Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

[Turin]

If you grew up watching Jagr and you say Sid is better than Jagr when you stated Jagr was the Penguins. The only two greater players better than him when he came in was Gretzky and Lemieux. And when they fell off it was him and by a long shot. Crosby has competion Ovi, Malkin and thats it. Jagr for 5 to 6 years straight no one was there closest was Lindros.

I’d like to see Crosby’s point totals in 96 playing on that Penguins powerplay with Lemieux. The sport was in a different universe when Jagr had his peak.

 

[Turin]

Crosby is hyped up by the media a lot and with Merrit. But to me growing up in 90's and what players were allowed to do and not do. Crosby did not dominate the game like Lindros, Jagr, post prime Lemieux, Sakic and Forsberg. To me how Crosby has produces is on par to Joe Sakic. Take a look at Sakic's stats. Crosby is better than Sakic, but the margin between the two is not that far apart

Crosby is better than Jagr, Lindros, Forsberg and especially Sakic. Stop.

 

[Son Goku]

Howe played 40 more games than Jagr and you throw the longevity card out there? That would be like saying Jagr trumps Howe in points.

Come on man. They both had remarkably longgg careers. There is an argument there. You just refuse to see the other side.

And before you blast me, no I am not saying Jagr > Howe. I'm saying Jagr is allowed to be mentioned in the same sentence as Howe. Unlike some other posters in this thread who refuse to admit Jagr can be mentioned in the same sentence as Crosby...

Also, none of us watched Howe (and if we did, we're probably too senile to have a clear opinion anyway, at this point). So it's much more difficult to compare Jagr to Howe

No its not even close. Howe was top five in scoring for 20 straight seasons. His offensive dominance was close to Lemieux's relative to his peers not to mention his defensive prowess. Howe can lay a claim to being the greatest hockey player ever, Jagr can not.

 

[kladorf2005]

No its not even close. Howe was top five in scoring for 20 straight seasons. His offensive dominance was close to Lemieux's relative to his peers not to mention his defensive prowess. Howe can lay a claim to being the greatest hockey player ever, Jagr can not.

No. Maybe he can lay claim to second greatest. But hockey is the only sport where there is a very clear greatest player ever.

EDIT: Jagr's point finishes:

• 1994 finished 9th (well out of the running - but this was the beginning of his run)
• 1995 won (tied w/ Lindros)
• 1996 finished 2nd (12 behind Mario but 29 points ahead of 3rd place, Sakic)
• 1997 finished 6th (while missing 19 games - was 2nd in PPG to only Mario)
• 1998 won by 11
• 1999 won by 20
• 2000 won by 2 (while missing 19 games)
• 2001 won by 3 (over Sakic - but 3rd place was 25 points behind Jagr)
• 2002 finished 5th (while missing 13 games)

 

[ChaosAgent]

This is the same argument for Toews and why is deserved to be in top 100 players of all time over Malkin. Crosby's 1st Smythe is up for question. Malkin led the Pens in the two first Cups the Pens won in Crosby Era. In Addtion everyone is history not name Gretzky would be second and a far second behind Lemieux. To your argument about Jarg not leading the team to a Cup, Jagr didn't have a team that's why he got traded because the Pens were such in bad shape finacially. Once Gretzky left the Oilers he never one or led a team to another Championship.. And this is why i do not take people's words or general opinion. I Watch Jagr play and it was sheer dominance on the league. But cannot win a championship without the right people around. Hell look at McDavid, he is right now considered the best player in the game, but his team cannot get in the playoff. Would you say ever since McDavid came in the league Crosby is better then him as a player right now.. Not career.

No, it's not. Regardless of which argument you're making.

1) This is about best Penguin, not best player. I'll agree with you that Crosby has not yet surpassed Jagr in the overall all-time rankings although I project that he will. As a Penguin, the individual production is close but Crosby is a 2-way centerman and 3 cups as the team's best player and captain is a tiebreaker. Did you also seriously claim that Malkin "led the Pens" in the 2016 postseason? Maybe that's a typo. Malkin definitely helped in the 2015-2016 regular season; he helped keep the team afloat during the Johnston days of misery but Crosby, Letang, Murray and HBK carried the team in the 2016 postseason.

2) Toews in the top 100 was a joke because it was already obvious that his career was on a sharp decline at that point. If he had maintained the level that he played at from 2010-2014 up until today, he'd absolutely deserve it. Malkin should have made it over about 50 people, though.

 

[kladorf2005]

Crosby, Letang, Murray and HBK carried the team in the 2016 postseason.

