Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

Penguins Career


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TheGuiminator

I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
Oct 23, 2018
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If Crosby didn’t miss most of his prime, this wouldn’t even be a debate, cause Sid would’ve match Jagr’s individual awards, so everything would be in Sid’s favor.
 

Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
21,868
25,271
Being the best player, doesn't make you "the guy".

Crosby got hurt in the 2nd period of game 7 against a far superior Wings team. Any chance the Pens hang onto that 1-0 lead when he goes down, if he was "the guy"? Sure, Crosby/Malkin was a coin flip, but again, none of this, "the guy" nonsense.

Heck, Crosby literally won the Smythes because there was no "one guy" in either 2016 or 2017. I'm confident that the Pens weren't losing in 2016, no matter what happened. That entire team caught fire when Geno went down towards the end of the regular season and HBK was created.

There's an argument to be made for 2017. Crosby was absolutely the best skater. But 3 of the 4 wins against CBJ don't happen without Fleury. He stood on his head. And games 1 and 2 of the SCF aren't won without Murray. Those are just the games that stand out in my memory. I know there were also a few against the Caps and Sens that we had no business winning without the hot goaltender. If Fleury doesn't get yanked in the Sens series, he would have won the Smythe, without a doubt.

Spoken like somebody who looked at the shot totals and didn’t actually watch any of those games. That the Penguins were lucky to beat Columbus is such BS. Just because a team takes 25+ shots from above the circles doesn’t mean they deserve to win the game. Similarly hilarious is the idea that the Wings of 09, with their leaking goaltending, poor defense below Lidstrom’s pairing, and injured Datsyuk were far superior. Game isn’t played on the roster card.

Crosby lead the playoffs in ppg, got the hard matchups every time, dealt with coming back from a concussion to be the best player in the finals playing against Subban-Ekholm almost every shift.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
I was looking at Sid's place on the Pens all-time points...

Sid has 1,171pts in 906 games.
Mario has 1,723pts in 915 games.
Jagr had 1,079 in 806 games during his time as a Penguin.

Points Per Game wise...
Crosby: 1.29
Lemieux: 1.88
Jagr: 1.34

Crosby will always hold down that 2nd spot, he won't have the kind of accolades that Mario had or the ppg career wise that Jagr will, but he will without a doubt in my opinion, go down as the best Captain this team has ever had as well as the most complete player to ever play for the Penguins.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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That wasn't prime or near prime Francis that he had went Lemieux retired fyi

I forgot that Francis only played on season on the Penguins, despite coming over in a trade in 1990 and winning two Cups here.

It's also easy to forget that Jagr's left wing was the best left wing in the NHL at the time until his face caved in.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
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Heck, Crosby literally won the Smythes because there was no "one guy" in either 2016 or 2017. I'm confident that the Pens weren't losing in 2016, no matter what happened. That entire team caught fire when Geno went down towards the end of the regular season and HBK was created..

So removing one their best players, if not the best, and more importantly, one who was clearly the centrepiece of the roster, doesn't change a thing?

That, my friend, is one very sketchy premise.

Of course, Crosby's Hart level of play from December onwards cannot be ignored regardless of what HBK did later in the season.

Here are there total points for the year:

Crosby - 106
LeTang - 87
Kessel - 81
Malkin - 76

LeTang certainly stands out as a Co-MVP but everything else points to Crosby.
 

kladorf2005

Registered User
Apr 20, 2018
1,403
1,614
Spoken like somebody who looked at the shot totals and didn’t actually watch any of those games. That the Penguins were lucky to beat Columbus is such BS. Just because a team takes 25+ shots from above the circles doesn’t mean they deserve to win the game. Similarly hilarious is the idea that the Wings of 09, with their leaking goaltending, poor defense below Lidstrom’s pairing, and injured Datsyuk were far superior. Game isn’t played on the roster card.

Crosby lead the playoffs in ppg, got the hard matchups every time, dealt with coming back from a concussion to be the best player in the finals playing against Subban-Ekholm almost every shift.

Nice try bud. I have no idea what the shot totals were. Didn't bother to go back and look. But it sounds like you did?

I watched those games. As I do every game. And I know that CBJ carried the play in 4 of the 5 games that series. Majority of those games were played in our end. Without looking (wouldn't even know where to look), I know that CBJ out-chanced us most of that series too. Pens 2nd best game that series was the one game they lost.

Maybe you didn't watch the games? Or maybe you just have a short memory? I don't know. Frankly, I don't care. But I said it to someone else earlier, and I'll say it to you too - it's Pens fans that say crap like this that makes other fan bases hate us. Try to show a little objectivity when you give your opinions.

PS: if you honestly believe the '09 Pens were a superior team to that Wings team, then I have no words...
 

Dessloch

DOPS keeping NHL players unsafe like its their job
Nov 29, 2005
3,121
2,878
Exactly. People ***** about Jagr’s squads. Well, a portion of that WAS Jagr.

He got everything he wanted and still didn’t deliver until Lemieux came back.

Easy to score scoring titles when the only expectation is for you yourself to score.

