Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

[CrosbyMalkin]

Who do you consider the second best Penguin? #68 or #87?

That was pretty easy. Crosby and it is not close. Jagr actually had the better seasons winning 5 Art Ross Trophies but he was never the main guy for a Cup team. He won his Cups in his first 2 years when he was good but not near one of the leaders of those teams.

Crosby has been just as dominant even without as many scoring titles. Crosby leads the rest of his generation in points per 82 games played by double figures with 106 points per 82 games compared to next closest Malkin 96 points and 3rd closest AO 91 points. Crosby has dominated his era the same way that Lemieux did but like Lemieux injuries allows for some to not realize how dominant they had been.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I know the majority of people will vote for Sid because of how Jagr left here, but Jagr would skate circles around Sid in his prime. Jags routinely made jaw-dropping plays. You couldn’t knock Jagr off the puck and he was a much bigger player.

Even though Jags is a winger, I’d take him easily over Sid.

Both great players that dominated their time. Hard to argue against 5 scoring titles, Jagr is very underrated on how good he was. He clearly is one of the top 10 all time. I just think Crosby was just as dominating but also led his team to 3 Cups.

Let’s just say we have been blessed to have had 4 generational players in the past 30 years. Lemieux 6 scoring titles, Jagr 5, Crosby 2, Malkin 2, and dominated PPG while they played compared to their generation. I won’t fault anyone for choosing either of these players. Mario clearly best player ever to lace ups skates though. I would take a healthy Mario in his prime 1989 over any player to have played the game.

 

[EightyOne]

Career eval include off-ice activities/community outreach? Because Sid CRUSHES Jagr there, too.

 

[Sorry]

That was pretty easy. Crosby and it is not close. Jagr actually had the better seasons winning 5 Art Ross Trophies but he was never the main guy for a Cup team. He won his Cups in his first 2 years when he was good but not near one of the leaders of those teams.

Crosby has been just as dominant even without as many scoring titles. Crosby leads the rest of his generation in points per 82 games played by double figures with 106 points per 82 games compared to next closest Malkin 96 points and 3rd closest AO 91 points. Crosby has dominated his era the same way that Lemieux did but like Lemieux injuries allows for some to not realize how dominant they had been.

I agree. I started this poll because of what a poster named FutureGOAT has been saying on the main boards. Sid is easily the second greatest Penguin. Heck, I’d say he and Mario are 1a-1b, almost. And Geno and Jagr are 2a-2b.

It’s nice being a Pens fan lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t know in what world Jagr would skate circles around Sid. Sid’s prime was equal to Jagr’s and he played center.

 

[Turin]

I don’t know in what world Jagr would skate circles around Sid. Sid’s prime was equal to Jagr’s and he played center.

In a world where dangling the equivalent to an ECHL dmen in 2019 is our metric

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I know the majority of people will vote for Sid because of how Jagr left here, but Jagr would skate circles around Sid in his prime. Jags routinely made jaw-dropping plays. You couldn’t knock Jagr off the puck and he was a much bigger player.

Even though Jags is a winger, I’d take him easily over Sid.

This sounds like something someone who says the players from the 90s were so much better than today's star would say.

 

[EightyOne]

This sounds like something someone who says the players from the 90s were so much better than today's star would say.

And if we really want to talk players who could literally be skating around others, today's bottom six guys have enough talent that other generations' bottom sixers would have zero chance at an NHL career.

So much more talent today on average.

The fact that Sid, for nearly a decade and a half, has been at the tip of the iceberg is f***ing amazing.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Career eval include off-ice activities/community outreach? Because Sid CRUSHES Jagr there, too.

I dunno. Sid doesn't have any cringe-worthy ads for mafia-owned Czech betting companies yet, so...

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think a more interesting question is what pairing would Jack Johnson be on for the 1989-1993 Pens?

 

[EightyOne]

...you know what...JMFJ might be top pairing. He'd be perfect in clutch and grab, physical hockey....

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

AND, when Jagr lost that help and was playing with scrubs, the 2nd line had guys like Kovalev, Lang, and Straka, so a 'no support behind' argument doesn't entirely jibe.

That said, Jagr's individual regular season trophy case notwithstanding, I'm in the Crosby camp. 3 cups as lead dog.

2 cups as Batman 1 cup as robin

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I became a Pens fan because of 66 & 68 and as much as I loved Jagr in Pittsburgh I'm sorry but this isn't even close
Crosby 10 x out of 10!!!!!

 

[kladorf2005]

There's a good case to be made for Jagr as one of the top 10 RWs of all time, but 2nd best Pen? Crosby and not even close, IMO.

Please name 10 RWs better than Jagr. I'll wait.

I think what you meant to say was "top 10 players". Not "top 10 RWs"

 

[HandshakeLine]

Please name 10 RWs better than Jagr. I'll wait.

