Is Jim Benning now the worst GM in the NHL?

Is Jim Benning now the worst GM in the NHL?


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MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
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JB didn't have to rubber stamped it. He could of went against his scouting department. Look at the Oilers in 2012, most of the scouting staffs wanted Murray but Mactavish drafted Yakapov anyways. There is not one scouting staff. I highly doubt every scouting staff wanted Petey. He could of listened to someone else. Jb Makes the final call and got it right with Pettersson.

I see a double standard here. You are giving credit to the scouting department and not Benning. But Benning get the blames for the other players he signed or traded for. Why not blame the pro scouting? When JB makes a trade or signs a player. More than one person is involved. There is a clip on YouTube before the Kesler trade happened. Not just one person is involved. They have meeting before a decision is made.

The good transactions give the scouting department the credit. Bad transactions blame it on JB. Doesn't work like that. Either he gets credit and the blame for all the players or none.

Green wanted Pouliot. I guess we should blame Green for Pouliot and not JB.

Ridiculous

Pro scouting comes pretty much directly from the GM’s office and his white board. Yes, there are other people (mainly Weisbrod) involved but these players are scouted, targeted, and negotiated for by Benning.

Amateur scouting is a much different animal with far more moving parts and *far* more people involved. In most organizations most of the time, the GM just rubber-stamps the recommendations of his staff. Benning is more involved because of his background but most of the same stuff holds.

And the problem is that we have a pretty good idea of how most of these picks happened. In some cases we have multiple sources (and video) confirming Benning was driving the pick. In others, it’s clearly the scouting staff. And the latter collection is where most of the good picks happen.

Does he get credit for rubber-stamping the Pettersson pick? Sure. But let’s not pretend that’s a huge feather in his cap or comes close to justifying his incompetence at every other aspect of his job.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,653
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Vancouver, BC
It doesn't even matter.

The idea that nobody had ever heard of Elias Pettersson and Jim benning had to skate through frozen forests for six days and wrestle a bear to discover This kid playing pond hockey with penguins and then personally smuggle him out of the country and teach him North American rules, it's so God dammed stupid.

Everyone had heard of Elias Pettersson and his statistics placed him with Matthews and Mcdavid among the most elite players available in recent drafts. He fell to five because dinosaur scouts thought he was "too skinny" and luckily we got "unlucky" in the draft lottery and we were able to pick him up at five. What ever credit you give for this is like the bare minimum amount of credit it's possible to give for something, like a shortstop correctly fielding a ground ball. I don't ****ing care about it even if Benning overruled all the scouts on it. Benning and the scouting staff are collectively paid tens of millions of dollars for these decisions and its not impressive in the slightest.

I just can’t, ever, get over the fact that people think the same guy who thought Gudbranson was a good player with a good first pass after watching him play *in the NHL* for 5 years could simultaneously be providing huge value to the organization by making genius projections of what an 18 y/o will look like years from now.

It’s just too idiotic for words. We have 5 years of pro scouting to empirically prove that Jim Benning is really, really, really bad at evaluating hockey players.
 

Melvin

21/12/05
Sep 29, 2017
15,198
28,055
Montreal, QC
I just can’t, ever, get over the fact that people think the same guy who thought Gudbranson was a good player with a good first pass after watching him play *in the NHL* for 5 years could simultaneously be providing huge value to the organization by making genius projections of what an 18 y/o will look like years from now.

It’s just too idiotic for words. We have 5 years of pro scouting to empirically prove that Jim Benning is really, really, really bad at evaluating hockey players.

Well, yes. Of course. That should go without saying.

Benning isn't even capable of evaluating the players on his own f***ing team, let alone teenagers playing in Sweden.
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
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Pro scouting comes pretty much directly from the GM’s office and his white board. Yes, there are other people (mainly Weisbrod) involved but these players are scouted, targeted, and negotiated for by Benning.

Amateur scouting is a much different animal with far more moving parts and *far* more people involved. In most organizations most of the time, the GM just rubber-stamps the recommendations of his staff. Benning is more involved because of his background but most of the same stuff holds.

And the problem is that we have a pretty good idea of how most of these picks happened. In some cases we have multiple sources (and video) confirming Benning was driving the pick. In others, it’s clearly the scouting staff. And the latter collection is where most of the good picks happen.

