Is Matt Murray Broken?

[JTG]

Regardless of the issue I think there’s too much risk to re-sign him to a long deal unless his season changes. I think if you trade him in the summer, even if he has a bad season there will still be a market, and we tandem Jarry + a vet for less combined cap hit than Murray alone would command.

Agreed. I'd give him 3-4 years, 6.5 per. I think that is a contract he will play up to. I honestly do think that by season end, Jarry is going to acquit himself, and there will be a real hard decision in the summer.

Murray is having a rough go, but this has happened to him in the past. He will come back. I like Jarry more, not because he is the hotter goaltender, but because of his game in general. He's much bigger, and has proven to be more durable. He is a throwback goaltender when it comes to the puckhandling aspect of his game. All of the things that made Murray great a few years ago (calm demeanor, efficient movement) Jarry does also.

We are actually right where you want to be when you draft numerous goaltenders. You always have a pipeline so you never have to overpay. If Jarry finishes with 30 games or so and has starter stats, I think it's a legitimate conversation that needs to be had. There is a team that will back up the Brinks truck for Murray. I am certain of it.

I have said it before but I think Jarry is actually calm cool and collected. Murray acts it but really isn't. I remember his weird excuses when Boeser owned his ass. I got to see a crack in his armour and facade.

Whatever he needs to do to get that mental toughness back, isn't working fast enough.

Murray does have a calm demeanor - sometimes too calm, IMO. I think Murray has shaky confidence sometimes though. When he's on you can feel his cockiness. When he's off, he plays like he's 5'10. Right now he's playing small and some of these goals he's letting in are the backbreaking variety.

 

[Vyruz Reaper]

The mystery we all want to crack. Seems to be a different player after the second cup.

More after his dad died imo

 

[Louis Hensler]

I posted Murray's monthly splits from this season a few pages back. His save percentage & GAA in October was 2.20/.923, which is great and essentially a continuation of last season's work. His November stats are obviously much worse and are definitely dragging his numbers down, but there's reason to be optimistic, in my opinion, that he can bounce back strong. It's just unfortunate that his ****ty play is coming at the same time as all of our good forwards and defensemen being out with injury.

Looked soft in the playoffs last year.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's inaccurate in regards to the 2017 playoffs. Fleury stood on his head prior to the Ottawa series. Ottawa series he lost a game and Sullivan went back to his starter, Murray, who was healthy by this point. I don't think it had anything to do with bad play on Fleury's part. Keeping Murray over Fleury was the right move. But that doesn't necessitate some of the hyperbole over Fleury that's taking place around here. Especially when we are talking about Murray having a major issue with consistency, just as Fleury did.

No, this is inaccurate, actually.

MAF lost two games and they started 1-2. He went into full melt down mode letting in 4 goals on 9 shots in the first period of game three.

Thats what he does when he’s about to go full flake and Sullivan knew what was coming...

Want to know how it ended if Murray wasn’t put in? See the 2018 cup finals.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Looked soft in the playoffs last year.

Yeah, he didn't play as well as he did in the second half of the regular season, but we were also thoroughly outclassed by the Islanders.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Agreed. I'd give him 3-4 years, 6.5 per. I think that is a contract he will play up to. I honestly do think that by season end, Jarry is going to acquit himself, and there will be a real hard decision in the summer.

Murray is having a rough go, but this has happened to him in the past. He will come back. I like Jarry more, not because he is the hotter goaltender, but because of his game in general. He's much bigger, and has proven to be more durable. He is a throwback goaltender when it comes to the puckhandling aspect of his game. All of the things that made Murray great a few years ago (calm demeanor, efficient movement) Jarry does also.

We are actually right where you want to be when you draft numerous goaltenders. You always have a pipeline so you never have to overpay. If Jarry finishes with 30 games or so and has starter stats, I think it's a legitimate conversation that needs to be had. There is a team that will back up the Brinks truck for Murray. I am certain of it.



Murray does have a calm demeanor - sometimes too calm, IMO. I think Murray has shaky confidence sometimes though. When he's on you can feel his cockiness. When he's off, he plays like he's 5'10. Right now he's playing small and some of these goals he's letting in are the backbreaking variety.

agree with this.