I think what you meant to say was "top 10 players". Not "top 10 RWs"

That's not how top 10s work, you know. That would make Jagr a top 11 RW of all time.

But since you asked so sweetly, I think I'll play a bit:

Consensus best RW of all time?

Gordie Howe.

Then you can mix and match as you choose depending on what criteria or eras you value:

Maurice Richard
Mike Bossy
Guy LaFleur

Let's see... we're at 4?

The next group is pretty much also mix and match according to taste. I'd put Jagr here, I think, but it's really hard to tell where-- he wasn't as good at two-way as Kurri, he had better supporting teams than Selanne, he wasn't as great of a shot as Hull, etc. Jagr's big points are longevity and, in his prime with a talented cast, he was a great individual goal scorer, but not a sniper.

Teemu Selanne
Jarda Jagr
Brett Hull
Jari Kurri

Then you've got the guys that were historically great but not to those levels of individual talent: Bernie Geoffrion, Andy Bathgate, and we'll keep that as our 10.

Then you've got the guys who were great in their day but hard to classify because of the era of hockey: Bill Cook, Dit Clapper, Charlie Conacher, so on, but who were legit phenoms in the early years of the NHL.

The short of it is, there's a good argument for Jagr in the top 10, but if you weight certain eras or stats or qualities or hardware more, there's also ways to bump Jaroušek out of the top 10 too. It all depends on where you set your evaluation criteria.

And as for all time all-NHL, well. Jagr's a talent, but there's no way he's top 10 of all time, even only including skaters.

Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Richard, Beliveau, Bossy, Hull, Lidström, Bourque, LaFleur, Ovechkin, Crosby, Yzerman, Mikita... Jarda just doesn't have the hardware that some of these guys do, and we're not even talking adding Hašek, Roy, Dryden, etc. into the mix.

 

[kladorf2005]

Consensus best RW of all time?

Gordie Howe.

I won't argue against this one.

Then you can mix and match as you choose depending on what criteria or eras you value:

Maurice Richard
Mike Bossy
Guy LaFleur

Pure hockey talent, I'd argue Jagr is ahead of all 3 of these players. But to say these 3 names are clearly ahead of Jagr? Absolutely not. Also, as you mentioned, difficult to make good comparisons considering the different era's they played in. And we don't have the best video evidence on these guys either (I'm not old enough to have watched them)

Teemu Selanne
Jarda Jagr
Brett Hull
Jari Kurri

Jagr is a career 1.11ppg player. He played on some very good teams for maybe 25% of his career. The rest of the time he was either on mediocre teams or was 100 years old. And he didn't have the benefit of playing during the 80's...

Hull is your best argument. Certainly a better pure goal scorer than Jagr. But from a playmaking, talent perspective, Jagr wins. Add the longevity as the tiebreaker for me.

I've got Selanne next in order. He's the lowest of the group at 1.00ppg. But he also only benefited from playing on a very good team for about 25% of his career. And his prime years were during the lowest scoring era of this bunch. Similar to Hull, I'll give him the edge as a goal scorer, but not playmaking or longevity.

Kurri played on stacked Oilers teams during the highest scoring decade and is a career 1.12ppg. I'm sorry, but this guy doesn't belong in this group.

Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Richard, Beliveau, Bossy, Hull, Lidström, Bourque, LaFleur, Ovechkin, Crosby, Yzerman, Mikita... Jarda just doesn't have the hardware that some of these guys do, and we're not even talking adding Hašek, Roy, Dryden, etc. into the mix.

I've bolded the only skaters that are clearly ahead of Jagr. He has a case to be as high as #5. And there are not 6 other skaters beyond the big 4 that are clearly ahead of Jagr. Arguably ahead? Sure. Clearly ahead? No.

And in terms of all-around player, no, Jagr isn't going to be at the top of the list defensively. But he was still a well rounded player in pretty much every other area of the game. I don't think the same can be said for Ovechkin, and you should not have listed him above.

Comparing goalies to skaters is silly, btw.

 

[Turin]

Crosby is clearly better than Jagr dude. What he missed in his peak he made up for in playoff success and consistency.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Comparing goalies to skaters is silly, btw.

You said top 10 all time, not me.

Secondly, lots of good writing on those players you haven't seen, and I'd encourage you to check it out. Again, there's no consensus best, but acting like it's so unheard of that these old bums (I mean, Bossy is pretty much one of the best pure goal scorers of all time, playing against some of the greatest competition in that era) but if you're going for the eye test, of course the stars you grew up with is going to seem like the best one.

PPG is a terrible stat for this, especially since you're leaving out excellent 2-way players like Kurri (who could also score even without Gretzky), differences in league composition, season length, salary cap era vs. non...