Does he get credit for rubber-stamping the Pettersson pick? Sure. But let’s not pretend that’s a huge feather in his cap or comes close to justifying his incompetence at every other aspect of his job.

Like I said there is not just one scouting staff. Not every scouting will want the same player. He still needs to pick the right player. He could of listened to someone else or pick his own guy.

"Amateur scouting different animal" fair enough. So Do you blame JB for drafting Juolevi and Virtanen? If the answer is No that means you will think JB was driving that pick. Can you provide a video or any legit resources to back that up?

About the pro scouting? I agree Jb negotiate the trade. I dont think JB does all the targeting and scouting? A few messages ago you wrote "the pro scouting couldn't target any good defencemen" so it's not all JB fault.
 

timw33

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Nov 18, 2007
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I dont think JB does all the targeting and scouting? A few messages ago you wrote "the pro scouting couldn't target any good defencemen" so it's not all JB fault.

This is like.....textbook what a GM's job is. Pro scouting and evaluating NHL level talent is the number one job of an NHL GM—it's table stakes and he forgot his ante.
 
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rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
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Jim Benning was raving about Juolevi as far back as December of 2015, that's how i could tell we were picking him.

Also how is suspect it was Jim pushing to select him. He was very invested in Juolevi maybe moreso then any other pick.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
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I find it interesting that you lump me in with the "anti-Benning" guys which further illustrates my point made earlier; when it comes to Canuck management you are either on the bus or off the bus, there can be no middle ground. Which is where you will find me most days...

I could be wrong but I thought I remembered you saying something along the lines of not caring if Benning gets fired. Now that I think about it that would make you more Benning-neutral than anything else. Definitely not pro-Benning. Maybe I was falling victim to the “either you’re with me or against me” mentality but I absolutely didn’t mean to lump you in with the Benning-haters. That’s a whole different thing entirely. I really do respect the few anti-Benning posters who aren’t hateful in their rhetoric. Sorry about that.

For me, to be considered pro-Benning you should at least think he’s a top 10 GM in the league and I don’t see any others taking that position.
 

Horse McHindu

They call me Horse.....
Jun 21, 2014
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1. Yes, I didn’t have the ESP required to know that a top prospect would have career-threatening back injuries.

2. When healthy last year Vilardi was the most dominant player in the CHL. There was nothing wrong with my projection there.

3. I said *repeatedly* before, during, and after the draft that Pettersson looked good on paper but that I couldn’t have a strong opinion of him as I’d seen him play once at the WJCs and honestly couldn’t remember how he played. So no, I’m not going to have a strong take on a player I don’t know.

4. I’m not paid a 7-figure salary to be an NHL GM.

5. Again, the overwhelming circumstantial evidence indicates that Benning did not want to draft Pettersson but eventually acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

6. The notion that someone like Benning who is the most comically inept pro scout in the NHL and can’t even figure out which players are effective when they’re fully developed could somehow be a Rain Man who sees things other people don’t see when it comes to the much more difficult science of projecting teenagers is just utterly ludicrous. It’s like saying that a mouth-breather who has to count on his fingers to figure out 3x4 is capable of nuclear physics.


Lmao @ #5.

So basically,

1) If Benning has success with a 1st round pick, It’s due to the efforts of his scouting team and not Benning himself. The Scouting team made a good pick in spite of Benning.

2) Success with later round picks are all due to Brackett. Benning be damned.

Benning deserves zero credit or zero praise for anything he has done, but deserves all of the criticism.

Sounds logical.
 

mathonwy

Positively #toxic
Jan 21, 2008
19,113
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Lmao @ #5.

So basically,

1) If Benning has success with a 1st round pick, It’s due to the efforts of his scouting team and not Benning himself. The Scouting team made a good pick in spite of Benning.

2) Success with later round picks are all due to Brackett. Benning be damned.

Benning deserves zero credit or zero praise for anything he has done, but deserves all of the criticism.

Sounds logical.

Dude, I think you got it.

Congratulations!
41.gif
 

Johnny Canucker

Registered User
Jan 4, 2009
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Clearly - Benning made the Virtanen and Juolevi picks whereas Hughes and Pettersson were Brackett selections. :D

You’re expected to make the right pick in the top 10 if you are a competent GM. We are talking about why he’s a bottom GM.