I don't know if I want to see this team commit to Murray at that cap anymore. I'm struggling to justify more than 5m/yr for him right now.

 

[ncm7772]

Murray struggles the past half dozen games and suddenly some folks are re-writing history about his contributions to those back to back Cups. Why am I not surprised?

Because it’s a criminal offense in the Pennsylvania Penal Law to support more than one goalie!

But on a serious note, you’re right. Murray is struggling badly now, and it’s concerning. But I think many are greatly overreacting.

 

[EightyOne]

Here's a question for Murray supporters,

Y'all keep saying, it's cool, he'll play better, he always gets okay numbers because he'll play lights out for two months to offset being a f***ing tire fire the rest of the year.

How the hell is that an argument to keep faith that a guy will deliver when he needs to?

 

[metalan2]

To win a Cup it takes full team defense - I don't care how good the goaltender is. The team did leave Fleury out to dry, and that's why they never won again. I don't think Murray was necessarily sheltered - Murray when we won was a very methodical goaltender who was almost never out of position and made big saves when needed. They system in front of him wasn't like the old New Jersey lock, but it was predicated on back pressure and the defensemen going back and moving the puck quickly and efficiently.

The tape is out on Murray now though, which it wasn't back then. I still think he is a top 15 goaltender, but right now he's having a rough go at it. He will be back.

This is wrong. Fleury was easily one the worst goalies in the league from 2010 on by any metric, especially the playoffs. Penguins would give up like 20 shots a game and control play every game. Fleury was a main reason we never won again from 2010-2015.

He didn't get good until Murray showed up.

 

[IcedCapp]

Here's a question for Murray supporters,

Y'all keep saying, it's cool, he'll play better, he always gets okay numbers because he'll play lights out for two months to offset being a ****ing tire fire the rest of the year.

How the hell is that an argument to keep faith that a guy will deliver when he needs to?

why do you keep any player who has a bad stretch?

 

[EightyOne]

why do you keep any player who has a bad stretch?

because there's 17 others to fill that void that plays for 10-30 mins and in a position that largely has zero effect on the team game

You can't do that with a bad goalie out there for 60 mins and in a position that a disproportionately huge effect on the team game

 

[IcedCapp]

because there's 17 others to fill that void that plays for 10-30 mins and in a position that largely has zero effect on the team game

You can't do that with a bad goalie out there for 60 mins and in a position that a disproportionately huge effect on the team game

Some of our better/best players have gone on extended slumps. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

More specifically/relevant: this is a goalie thing. It happens to them all. Horrible timing, yes, but based on history, it was bound to happen eventually.


I’ll also add: I don’t think this is related to his father’s death. I think a game against philly started this. I can’t remember which game specifically, but I remember philly taking a few runs at Murray and him getting injured.

Since then, I think he looks extremely uncomfortable every time people get near the net

 

[Honour Over Glory]

More after his dad died imo

No. He started to show more of that crack in his armour in the 2nd cup, then he had that stupid World Cup thing where he hurt his hand and then yeah the thing with his Dad happened, but he was also showing more frustration, being unhinged, in interviews he used to come off sort of cocky and arrogant which was whatever, I don't mind that in a goalie if he backs it up on the ice, but he was starting not to. It's like he bought into his own hype so much that his progression halted and then that Boeser highlight reel against him showed him getting unhinged and made comical excuses instead of just saying he had a bad game, he basically deflected and acted like it was all a fluke...which to me, personality wise, was like...is the dude really not comprehending that he played like ass and just chalked it up to "he fluked out."

Since then, he's been injured often, had some mystery injury last year where he came back and was solid, and then not so much in the playoffs where he was average at best. This year, he's been below average.

If Jarry continues to play well, I give him the same deal he gave Murray for 3x3 or hopefully at 2.5m per and see if Murray still wants to stick around or wants out after that. Because I would be perfectly fine with Jarry as the go to guy with a solid back-up to help mentor him. Jarry seems more coachable and affable.

 

[billybudd]

Some of our better/best players have gone on extended slumps. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

More specifically/relevant: this is a goalie thing. It happens to them all. Horrible timing, yes, but based on history, it was bound to happen eventually.

