardiner's possession numbers are high, you don't understand possession stats. He also plays 19:30 per game, not 17.

He also plays on one of the worst teams in the league with a putrid offense. If he were on a playoff-skilled team, he'd likely produce more.

He's easily a #3. He's easily the team's best D. There are numbers to quantify this. Yes the core as a whole is pretty bad, but Gardiner is one of few brightspots on the roster right now.

He's extremely undervalued around here. There is no reason to trade Jake Gardiner.

Stahp.

 

[Dustin]

Yup. Doesn't make much sense trading a player from a position that we would immediately have to trade with another team to fill. Not even including the fact that he has been great this year or that he is undervalued around here.

 

[Kubus]

Let's throw him to the wolves...burn him at the stake!!!!!!!!

It doesn't make much sense to trade Gardiner right now. We have nobody that can take his spot. I mean if we get great value and the trade makes long term sense then sure we can move him. I have no problem in seeing what we might be able to get back for him...but he won't be easy for us to replace.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Stahp.

Who is better? Certainly not Phaneuf who's numbers away from Gardiner are much worse than Gardiner's away from Phaneuf.

Hunwick? Nope

Rielly? Potential is there for the future but he still struggles defensively.

So... who is it?

 

[MJ65]

No I would not trade him at this point - he is still developing and going to be a good 2nd pairing D with offensive upside

 

[Ricky Bobby]

What is your deal with narratives and why must you constantly spew them without clear, quantifiable evidence?

I didn't say he's a Norris trophy candidate. He doesn't need to be a Norris trophy candidate to be a great player. He doesn't need to be Chara, Karlsson, Doughty, whoever. There are very few Karlssons and Doughtys. Does that mean everyone else is worthless/not good?

Based on your belief as to why Gardiner's possession numbers are high, you don't understand possession stats. He also plays 19:30 per game, not 17.

He also plays on one of the worst teams in the league with a putrid offense. If he were on a playoff-skilled team, he'd likely produce more.

He's easily a #3. He's easily the team's best D. There are numbers to quantify this. Yes the core as a whole is pretty bad, but Gardiner is one of few brightspots on the roster right now.

He's extremely undervalued around here. There is no reason to trade Jake Gardiner.

Possession stats don't tell the whole story. He never kills penalties and is terrible on the PP.

Rielly is playing on his off-side unlike Gardiner. He's been forced into this because of a surplus of left D.

Rielly has also been playing against far better competition 5 on 5 with a worse partner in Hunwick with a higher number of defensive zone starts. Gardiner has gotten to play with Phaneuf who everyone loves to bash but is a heck of a lot better partner than Hunwick.

Rielly has also been killing penalties unlike Gardiner.

Gardiner has good possession stats but Rielly + Phaneuf are far better at actually creating offence when they possess the puck. Rielly also has 7 more points with almost half as much PP time.

Rielly is without a doubt a much more valuable piece than Gardiner.

Phaneuf we couldn't get anything worthwhile back for so we might as well keep him for now.

We aren't winning anything with or without Gardiner for a few seasons but he could return something worthwhile is the reason to think about trading him.

Gardiner is due to be a UFA around the time this team is destined to start turning the corner. Are we really going to want to pay Gardiner UFA wages when guys like Percy, Valiev, Dermott, Nielsen could all be ready fill his spot at a much cheaper rate.

It's a bit premature to deal Gardiner but I'm honestly more concerned that we don't win anything with him and we eventually extend him to UFA type silly money (Grabo) or lose him for nothing (Kulemin, CMac).

 

[Macallan18]

Possession stats don't tell the whole story. He never kills penalties and is terrible on the PP.

Rielly is playing on his off-side unlike Gardiner. He's been forced into this because of a surplus of left D.

Rielly has also been playing against far better competition 5 on 5 with a worse partner in Hunwick with a higher number of defensive zone starts. Gardiner has gotten to play with Phaneuf who everyone loves to bash but is a heck of a lot better partner than Hunwick.

Rielly has also been killing penalties unlike Gardiner.

Gardiner has good possession stats but Rielly + Phaneuf are far better at actually creating offence when they possess the puck. Rielly also has 7 more points with almost half as much PP time.

Rielly is without a doubt a much more valuable piece than Gardiner.

Phaneuf we couldn't get anything worthwhile back for so we might as well keep him for now.

We aren't winning anything with or without Gardiner for a few seasons but he could return something worthwhile is the reason to think about trading him.

Gardiner is due to be a UFA around the time this team is destined to start turning the corner. Are we really going to want to pay Gardiner UFA wages when guys like Percy, Valiev, Dermott, Nielsen could all be ready fill his spot at a much cheaper rate.