Those are 2 big reasons.
 

Horse McHindu

They call me Horse.....
Jun 21, 2014
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You’re expected to make the right pick in the top 10 if you are a competent GM. We are talking about why he’s a bottom GM.

Those are 2 big reasons.

If you look back in history, I think most, perhaps all, teams that successfully rebuilt after being bottom feeders for a few years had a few stinkers for picks.

In the case of Benning, he flat out blew other teams into the Pacific Ocean with that Pettersson pick.......and its looking more and more likely that Quinn Hughes will be the toast of his class as well outside of everyone named Rasmus Dahlin. Brock Boeser also goes Top 10 in a 2015 redraft.

Or perhaps Team Tank has it right. All of our successful draft picks was due to Bracket’s brilliance. In reality, Benning was in Czechoslovakia trying to coax Peter Nedved to come out of retirement. I heard this from a friend who has a cousin whose brother in law works at CanucksArmy.

Go back to the Summer of 2018: People on Team Tank were literally tearing up because Jim Benning passed on Jack “generational talent” Wise and instead, opted for Tyler Madden. You can’t even make up this comedic gold. This place never ceases to amaze me.

“Mark my words guys, Casey Mittelstadt’s game won’t translate at the NHL level,” LMAO.
 
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Peter10

Registered User
Dec 7, 2003
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So if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the Canucks have had one of the lowest point totals in the league during their rebuilding stage? :o :o :o

Interesting.

In other news, it was revealed that Shaquille O’Neil has had a bigger shoe size than the average Japanese man over the past 4 years.


You mean in their "transition" stage?





Lowest point total in the league while trying to make the playoffs.
 
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Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
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So if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the Canucks have had one of the lowest point totals in the league during their rebuilding stage? :o :o :o

Interesting.

In other news, it was revealed that Shaquille O’Neil has had a bigger shoe size than the average Japanese man over the past 4 years.
Actually more interesting is that many of the teams around them in 'chart' do not spend anywhere close to the cap every season. So Benning loses AND spends to the limit. Don't care though as it's Aquamans money but still interesting. Good thing we're acquiring all those picks by taking on garbage contracts from other teams.
 

Motte and Bailey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2017
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But as we all know, according to you, he wasn’t responsible for the Jared McCann pick since the pick was acquired from Anaheim :laugh:

But yet you, who has the audacity to debate dishonestly and in bad faith, do not respect others! Why should anyone respect you?

Benning is responsible for the McCann pick, and I never said otherwise, but I’m not responsible for your lack of reading comprehension.
 

Dr Good Vibes

Registered User
Jan 18, 2010
2,441
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What interests me about this question is how you even determine the skill of a GM. I found this article from ESPN ranking the top NHL GMs. ESPN is notoriously bad for their hockey coverage, but I wanted to see what they said. They wrote the article around the deadline last year.

They have Bergevin as one of the two worst GMs in the league, along with Chiarelli. Obviously, Bergevin’s in contention for GM of the year this year, and he’ll probably win barring a ‘critical-failure’ meltdown by the habs.

What I found more interesting was the inclusion of Jim Rutherford in the top tier. Jim Rutherford built the Carolina Hurricanes, but they’ve yet to find success. It’s his work with the Penguins, inheriting Malkin and Crosby along the way, that apparently earned him top-tier honors.

But, if you look at the body of work in Pittsburgh, I’m not sure everything Rutherford touches turns to gold. He made some good trades, and some bad trades, but really there’s only a few key trades that matter in terms of helping win back to back cups. That's what I ended up focusing on for the majority of this post; how teams at different stages of development trade, and how those trades shape their futures.
Trading James Neal for Patric Hornqvist was Rutherford’s first move and it’s a good one. Hornqvist is cheaper, younger, and doesn’t give up all that much in terms of production. Even better, Nashville no longer has Neal, but Pittsburg has retained Hornqvist. Hornqvist has scored about fifty points every year in Pittsburg, and Neal has only scored more than fifty points once since the trade. All in all, a homerun success for Rutherford and the Pens in hindsight.

One move that I think is more questionable, but not necessarily a sign of bad management, is the trade for Lovejoy. Pens gave up the younger Despres for Lovejoy, which looks really bad on the surface. Less bad if you consider that perhaps all parties knew about Despres’ concussion problems, which have virtually ended his NHL career since this trade.