So, really I think you need to ask yourself what exactly are you defining here as best? Best "talent"? Best "goal scoring RW"? Best "all around RW"? Best player in comparison to his peers? Best production weighted for league-wide scoring and parity?

You tell me.

 

[HandshakeLine]

And in terms of all-around player, no, Jagr isn't going to be at the top of the list defensively. But he was still a well rounded player in pretty much every other area of the game. I don't think the same can be said for Ovechkin, and you should not have listed him above.

Comparing goalies to skaters is silly, btw.

This is confusing as hell to me, and does not jive with anyone who sat through mid-to-late career Jagr in the NHL or internationally. So, help me out here. What do you mean by that?

 

[Crosbyfan]

Playoff all time leaders:

Rk	Name	Born	Pos	GP	G	A	P	PIM	+/-	PPG	SHG	GWG	G/GP	A/GP	P/GP
1		Wayne Gretzky	1961	F	208	122	260	382	66	86	34	11	24	0.587	1.250	1.837
2		Mark Messier	1961	F	236	109	186	295	244	42	24	14	12	0.462	0.788	1.250
3		Jari Kurri	1960	F	200	106	127	233	123	88	25	10	14	0.530	0.635	1.165
4		Glenn Anderson	1960	F	225	93	121	214	442	67	22	1	17	0.413	0.538	0.951
5		Jaromír Jágr	1972	F	208	78	123	201	163	30	24	2	16	0.375	0.591	0.966

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Impressive that Gretzky leads in penalty minutes...

 

[Crosbyfan]

I think a more interesting question is what pairing would Jack Johnson be on for the 1989-1993 Pens?

He would have been a small child at that time, so I don't think he would have been much better than he is currently.

 

[Son Goku]

For me Maurice Richard>Jaromir Jagr

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby has two playoff mvps and another two runs where scored 31 and 27 points in addition. It’s not close. Add in Crosby’s 21 points in 12 games last year and...

 

[kladorf2005]

So, really I think you need to ask yourself what exactly are you defining here as best? Best "talent"? Best "goal scoring RW"? Best "all around RW"? Best player in comparison to his peers? Best production weighted for league-wide scoring and parity?

No to the bolded. The rest of those questions are all reasonable for this discussion. And I think he can make a case to be #5 or better all-time for every one of those questions.

This is confusing as hell to me, and does not jive with anyone who sat through mid-to-late career Jagr in the NHL or internationally. So, help me out here. What do you mean by that?

He could beat you so many different ways. Stick handling, passing, skating, shooting. He was so strong on his feet and impossible to knock off the puck. Go back and watch the GWG in the double OT game against the Pens in the 2013 ECF. Sure, he got away with a hook, but even that late in his career (age 41), he was still capable of making plays in the big moment.

 

[HandshakeLine]

He could beat you so many different ways. Stick handling, passing, skating, shooting. He was so strong on his feet and impossible to knock off the puck. Go back and watch the GWG in the double OT game against the Pens in the 2013 ECF. Sure, he got away with a hook, but even that late in his career (age 41), he was still capable of making plays in the big moment.

This is turning into a good discussion. Thanks!

See, here's where we're differing, I think. I don't think different ways of goalscoring necessarily makes someone a complete player. Jagr was a singular goalscoring talent, no doubt- others scored more goals, but nobody scored goals LIKE ol' Yammy Yags. He was immensely strong on the puck, he was big, and he had incredible hands. He had flair.

He was not as elite playmaking winger as his numbers would suggest though-- Jagr's vision was good, but he was selfish. Look at his stats-- his best years for assists were the first year post-Francis (who has been criminally underrated in this thread, btw), when the team restructured its top 6 to expressly benefit Jagr, and 2001 when Lemieux's return put him back on Jagr's line and the team went on an adrenaline-fueled tear. I'm not saying Jagr's a slouch by any means, but just that he was a player with excellent physical tools, but also had holes in his game and was as complete as some of the other players on this list like Howe and Richard.

Which brings me to my point- it takes more than a knack for individual goals to make one the best RW of all time. Jagr could cost you defensively, and he could be neutralized. Once his skating began to suffer, his minutes needed more protection (in spite of his demand to play more minutes), and more ice time meant more help to get diminishing numbers of returns. Some of the others on that list were more versatile-- Selanne's speed and smarts, for example, meant that he was deadly PKer and more use there than Jagr. Lafleur was good in any situation, even after injuries began to take their toll. Power RWs like Neely, Richard, and Howe were vastly more physical and thrived in situations that Jagr expressly didn't. Even accounting for era, Bossy was pretty much the best pure goalscorer the league has ever seen until the contemporary era. Hull was more productive as sniper and, if we're looking at individual gifts, had one of the best shots the league has ever seen. So on, so forth.