I'm not convinced Murray's problems aren't due to an escalating, years-long accumulation of physical injuries (he's been hurt in all kinds of ways since he took the starter job and doesn't really have a durable look about him), but you're right about the goalie thing where a good tender will sometimes just bomb for a while for reasons outsiders like us never figure out. There have been stretches in, for example, Henrik Lundqvist's career where he'd play like this for an extended period of time, then recover to have a phenomenal second half.

Murray isn't what Hank was, but it's still worth imagining how dumb the Rags would have looked if they had panic traded Lundqvist during what would ultimately prove to be nothing more than an extended slump.

 

[lastcupever75]

barrasso would struggle some during the years they won the cup. pieterangelo and wreggett both won huge games games in the playoffs for the team.
that doesn't that Tom wasn't the #1 goalie winning those cups. just like murray vs. fluery in the last 2 cups years.


and as far as hunkering down to play defense in front of murray. well, its the playoffs. thats exactly what you have to do.
mario and the high flying pens squad never would have won their 1st cup without doing the same. they were down 3-1 in the series vs the caps and then decided ,as a team, to start playing defense. Mario started to back check like he was Bob Gainey

 

[Ugene Magic]

This is wrong. Fleury was easily one the worst goalies in the league from 2010 on by any metric, especially the playoffs. Penguins would give up like 20 shots a game and control play every game. Fleury was a main reason we never won again from 2010-2015.

He didn't get good until Murray showed up.

And you are wrong.

Fleury, unlike the rest of the team or other metal cases, was back on track (not the best, but back on track) in 2013/14. How much support did he get from the team? The Pens decided not to score more than 1 goal the final 3 games. They lost 2-1 in game 7. He had 2 shutouts that series and he gave up 3 or more goals 3 times. Fleury is not the reason they lost.

Hello!!!

See, any goalie will crack if you give up countless odd man breaks, and Fleury deserves to be recognized for that just as Murray does.

Billybud mentions Lundqvist. Even he had lapses/cracks in his armour and fell off the wagon. But he was a guy playing 60+/70+ games a season.

For how many times the Pens wrecked him, he responded twice back.

Yeah, he like any other goalie shares responsibility in losing a series. Like I have said many times, they are the last, LAST DEFENCE to stopping goals from happening. What leads up to being in that position is what cost them.

We in kind get to enjoy these.

The Pens owned Lundqvist for many years, or should I say Geno did.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Bad team games existed for Fleury but not Murray, then? Is that the point, here?

Got it.

 

[vikingGoalie]

It's not that at all.

I want Murray to succeed. He is their best chance at gaining another cup because he does have that experience the other 2 don't. We simply can't get rid of him, but he really needs to be at top shape if this teams going to be going for it. The team needs him to steal a game or a few to help that cause.

At this point he simply isn't doing it.

Plus, wasn't Buckley his goalie coach before he got up to the big Pens? I'm sure he was. That's scratched off the list as to reasons he's off.

I disagree, mainly because sure he was Buckley's personel coach while Bales was in place. Now I dunno for sure, but, Bales had to have some sort of oversight on Buckley and what things he had Murray working on. It would seem odd to me if Buckley was working for Bales but was totally doing his own thing.

Of course it could be correlation not causation on Bales leaving and Murray's level of play decreasing. But regardless I do think a new voice as goalie coach and probably a psychologist needs to be introduced to turn Murray around. I'll keep saying it. Murray is not processing the game at the same speed as he did before. Is it a psychological thing? Is it a physiological thing (injury or effect of concussions)

who knows, the worst case would be that Murray is just not that good and he's another in a long line of goalies who got hot for a time and went on a run but then fell to earth later on. I really hope that is not the case. Still think we wait until the off season to offer him anything Jarry/DeSmith combo can carry us for a time if need be. Best case this all blows over as noise in november and murray wins a conn smythe.

 

[vikingGoalie]

Bad team games existed for Fleury but not Murray, then? Is that the point, here?

Got it.

while your point is true. except for these last two games the penguins have been dominant on the ice in chances for, expected goals for, etc, etc. they have actually been really really good on the ice in front of Murray (and Jarry) this season overall.