Next comes the deal that’s really Rutherford’s claim to fame. He trades Kasperi Kapanen, Scott Harrington, Nick Spaling, Conditional 1st and a 3rd rounder for Phil Kessel, a few garbage depth players, and a second round pick. This is a really good trade, especially with retention on Kessel’s salary. Kapanen looks like a player, but the rest of the pieces there are replacement parts. Toronto traded that first (30th) and it became Sam Steel.

Later that month, Rutherford victimized the Vancouver Canucks by trading impending RFA Brandon Sutter for Bonino, a decent prospect in Clendening (at the time), and a second round pick. The Penguins have no room for a middle six center making almost five million dollars, so they shipped out Sutter and got a cheap replacement in Bonino, a second rounder, and (at the time) a good prospect out of it.

Later on he made moves like trading for Hagelin. Picked up Schultz and Oleksiak for two fourth rounders. Those were shrewd moves.

These moves set up the Penguins for back to back cup wins and everyone toasted Rutherford on his success. Most of the major pieces of the Pens that won the cup were already there. Matt Murray, Crosby, Letang, and Malkin were all there. Of course, adding depth is important, but I’m not sure you can say Kessel won them the cup himself. He did it in part with the high-end pieces already there.

He also made the, IMO, questionable move of trading a first and Oscar Sundqvist for Reaves and a second. Although, the trade looks better in the big picture. Reaves then got moved on in that three-way deal that netted the Pens Brassard.

Rutherford’s a very active GM in trades, and how he did in the draft doesn’t even come up because it’s irrelevant. The Penguins aren’t being built through the draft. He took a team with a very strong foundation and built it into a bonafide champion-quality team by making shrewd trades to acquire guys that filled roles he needed. The Schultz and Oleksiak trades stand out, where he added two everyday NHL defensemen for two 4ths, one condition.

To compare with Benning, let’s now look at a rebuilding team that rose to the top in the Toronto Maple Leafs. I’m starting in 2015 with the hiring of Lou Lam.

First trade Lou Lam made was to ship out five garbage depth players for Michael Grabner. Next, a five-player trade with Ottawa, both ways, that includes Dion Phaneuf and his disgusting contract. Toronto doesn’t get much value back, only big name is Jeff Cowen, but they do get a second round pick. Next, they ship out Matthias for a fourth. After that, Spaling and Polak to the sharks for Raffi Torres, another second rounder and another fourth.

They pick up a third second and a third fourth by shipping out Winnik and Reimer.

In June of 2016, the Leafs trade out draft picks for the first time after stockpiling them. They trade a first and a second for Freddie Andersen. A very strong trade in hindsight. I think one lesson here is, if you’re going to trade first and second rounders, you NEED to get quality roster players back. If you mess that up, bad news.

Everything else, the Leafs achieved through the draft. Now they’re looking like a team with a bright future. Obviously, signing Tavares helps but they were trending upwards before that. Only one trade was made where the Leafs shipped out significant draft picks for a roster player. That’s for Freddie Andersen, and a trade I think most armchair Gms would make again in hindsight.

This brings us to everyone’s favorite problem child, Jim Benning. When you look at the prices being paid to acquire value, there’s a stark difference between Rutherford, Lou Lam, and Benning. Rutherford picks up roster quality players in exchange for dust. Lou Lam only trades significant draft picks for what will become his number one goalie.

Let’s look at GM Benning’s major acquisitions, and I note as soon as I open his transaction history that he’s been in charge longer than either Lou Lam or Rutherford, starting his job in 2014.

His first transaction is to trade Jason Garrison, someone called Jeff Costello, and a seventh to Tampa for a second rounder. That looks like Lou Lam’s approach, ship out veterans for picks. Next, Benning trades a third for Dorsett. That doesn’t look like either team’s history of moves, except for maybe Rutherford’s ill-conceived notion that Reaves is worth a first. At no point did the Leaf’s give up a third-round pick during Lou Lam’s tenure.