He’s a top 20 player all time, but certain fans want to make it like he is top ten or something. Not a chance given his post season performances.

Playoff all time leaders:

Notice: EDMONTON, EDMONTON, EDMONTON, EDMONTON DYNASTY - then Jaromir.

Give Jagr some credit, his post season performances were very good, if Jagr would have played in the high scoring era with teamates like Gretzkys, Jagr would be 2nd easily.

I love both Jagr and Crosby, I just think Jagr is very underrated in general.

I also have no doubts that Jagrs had been much more respected and more highly ranked, if he only had been born in Canada.....

RkNameBornPosGPGAPPIM+/-PPGSHGGWGG/GPA/GPP/GP
1
CA_Flag.png
Wayne Gretzky1961F20812226038266863411240.5871.2501.837
2
CA_Flag.png
Mark Messier1961F236109186295244422414120.4620.7881.250
3
FI_Flag.png
Jari Kurri1960F200106127233123882510140.5300.6351.165
4
CA_Flag.png
Glenn Anderson1960F2259312121444267221170.4130.5380.951
5
CZ_Flag.png
Jaromír Jágr1972F2087812320116330242160.3750.5910.966
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
Last edited:

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
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Playoff all time leaders:

Notice: EDMONTON, EDMONTON, EDMONTON, EDMONTON DYNASTY - then Jaromir.

Give Jagr some credit, his post season performances were very good, if Jagr would have played in the high scoring era with teamates like Gretzkys, Jagr would be 2nd easily.

I love both Jagr and Crosby, I just think Jagr is very underrated in general.

I also have no doubts that Jagrs had been much more respected and more highly ranked, if he only had been born in Canada.....

RkNameBornPosGPGAPPIM+/-PPGSHGGWGG/GPA/GPP/GP
1
CA_Flag.png
Wayne Gretzky1961F20812226038266863411240.5871.2501.837
2
CA_Flag.png
Mark Messier1961F236109186295244422414120.4620.7881.250
3
FI_Flag.png
Jari Kurri1960F200106127233123882510140.5300.6351.165
4
CA_Flag.png
Glenn Anderson1960F2259312121444267221170.4130.5380.951
5
CZ_Flag.png
Jaromír Jágr1972F2087812320116330242160.3750.5910.966
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You do realize Sid is 16 points off Jags in nearly 50 less games.
 

Dessloch

DOPS keeping NHL players unsafe like its their job
Nov 29, 2005
3,121
2,878
You do realize Sid is 16 points off Jags in nearly 50 less games.

You do realize that Jagrs totals include MANY playoffs as an old man, that screws Jagrs PPG.

But from me, this was not a dig at Crosby at all, I hold him very highly. I wanted Jagr to get respect for his playoff stats, I did not compare Jagr to Crosby, that was not my purpose at all.
 

Harvey Birdman

…Need some law books, with pictures this time…
Oct 21, 2008
9,145
2,234
Penguins Legal Office
For me, it’s Crosby. Because save a year or two in his end of career he will undoubtably have played his entire hockey professional career as a Penguin. And that’s not to negate the player Jagr was, the guy was a force of nature while with us... but I will always put a player that played their entire career with a team above a person that did not. And I’m not a Jagr hatter. I respect the player and person, I’d rally against him when he was a Cap, Ranger, and Flyer because well damnit he is playing for a division rival. But when he wasn’t I cheered for him. The man is a Pittsburgh legend and I’m in the block that hopes his number is retired in Pittsburgh’s rafters eventually. But to me, in my humble opinion, it goes Mario, Crosby, then Jagr.
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
21,437
9,057
You do realize that Jagrs totals include MANY playoffs as an old man, that screws Jagrs PPG.

But from me, this was not a dig at Crosby at all, I hold him very highly. I wanted Jagr to get respect for his playoff stats, I did not compare Jagr to Crosby, that was not my purpose at all.
Even if you only take Jagr's time in Pittsburgh, Crosby is still clearly ahead in terms of playoff performance.

Crosby - 185 points in 160 games
Jagr - 147 points in 140 games, with 92 of those points being between 91-96, which is a significantly higher era of scoring than any year in Crosby's career.

Jagr is ahead for regular season due to the 5 art rosses, but Crosby's playoff performance is what gives him the edge overall imo.
 
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KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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I forgot that Francis only played on season on the Penguins, despite coming over in a trade in 1990 and winning two Cups here.

It's also easy to forget that Jagr's left wing was the best left wing in the NHL at the time until his face caved in.

AND, when Jagr lost that help and was playing with scrubs, the 2nd line had guys like Kovalev, Lang, and Straka, so a 'no support behind' argument doesn't entirely jibe.

That said, Jagr's individual regular season trophy case notwithstanding, I'm in the Crosby camp. 3 cups as lead dog.
 
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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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AND, when Jagr lost that help and was playing with scrubs, the 2nd line had guys like Kovalev, Lang, and Straka, so a 'no support behind' argument doesn't entirely jibe.

