Is Zetterberg a Hall of Fame player?

[george14]

Lifelong Wings fan here;

I would say he will get in eventually because he has a Cup, Conn Smythe, Gold Medal, and could hang on long enough to get to 1,000 points. He is probably the definition of a fringe HoF'er.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No, but it certainly puts context to the overall numbers.

From the site, here are the regular season year-by-year CF% numbers.

Year, 5v5 TOI, Toews's CF% against Zetterberg
2008, 40:37, 25.4%
2009, 18:49, 27.6%
2010, 24:02, 48.9%
2011, 33:41, 58.3%
2012, 19:06, 53.8%
2013, 13:38, 33.3%

Zetterberg obviously dominated Toews in 08 and 09 when Zetterberg was 27 and 28 while Toews was 19 and 20. After that, the matchup tended to favor Toews.

Corsi is so incredibly pointless when it's used in this context.

 

[FinRuutu]

I don't think Z should get in. Hes a great player but not HHOF player IMO.

 

[The Toews Era*]

Ok then maybe we should remove the seasons were Zetterberg was old because Toews has been in his physical prime the entire time? Point is, Z wins the possession battle over their careers.

Your 43% comment was a complete lie. You can remove recent seasons. Over most intermediate ranges of 5+ years, toews wins it.

 

[The Toews Era*]

Comparison since that series:

Zetterberg : 254GP 56G 143A 199P 0.78 P/GP
Toews : 280GP 93G 127A 220P 0.79 P/GP

Toews has been extremely narrowly outscoring a "faded into nothing" Zetterberg who has gone through major back surgery and seen his supporting cast take a huge downgrade.

And Toews isn't exactly trending up. His points/GP is declining for the 4th straight season now and he's unable to outscore a 36 year old, broken down version of Zetterberg who is playing on a lottery team. Who exactly is fading into nothing?

Toews is absolutely trending down, thats no secret. I mean it was an offhand comment about the wings becoming irrelevant but if we are comparing points, zetterberg has like 75 power play points over that period vs toews 40. So again just adding up points without considering power play opportunity is misleading.

 

[The Toews Era*]

Toews only scored 4 points with a substantially better surrounding cast. Z effectively canceled him out and did his job.

Wrong. Z got absolutely snowed under with a pathetic 37% corsi. The only reason Toews had 4 points is pure luck - low on ice shootung percentage/howard playing well. Nothing to do with zetterberg. What zetterberg could control - possession - he failed miserably at.

 

[The Toews Era*]

Corsi is so incredibly pointless when it's used in this context.

It was first used by danz to claim - in an outright lie - that zetterberg had a 57% cf% vs toews over their careers.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Toews is absolutely trending down, thats no secret. I mean it was an offhand comment about the wings becoming irrelevant but if we are comparing points, zetterberg has like 75 power play points over that period vs toews 40. So again just adding up points without considering power play opportunity is misleading.

I really don't see what difference that makes. Toews plays about as much on the PP as Zetterberg does, and PP points count the same as any other points. Not to mention Zetterberg isn't getting much help from the powerplay this season, Wings are the worst in the league at it. A "normal" Red Wings powerplay would have Zetterberg close to PPG.

It was first used by danz to claim - in an outright lie - that zetterberg had a 43% cf% vs toews over their careers.

Yes I'm not taking a side in that discussion, just saying it's a useless statistic.

 

[The Toews Era*]

I really don't see what difference that makes. Toews plays about as much on the PP as Zetterberg does, and PP points count the same as any other points. Not to mention Zetterberg isn't getting much help from the powerplay this season, Wings are the worst in the league at it. A "normal" Red Wings powerplay would have Zetterberg close to PPG.


Yes I'm not taking a side in that discussion, just saying it's a useless statistic.

Fair enough, but toews hasnt been on pp1 with kane for 1.5 years now id say. Less time on power play for sure, and not playing with first unit.

 

[DeYarmond Edison]

My opinion Henrik Zetterberg was the best playoff performer from 2006 to 2013. He shut down many top centers. Has about 50 playoff goals and about ppg around that time. Around that time frame he is about +45. Plays against top lines and has that ridiculous plus/minus

If I was voting zetterberg is in hhof.

He is bettet player than Toews.

This is the best post in the thread.

 

[DeYarmond Edison]

lots of jealousy in these threads, I bet your team hasn't won 3 cups in your lifetime

Four actually.

 

[AD1066]

No, but it certainly puts context to the overall numbers.

From the site, here are the regular season year-by-year CF% numbers.

Year, 5v5 TOI, Toews's CF% against Zetterberg
2008, 40:37, 25.4%
2009, 18:49, 27.6%
2010, 24:02, 48.9%
2011, 33:41, 58.3%
2012, 19:06, 53.8%
2013, 13:38, 33.3%

Zetterberg obviously dominated Toews in 08 and 09 when Zetterberg was 27 and 28 while Toews was 19 and 20. After that, the matchup tended to favor Toews.

You're looking at 149 or so minutes of data across six years while disregarding the other eight players on the ice.