Pretty sure Letang got hurt that postseason...

EDIT: I was wrong. Was thinking of the 2017 cup run. My apologies

 

[Turin]

Pretty sure Letang got hurt that postseason...

He did, and he played through it, scoring the Cup winning goal.

 

[kladorf2005]

He did, and he played through it, scoring the Cup winning goal.

Apologies - was thinking of the 2017 cup run.

 

[Son Goku]

No. Maybe he can lay claim to second greatest. But hockey is the only sport where there is a very clear greatest player ever.

Nah, there are four players who can lay claim to this title, Gretzky just has the best argument imo. He has no what ifs.

 

[kladorf2005]

Nah, there are four players who can lay claim to this title, Gretzky just has the best argument imo. He has no what ifs.

While I agree that the top 4 are set, there's zero argument to who #1 is.

And if you think 3 people not name Gretzky can make an argument for #1 - how can you not think Jagr can make an argument for #5?

(Yes, I am conceeding Howe > Jagr. But that gap is closer than #2 is to #1)

 

[Gurglesons]

While I agree that the top 4 are set, there's zero argument to who #1 is.

And if you think 3 people not name Gretzky can make an argument for #1 - how can you not think Jagr can make an argument for #5?

(Yes, I am conceeding Howe > Jagr. But that gap is closer than #2 is to #1)

Because Jagr was never “the guy” on a championship squad.

He wasn’t even the guy on the Czech Olympic team.

That’s always my thing when people defend his Art Ross records. It is a lot easier to amass points when a shitty team is completely center around you in the regular season.

What makes Mario, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr legends is what they did in their playoff runs and that is why Sid is held to the tier just below them.

The golden goal, the back to back Conns, the insane post season PPG still at 31.

 

[kladorf2005]

Because Jagr was never “the guy” on a championship squad.

He wasn’t even the guy on the Czech Olympic team.

That’s always my thing when people defend his Art Ross records. It is a lot easier to amass points when a ****ty team is completely center around you in the regular season.

What makes Mario, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr legends is what they did in their playoff runs and that is why Sid is held to the tier just below them.

The golden goal, the back to back Conns, the insane post season PPG still at 31.

I hate this argument. Aside from goalies, no skater can ever be "the guy". You aren't winning jack without a supporting cast and/or hot goaltender.

I love Crosby. Will defend him in the Ovi arguments to my death. But he was never "the guy" in any of the 3 cup runs

2009 - no "one guy", but Geno was closer to being it than Crosby was
2016 - entire team was loaded, and HBK line had a horseshoe up their ass
2017 - Fleury/Murray won most of those 16 games they had no business winning

 

[Gurglesons]

I hate this argument. Aside from goalies, no skater can ever be "the guy". You aren't winning jack without a supporting cast and/or hot goaltender.

I love Crosby. Will defend him in the Ovi arguments to my death. But he was never "the guy" in any of the 3 cup runs

2009 - no "one guy", but Geno was closer to being it than Crosby was
2016 - entire team was loaded, and HBK line had a horseshoe up their ass
2017 - Fleury/Murray won most of those 16 games they had no business winning

LOL. You’re obviously from another fan base who came in here to troll us.

Sid was the best player in 3 of 4 cup runs and the difference between him and Malkin was a coin toss in 09.

The 08, 09, and 2017 cup runs were the definition of Sid and Geno dragging teams to the finals.

Jagr in the 91 and 92 wins wasn’t even Kessel level for the Penguins.

 

[ChaosAgent]

LOL. You’re obviously from another fan base who came in here to troll us.

Sid was the best player in 3 of 4 cup runs and the difference between him and Malkin was a coin toss in 09.

The 08, 09, and 2017 cup runs were the definition of Sid and Geno dragging teams to the finals.

Jagr in the 91 and 92 wins wasn’t even Kessel level for the Penguins.

For this one, I'd say that the 2-headed monster was actually Fleury/Murray and conversely we got incredibly lucky that Holtby and Rinne were garbage. Of course we did need the production that Sid, Geno, Jake and Phil provided.

 

[kladorf2005]

LOL. You’re obviously from another fan base who came in here to troll us.

Sid was the best player in 3 of 4 cup runs and the difference between him and Malkin was a coin toss in 09.

The 08, 09, and 2017 cup runs were the definition of Sid and Geno dragging teams to the finals.

Jagr in the 91 and 92 wins wasn’t even Kessel level for the Penguins.

Being the best player, doesn't make you "the guy".