That said, Jagr's individual regular season trophy case notwithstanding, I'm in the Crosby camp. 3 cups as lead dog.

Yeah, I don't really understand it, myself. One might even argue that even during the KLS years, that line alone was better than the entirety of the Pens' wing situation from 2008-until roughly 2016. :laugh:

The Crosby era cups didn't have ANY top 6 wings commensurate with the Jagr era, with better results to show for it.

There's a good case to be made for Jagr as one of the top 10 RWs of all time, but 2nd best Pen? Crosby and not even close, IMO.
 

KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
109,700
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Yeah, I don't really understand it, myself. One might even argue that even during the KLS years, that line alone was better than the entirety of the Pens' wing situation from 2008-until roughly 2016. :laugh:

The Crosby era cups didn't have ANY top 6 wings commensurate with the Jagr era, with better results to show for it.

There's a good case to be made for Jagr as one of the top 10 RWs of all time, but 2nd best Pen? Crosby and not even close, IMO.

Someone said Jagr versus Geno would've been the better comparison.

In that one, I still think Geno wins. Jagr has the individual trophy case, but Geno did more to help Sid win cups than Jagr ever did to help Mario.
 
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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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Someone said Jagr versus Geno would've been the better comparison.

In that one, I still think Geno wins. Jagr has the individual trophy case, but Geno did more to help Sid win cups than Jagr ever did to help Mario.

I didn't see that, but it is a much more interesting question, and one that has some pretty decent counterarguments in favor of Jagr.
 
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KIRK

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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I didn't see that, but it is a much more interesting question, and one that has some pretty decent counterarguments in favor of Jagr.

Yep.

As Robin to Batman (Sid for Geno, Mario for Jagr), Malkin was the better Penguin. Not even close.

As 'the man', Jagr was the better Penguin. Not even close. ALTHOUGH, Geno only had 1 season where he could be 'the man' and performed every bit as well in that more limited sample size than Jagr did as 'the man'.

But, yes, it's a hell of a question.
 

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
Mar 11, 2002
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Yep.

As Robin to Batman (Sid for Geno, Mario for Jagr), Malkin was the better Penguin. Not even close.

As 'the man', Jagr was the better Penguin. Not even close. ALTHOUGH, Geno only had 1 season where he could be 'the man' and performed every bit as well in that more limited sample size than Jagr did as 'the man'.

But, yes, it's a hell of a question.

And to me, the answer is Geno.

Geno's 09 post-season is a level Jagr never reached.

Jagr can have all the Art Rosses he wants, I'll take the guy with 3 cups and a CS run matched only by Mario/Gretzky.
 
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Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
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There’s no data like this for Jagr’s peak but Crosby’s GF/60 during his prime (2009-2013) was 4.5 which, for context, is a full goal higher than McDavid’s now, playing primarily with Kunitz and Dupuis. Crosby during his 2011 run also was getting sub 50% offensive zone starts.

Basically Crosby is easily the best player since Lemieux, when he was healthy and on the ice.
 
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K Fleur

Sacrifice
Mar 28, 2014
15,381
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The Crosby/Malkin era is the most successful time period the Penguins franchise has ever had.

Barring something unforeseen both Crosby and Malkin will be remembered more fondly than Jagr.

I think Crosby has indisputably had a better Penguins career than Jagr. In time I think the same will be said about Malkin.

Remember Jagr played less than half of his career for the Penguins.
 

Nathaniel

Registered User
Oct 18, 2013
13,603
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Crosby very easily. 2 smythes/3 cups.

Even individual awards Crosby is ahead with the pens.
2 art Ross
2 Hart
2 smythes
2 Richards
3 Lindsay’s

Vs

5 art Ross
1 hart
2 Lindsay’s
 

Beau Knows

Registered User
Mar 4, 2013
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Crosby's playoff play for me is just too strong in this comparassion. He will rightfuly go down as one of the greatest playoff performers ever, he's already 11th all-time in scoring.

Jagr was great in the post-season of course, but 2016 & 2017 Crosby cemented his legacy here. Back to back Smythes with strong performances and clutch moments with a more well-rounded game than ever.

In a league with a salary cap and far more competetive teams than ever Crosby and Malkin have led Pittsburgh to 3 Cups and 4 finals. Nearly every aspect of the organization and roster had changed over that time yet those 2 have kept us in the playoffs for 12 straight years
 

Pens x

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Oct 8, 2016
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I know the majority of people will vote for Sid because of how Jagr left here, but Jagr would skate circles around Sid in his prime. Jags routinely made jaw-dropping plays. You couldn’t knock Jagr off the puck and he was a much bigger player.

Even though Jags is a winger, I’d take him easily over Sid.
 

Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
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I know the majority of people will vote for Sid because of how Jagr left here, but Jagr would skate circles around Sid in his prime. Jags routinely made jaw-dropping plays. You couldn’t knock Jagr off the puck and he was a much bigger player.

Even though Jags is a winger, I’d take him easily over Sid.

Jagr would skate circles around Sid? It’s time to let go of the past and get your current house in order, sir.
 

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