 

[billybudd]

Why are you cherry picking specific years? I said over their whole careers Toews has a 43 cf% against Z. Z "skulled" Toews over the course of the entire careers just as he "skulled" Crosby. Toews didn't accomplish anything individually that Z didn't accomplish as well besides winning a Selke on his overrated defense. He has Seabrook to thank for bailing him out that series. Z had no Seabrook or Keith behind him. Seems like Z has really upset you on a deep level though kinda like he's done to Toews and Crosby.

Quick correction, here. While Z's lines have slightly outscored Crosby's lines in head to heads (5 goals for, 4 against--which is still a major win considering who we're talking about), he hasn't won the possession battle or even come close to winning it (Z is at 38% CF% against Crosby, career).

More of a "victory from the jaws of defeat" thing than the domination Zetterberg has shown against Toews (on balance).

 

[authentic]

This is the best post in the thread.

Yeah I agree. He was a better player than Toews in every single way IMO.

 

[billybudd]

This 43% cf seemed odd so I fact checked it. Yup, a complete lie. From 2008-2016, Toews CF% vs zetterberg was 48.7%. Almost breakeven, NOT 43%.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=649&withagainst=true&season=2008-16&sit=5v5

If you remove Toews rookie season when he was a minus cfrel 19 year old, Toews CF% from 2009-2016 vs zetterberg is 50.8%, an edge over 8 seasons.

The 43% was nowhere near reality.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=649&withagainst=true&season=2007-16&sit=5v5

Ctrl+f Zetter

You can't just lop off seasons you don't like when you're talking about "career." Career is career. Your post is the lie.

 

[DanZ]

No, but it certainly puts context to the overall numbers.

From the site, here are the regular season year-by-year CF% numbers.

Year, 5v5 TOI, Toews's CF% against Zetterberg
2008, 40:37, 25.4%
2009, 18:49, 27.6%
2010, 24:02, 48.9%
2011, 33:41, 58.3%
2012, 19:06, 53.8%
2013, 13:38, 33.3%

Zetterberg obviously dominated Toews in 08 and 09 when Zetterberg was 27 and 28 while Toews was 19 and 20. After that, the matchup tended to favor Toews.

Yeah when Zetterberg came into his 30s and his defense completely deteriorated behind him. People don't seem to understand how much of an effect an elite D has on possession.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Not a first-ballot HHOFer, but maybe seven years after his retirement, that or when they run out of better players to put in he'll be in the hall, like when Gilmour got inducted.

 

[DanZ]

Your 43% comment was a complete lie. You can remove recent seasons. Over most intermediate ranges of 5+ years, toews wins it.

Nope. When Z was in his prime and had a defense behind him he owned him. When he started aging and his defense behind him completely deteriorated and Toews hit his prime he had an advantage. Seems like Toews is already declining though so you'll soon see what happens when people get older.

 

[DanZ]

Wrong. Z got absolutely snowed under with a pathetic 37% corsi. The only reason Toews had 4 points is pure luck - low on ice shootung percentage/howard playing well. Nothing to do with zetterberg. What zetterberg could control - possession - he failed miserably at.

Nope he canceled out Toews. Toews isn't the same level offensively so in your biased view point it's luck but in reality he just isn't as skilled. The fact that Toews only got 4 points against that terrible defense is embarrassing.

 

[Il Stugotz]

Well you've determined that Zetterberg is better than a player you all consider horribly overrated. Now it's time to figure out if he's a Hall of Famer!

 

[ChiHawk21]

Nope he canceled out Toews. Toews isn't the same level offensively so in your biased view point it's luck but in reality he just isn't as skilled. The fact that Toews only got 4 points against that terrible defense is embarrassing.

Toews outscored zetterberg, won the series, and had a better corsi..

I think toews is about exactly what zetterberg is as a player and is the captain of a 3 time cup winning team and has won at every level of his career which is why he gets the benefit of the doubt just like Brady>Manning

 

[The Toews Era*]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=649&withagainst=true&season=2007-16&sit=5v5

Ctrl+f Zetter

You can't just lop off seasons you don't like when you're talking about "career." Career is career. Your post is the lie.

Of course you can because your conclusion is still bs. Using toews 18 year old season when he wasnt a good possession player then using it to make broader claims about career is misleading. Post that season, from periods as significant as 09-16, Toews is ahead of zeterberg in head to head corsi. Your claim that zetterberg "dominated" him in possession is only applicable to 08, after which point Toews comes out ahead for 90% of his career. Disingenuous to make career claims off one or two seasons that were when Toews was 18. How did Zetterberg do in corsi when he was 18? Oh thats right we dont know because he was ice fishing in sweden until he was 23.

 

[The Toews Era*]

Nope he canceled out Toews. Toews isn't the same level offensively so in your biased view point it's luck but in reality he just isn't as skilled. The fact that Toews only got 4 points against that terrible defense is embarrassing.

Huh? Toews career sh% is like 15% and in that series it was 4%. Zetterberg got dominated and had to get extremely lucky just to break even. And take howard out for an apology dinner for letting him get barraged like that.

 

[DeYarmond Edison]

So strange the Toews somehow shows up in every thread. No matter what the subject matter.

 

[KJoe88]

Four actually.

Same.