Crosby got hurt in the 2nd period of game 7 against a far superior Wings team. Any chance the Pens hang onto that 1-0 lead when he goes down, if he was "the guy"? Sure, Crosby/Malkin was a coin flip, but again, none of this, "the guy" nonsense.

Heck, Crosby literally won the Smythes because there was no "one guy" in either 2016 or 2017. I'm confident that the Pens weren't losing in 2016, no matter what happened. That entire team caught fire when Geno went down towards the end of the regular season and HBK was created.

There's an argument to be made for 2017. Crosby was absolutely the best skater. But 3 of the 4 wins against CBJ don't happen without Fleury. He stood on his head. And games 1 and 2 of the SCF aren't won without Murray. Those are just the games that stand out in my memory. I know there were also a few against the Caps and Sens that we had no business winning without the hot goaltender. If Fleury doesn't get yanked in the Sens series, he would have won the Smythe, without a doubt.

 

[end]

The only Penguin to captain the team to three Stanley Cups.

 

[Gurglesons]

Being the best player, doesn't make you "the guy".

Crosby got hurt in the 2nd period of game 7 against a far superior Wings team. Any chance the Pens hang onto that 1-0 lead when he goes down, if he was "the guy"? Sure, Crosby/Malkin was a coin flip, but again, none of this, "the guy" nonsense.

Heck, Crosby literally won the Smythes because there was no "one guy" in either 2016 or 2017. I'm confident that the Pens weren't losing in 2016, no matter what happened. That entire team caught fire when Geno went down towards the end of the regular season and HBK was created.

There's an argument to be made for 2017. Crosby was absolutely the best skater. But 3 of the 4 wins against CBJ don't happen without Fleury. He stood on his head. And games 1 and 2 of the SCF aren't won without Murray. Those are just the games that stand out in my memory. I know there were also a few against the Caps and Sens that we had no business winning without the hot goaltender. If Fleury doesn't get yanked in the Sens series, he would have won the Smythe, without a doubt.

Fleury would not have won the Smythe because we wouldn’t have beaten the Sens.

 

[kladorf2005]

Fleury would not have won the Smythe because we wouldn’t have beaten the Sens.

Right. The 2-1 OT loss in game 1 was all his fault. And the 1-0 shutout win in game 2 was all because of Crosby. And the Pens didn't come out flat at all in the game 3 blowout. That was definitely all on Fleury.

Fleury was the #1 star in 8 of the 13 games he played that postseason (3/5, 3/7, 2/3)
Add to that, Murray was the #1 star in 6 of the 11 games he played

So how was Crosby, "the guy" that year? I'm done arguing with you.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Fleury would not have won the Smythe because we wouldn’t have beaten the Sens.

The Penguins goaltending should have won the Smythe as a collective. I realize it doesn't happen, but the Fleury/Murray duo was by far the MVP of the 2017 playoffs. Fleury stole the Washington series and Murray stole the Nashville series (although not quite as much).

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins goaltending should have won the Smythe as a collective. I realize it doesn't happen, but the Fleury/Murray duo was by far the MVP of the 2017 playoffs. Fleury stole the Washington series and Murray stole the Nashville series (although not quite as much).

Meh. That cup win was the Penguins forwards carrying the team.

 

[Al Smith]

The Penguins goaltending should have won the Smythe as a collective. I realize it doesn't happen, but the Fleury/Murray duo was by far the MVP of the 2017 playoffs. Fleury stole the Washington series and Murray stole the Nashville series (although not quite as much).

That was my thought at the time, but this is the NHL you're talking about. Not a bastion of creativity and innovation. Was just as happy to see 87 win CS.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

If you asked me three years ago, it would have been very very close, with Jagr probably getting a slight edge. Fast forward to today: Crosby has added a Richard, two Smythes and 2 more cups. To me, he's clearly ahead now, even if I still think it's very close. That's not knocking Jagr, he was down right dominant as a Penguin. Both can be amazing players, I don't need to knock one down to build the other one up. Damn, are we spoiled. The fact that those two guys are even a clear step below the greatest Penguin ever is still hard to grasp. Add in what Malkin has done on top of that, sheesh.

 

[Nakawick]

Well, we think Jagr's career is over now. Still an unknown amount of time left for Sid. I watched both careers and in a one game take all I would choose Sid first and it really isn't that close to be truthful.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Crosby at 87 votes

 

[EightyOne]

It would have been really awesome if Jags won that 5OT game against Philly in 2000.

Pens woulda had a chance to go all the way off that. New Jersey would have been tough, though.

Sure, there were a lot of players out there who didn't score.