In the world of what have you done for me lately. The history of uneven play is relevant, but this season. Do you think the team has been demonstrably worse only when Murray plays and not Jarry? I mean Jarry fell to earth a bit his last game, but you can't ignore the difference between the two in front of the same team. Jarry is clearly playing a level above Murray, Murray is literally 41st out of 49 goalies that qualify to be listed on espn's site for save percentage. (Jarry is tied for 7th) You can dress that pig anyway you want but it's still a pig.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I take no issue with the way you are arguing your point. It's consistent and cohesive and pertains mostly to this season... an incomplete season I might add... and not to what has or hasn't been done in the past.

Honestly I just get irritated at this rehabilitation of MAF every time this subject comes up. I get it... he is a great guy, played here a lot of years and generally acquitted himself well. I LIKE Fleury. But his issues were his issues. This idea that the team was dragging the poor guy down while he was regularly taking adventures behind his own net at the worst possible times and lunging around his crease like a person with his hair on fire is utterly ridiculous. There were years-worth of examples. Shit he did it again in Vegas!

I'm perfectly willing to talk about Murray's issues this season and what it could spell when it comes to his upcoming contract. But this constant re-imagining of MAF is asinine. I'm thankful for his contributions here... very thankful. But he is what he is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, the problem I have here isn't criticizing Murray, it's the Fleury fanboys blatantly trying to rewrite history to go after Murray. Actually criticize Murray for his poor play, trying to say that Fleury hasn't been a massive playoff choke for a vast majority of his career is just lying. There's no other way to put it, it's a flat out lie.

From the 2010-2014 playoff runs, Fleury had a .894 save% and a .302 quality start% in 44 games. He had nearly as many really bad starts (starts below .850 save%) as quality starts (starts above league average save%). Hell, Fleury wasn't even good in their 2009 run, they won in spite of Fleury. You don't need to try to rewrite history and say Fleury wasn't a massive choke to talk about Murray.

 

[vikingGoalie]

@Empoleon8771 I agree in general, that using Fleury to bash Murray is non-sensical.
I do disagree that we won in 2009 *despite* fleury. Fleury was pretty bad in 3 games against the redwings, however he was lights out great in 4 games. Absolutely it's an uneven performance, but I would argue that Fleury had a taller task against a damn good redwing team then when we mowed down San Jose or when Rinne absolutely imploded for at least 2 games. If the Redwings tie it right there who knows how OT goes down, Crosby was on one leg and the Redwings were coming back with pressure in that game. A 95.8% save percentage game while getting out shot and making a last second save against Lidstorm of all people should not be discounted because Fleury let some gong show goals in off the back boards in previous games.
Nor should Murray be overly criticized against Nashville, he had 2 dreadful games but finished up with 2 shutouts.

Still one has nothing to do with the other (Murray's performance vs past adventures with MAF), just disagreeing that we won in 2009 despite fleury is all.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Bad team games existed for Fleury but not Murray, then? Is that the point, here?

Got it.

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm implying for all goalies.

Don't get all booboo faced.

 

[EightyOne]

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm implying for all goalies.

Don't get all booboo faced.

So then why commit term or money to goalies?

 

[Gurglesons]

And you are wrong.

Fleury, unlike the rest of the team or other metal cases, was back on track (not the best, but back on track) in 2013/14. How much support did he get from the team? The Pens decided not to score more than 1 goal the final 3 games. They lost 2-1 in game 7. He had 2 shutouts that series and he gave up 3 or more goals 3 times. Fleury is not the reason they lost.

Hello!!!

See, any goalie will crack if you give up countless odd man breaks, and Fleury deserves to be recognized for that just as Murray does.

Billybud mentions Lundqvist. Even he had lapses/cracks in his armour and fell off the wagon. But he was a guy playing 60+/70+ games a season.

For how many times the Pens wrecked him, he responded twice back.

Yeah, he like any other goalie shares responsibility in losing a series. Like I have said many times, they are the last, LAST DEFENCE to stopping goals from happening. What leads up to being in that position is what cost them.

We in kind get to enjoy these.

The Pens owned Lundqvist for many years, or should I say Geno did.

Lundqvist has won 2 of the 4 playoff series he played against us?