Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

Penguins Career


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kladorf2005

Registered User
Apr 20, 2018
1,403
1,614
This is turning into a good discussion. Thanks!

See, here's where we're differing, I think. I don't think different ways of goalscoring necessarily makes someone a complete player. Jagr was a singular goalscoring talent, no doubt- others scored more goals, but nobody scored goals LIKE ol' Yammy Yags. He was immensely strong on the puck, he was big, and he had incredible hands. He had flair.

He was not as elite playmaking winger as his numbers would suggest though-- Jagr's vision was good, but he was selfish. Look at his stats-- his best years for assists were the first year post-Francis (who has been criminally underrated in this thread, btw), when the team restructured its top 6 to expressly benefit Jagr, and 2001 when Lemieux's return put him back on Jagr's line and the team went on an adrenaline-fueled tear. I'm not saying Jagr's a slouch by any means, but just that he was a player with excellent physical tools, but also had holes in his game and was as complete as some of the other players on this list like Howe and Richard.

Which brings me to my point- it takes more than a knack for individual goals to make one the best RW of all time. Jagr could cost you defensively, and he could be neutralized. Once his skating began to suffer, his minutes needed more protection (in spite of his demand to play more minutes), and more ice time meant more help to get diminishing numbers of returns. Some of the others on that list were more versatile-- Selanne's speed and smarts, for example, meant that he was deadly PKer and more use there than Jagr. Lafleur was good in any situation, even after injuries began to take their toll. Power RWs like Neely, Richard, and Howe were vastly more physical and thrived in situations that Jagr expressly didn't. Even accounting for era, Bossy was pretty much the best pure goalscorer the league has ever seen until the contemporary era. Hull was more productive as sniper and, if we're looking at individual gifts, had one of the best shots the league has ever seen. So on, so forth.

I can't disagree with anything you just said. Especially the part about him being selfish, and at times, a liability (not unlike Geno, btw). However, his strength on the puck and his hands, made for so many highlight reel goals.

I know you don't like the PPG argument, but all these guys you mentioned had so many dazzling moments throughout their careers. They all pass the "eye test" with ease. Ignoring stats, it's really just a matter of personal preference / bias. But when you bring the stats into the discussion, none of the guys you mentioned (sans Gretzky/Lemieux) had a run like Jagr had from 1993-2002.
  • 153 more points than anyone else during that span (Sakic)
  • 3 of the top 6 individual seasons (the other 3 were Mario, Wayne, Mario)
  • 5 of the top 10 PPG seasons
  • 5 Art Ross's (2 were by double digits and 1 he missed 25% of the season)
He was so far ahead of all of his peers during that span (with the exception of Lemieux when he played). Aside from Gretzky and Lemieux, no one else has ever been that far ahead of their peer group for an 8 season stretch. 3 to 4 seasons, sure. But not 8.
 
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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
47,751
31,593
Praha, CZ
I just think the PPG argument is weird, especially if we're pro-rating players who played on weak teams. Although the Pens flopped pretty hard in the from 93 to the Crosby era, those teams were not really bad teams, especially up until Francis left. The really only bad Pens teams came after Jagr left- up until 2001, those teams were middling contenders, but they were not bottom feeders. They were just basically top heavy two line teams with no defense and no goaltending, so perfect for a player that thrives on lots of ice time and little responsibility.

Again, Jagr's an individual talent and a really unique player, but you could also say the same about everyone else on my list or the other lists floating around, I guess. :laugh:
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
109,700
51,216
I really do think Geno is, stylistically, the best comparison to Jagr we've seen in a long time, both in his play for the team and his role in the organization.

But, as we discussed, it's also flawed because Geno's Batman moments were limited to about 80% of the 2011-2012 regular season and 40% of the 2007-2008 regular season.
 

Czech Your Math

I am lizard king
Jan 25, 2006
5,169
303
bohemia
This is turning into a good discussion. Thanks!

See, here's where we're differing, I think. I don't think different ways of goalscoring necessarily makes someone a complete player. Jagr was a singular goalscoring talent, no doubt- others scored more goals, but nobody scored goals LIKE ol' Yammy Yags. He was immensely strong on the puck, he was big, and he had incredible hands. He had flair.

I agree that the variety of ways scoring goals doesn't make one a complete player.
What made Jagr at least a complete offensive player was that he had all the tools, was an elite possession player, and because he was both an elite goal-scorer, play-maker and possession player, he was elite in his offensive versatility.

He was not as elite playmaking winger as his numbers would suggest though-- Jagr's vision was good, but he was selfish. Look at his stats-- his best years for assists were the first year post-Francis (who has been criminally underrated in this thread, btw), when the team restructured its top 6 to expressly benefit Jagr, and 2001 when Lemieux's return put him back on Jagr's line and the team went on an adrenaline-fueled tear. I'm not saying Jagr's a slouch by any means, but just that he was a player with excellent physical tools, but also had holes in his game and was as complete as some of the other players on this list like Howe and Richard.

He wasn't as elite of a play-making wing as his numbers suggest? Well, the numbers suggest:

* Set the all-time single season record for assists by a wing in '96 (with Francis; not on Lemieux's line)
* Led the league in assists 3 times in '98, '99, '01 (tied with Howe & Lafleur for most times by a wing)
* Finished top 10 in assists ten times, and top 3 six times.
* Finished top 10 in both goals & assists in six seasons, and top 4 in both four times (one season with Francis where he finished 2nd to Lemieux in goals and 3rd behind Lemieux/Francis in assists. including seasons where he played mostly with Hrdina & Miller while finishing 2nd in goals & 1st in assists in '99 and 4th & 3rd while missing 19 games in 2000... and 2nd in goals & 1st in assists at age 33/34 with Rangers in '06 with similarly aged Nylander & Straka)

Jagr was not as complete as Howe (defense, physicality), but while Richard was more physical, Jagr was a much better play-maker and very probably better possession player.

Which brings me to my point- it takes more than a knack for individual goals to make one the best RW of all time. Jagr could cost you defensively, and he could be neutralized. Once his skating began to suffer, his minutes needed more protection (in spite of his demand to play more minutes), and more ice time meant more help to get diminishing numbers of returns. Some of the others on that list were more versatile-- Selanne's speed and smarts, for example, meant that he was deadly PKer and more use there than Jagr. Lafleur was good in any situation, even after injuries began to take their toll. Power RWs like Neely, Richard, and Howe were vastly more physical and thrived in situations that Jagr expressly didn't. Even accounting for era, Bossy was pretty much the best pure goalscorer the league has ever seen until the contemporary era. Hull was more productive as sniper and, if we're looking at individual gifts, had one of the best shots the league has ever seen. So on, so forth.

I think the only wing clearly better than Jagr is probably Howe. It's very close with Hull IMO, with Jagr's play-making & versatility vs. Hull's goals-scoring & physicality. Arguments can be made for peak Lafleur or prime Richard. I don't really see a good argument for Ovechkin over Jagr.

Jagr's argument for being one of the best forwards and very best wings of all-time doesn't rest on his knack for scoring highlight reel goals in a variety of ways (power, dangling, stick-handling, finesse, wrist shot, etc.). It rests on him being perhaps the best offensive player (completeness, versatility, overall value, peak, prime, career) after Gretzky, Lemieux and possibly Howe. His finishes in points, goals, assists, goals & assists in same season, even strength points/goals/assists, and plus-minus (raw & adjusted) are among the very best forwards of all-time. His playoffs production during his prime ('92-08) was very strong, whether in goals, points or plus-minus.
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