It's a bit premature to deal Gardiner but I'm honestly more concerned that we don't win anything with him and we eventually extend him to UFA type silly money (Grabo) or lose him for nothing (Kulemin, CMac).

Gardiner has made Phaneuf look like a decent defenceman. If we can trade Phaneuf because of it, Gardiner would deserve a medal.

 

[Dustin]

Possession stats don't tell the whole story. He never kills penalties and is terrible on the PP.

Rielly is playing on his off-side unlike Gardiner. He's been forced into this because of a surplus of left D.

Rielly has also been playing against far better competition 5 on 5 with a worse partner in Hunwick with a higher number of defensive zone starts. Gardiner has gotten to play with Phaneuf who everyone loves to bash but is a heck of a lot better partner than Hunwick.

Rielly has also been killing penalties unlike Gardiner.

Gardiner has good possession stats but Rielly + Phaneuf are far better at actually creating offence when they possess the puck. Rielly also has 7 more points with almost half as much PP time.

Rielly is without a doubt a much more valuable piece than Gardiner.

Phaneuf we couldn't get anything worthwhile back for so we might as well keep him for now.

We aren't winning anything with or without Gardiner for a few seasons but he could return something worthwhile is the reason to think about trading him.

Gardiner is due to be a UFA around the time this team is destined to start turning the corner. Are we really going to want to pay Gardiner UFA wages when guys like Percy, Valiev, Dermott, Nielsen could all be ready fill his spot at a much cheaper rate.

It's a bit premature to deal Gardiner but I'm honestly more concerned that we don't win anything with him and we eventually extend him to UFA type silly money (Grabo) or lose him for nothing (Kulemin, CMac).

This is a pretty fair comment on the reasons to trade Gardiner. That being said we are no rush to trade him at this point. We still have 2 maybe 3 years before we have to start questioning that. Hopefully he can increase his value over that time period as well.

 

[ACC1224]

Stahp.

Agreed, he's got a ways to go before he jumps ahead of Rielly and Phanuef.
With his ten cent brain, that may not be achievable. He just doesn't process the game fast enough.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Possession stats don't tell the whole story. He never kills penalties and is terrible on the PP.

Rielly is playing on his off-side unlike Gardiner. He's been forced into this because of a surplus of left D.

Rielly has also been playing against far better competition 5 on 5 with a worse partner in Hunwick with a higher number of defensive zone starts. Gardiner has gotten to play with Phaneuf who everyone loves to bash but is a heck of a lot better partner than Hunwick.

Rielly has also been killing penalties unlike Gardiner.

Gardiner has good possession stats but Rielly + Phaneuf are far better at actually creating offence when they possess the puck. Rielly also has 7 more points with almost half as much PP.

Rielly is without a doubt a much more valuable piece than Gardiner.

Phaneuf we couldn't get anything worthwhile back for so we might as well keep him for now.

We aren't winning anything with or without Gardiner for a few seasons but he could return something worthwhile is the reason to think about trading him.

Gardiner is due to be a UFA around the time this team is destined to start turning the corner. Are we really going to want to pay Gardiner UFA wages when guys like Percy, Valiev, Dermott, Nielsen could all be ready fill his spot at a much cheaper rate.

It's a bit premature to deal Gardiner but I'm honestly more concerned that we don't win anything with him and we eventually extend him to UFA type silly money (Grabo) or lose him for nothing (Kulemin, CMac).

Hunwick's career splits are slightly more favorable than Dion's, especially recently in their careers (Dion's footspeed and agility/edge-work is becoming more and more of an issue). I'm not saying Hunwick is better, but suggesting Phaneuf is a that much better of a partner than Hunwick is a stretch. At least, defensively, which believe it or not, is where Gardiner thrives. Phaneuf puts up points, but also gets a ton of PP time, and since his offensive production is almost irrelevant when debating his defensive game at evens... Gardiner doesn't have much of an easier time than Rielly.

Gardiner's Primary points/60 ranks him as a top pairing guy. Nobody is ready to fill Gardiner's spot since at 5 on 5, he's easily the best D on the team. Its actually not even close by the metrics. That includes QoC, QoT, etc (which are actually not as useful of stats as you might think, but i'll use them regardless, just for arguments sake. Over the long-term, those numbers have less and less of an effect). His REL numbers are fantastic, as they should be, playing on this defensive unit. His relative numbers suggest the gap between he and his teammates is actually larger than almost any other player - their respective teammates.

Rielly is more valuable because of the potential, I guess. Gardiner is light-years more effective at even-strength, though. Its not really worth debating considering that both are young, cost controlled assets that by no means should be moved/shopped, unless something spectacular came around. Given the team need (D), I find it hard to believe you'll find a suitable trade partner for Gardiner anyway.