Next, we have what is without a doubt the worst trade any of these three GMs made. A third rounder and Ryan Kesler for a first rounder, Sbisa, Bonino, and a third. Benning gave up a high-end second line center for a first and third essentially, Sbisa being a replacement level defenseman and Bonino getting shipped off not long after for a middling six center in Sutter. This is just bleeding quality from the roster. There’s a parallel between the Canucks trading Kesler and the Penguins trading Sutter. Kesler was a far superior player to Sutter at the time of the trade, but Sutter returned fairly similar value in a top d prospect, a cheaper, cap-controlled center, and a second rounder. Considering how late Anaheim’s pick was destined to be, not so different in value. Overall, an underwhelming return for a player like Kesler.

That’s when things start getting really ugly for Vancouver and Jim Benning. A second rounder for Linden Vey is another terrible trade. Lou Lam has no parallel moves on his resume, he built his team through the draft which meant trading for picks, not trading picks for replacement level players. Linden Vey’s not playing in the NHL anymore. Next, we have another head scratcher, where the Canucks trade Alexandre Mallet (second round pick) and a third-round pick for Andrey Pedan. Pedan’s not in the organization anymore. Again, you just don’t see this during Lou Lam’s time in Toronto. He trades players for picks, not picks for players who never make the NHL.

Next, we have a trade that drove me nuts when it happened. Forsling for Clendening. I liked Forsling more back then, and considering he’s played in the NHL while Clendening looks like a bust, I’d say I was right. Another trade where we’re just bleeding value. You can’t trade a young defenseman like that and not get a roster player or eventual roster player back. I’d sure prefer Forsling over Pouliot on our team right now.

Then Benning trades a second for Sven Baertschi. Again, Lou Lam just didn’t do trades like this. He traded players for young projects, never picks, except in the case of Andersen. I don’t mind this trade as much as some of the others, just because Sven at least still plays with the Canucks, but that second rounder became Rasmus Andersson who’s looking like a player. Another defenseman I’d take on the Canucks in a second.

Finally, the Canucks acquire a third and seventh by shipping out Eddie Lack to Carolina. This is a year into Jim Benning’s tenure and he’s traded away as many picks as he’s stockpiled. We also acquire a seventh for McNally, a nothing deal, and a second for Bieksa, which isn’t bad at the time considering KB looked to be on his last legs.

After this, we ship out a fifth with Kassian for the honor of dressing Brandon Prust. Bleeding more picks for replacement players.

Finally, the Sutter deal. We ship out Bonino (so a significant portion of the Kesler return), Clendening (forsling), and a second rounder for Brandon Sutter and a conditional third. This trade is terrible for the canucks. We’re giving up another second round pick, the dregs left over from Kesler, and our only decent defense prospect at the time for Brandon Sutter; a middle six center with a high cap hit.
Of course, we haven’t given up enough draft picks so we package former first round pick Nicklas Jensen and a 6th rounder for Emerson Etem. Giving up another late pick for a player who’s not with the Canucks anymore.

That’s not enough tho, we trade another fifth rounder for Philip Larsen, another replacement level player who’s not with the canucks anymore.

I actually like both the Dahlen and Goldobin trades. These seem to match the moves made by Lou Lam more closely, giving up vets for quality prospects. Despite the fact neither of these guys has been a home run, I think the moves were good in theory.

After trading a third for Pedan a few years back, we package Pedan and a fourth to pick up Derick Pouliot. Again, we’re bleeding draft picks here to plug a hole we wouldn’t have had if we just held onto Forsling.

Next, Benning makes a bunch of small trades for Leipsic type players. We do pick up a sixth in the recent Nilsson trade.

In summary, I wanted to point out the different roles of trading between a championship contender and a rebuilder/bubble team. Lou Lam dealt draft picks carefully, and always made sure he got a surefire roster player in return when shipping one out. Rutherford traded picks more willingly, and he picked up some quality for basically dust. Benning ships out draft picks for players who might, someday, if we’re lucky, become roster players. This is why so many of his trades look terrible in hindsight. He’s a river gambler who bets on replacement level players showing unexpected upside.

I personally think our drafting’s been much improved under Benning when compared to Gillis, but it’s a complicated question. How much of that is picking higher in the draft and how much of that is Benning? I do think the way he trades second, thirds, and fourth-round picks for non-roster players is terrible. It’s a good way to bleed your roster dry.

I don’t think Benning’s the worst GM in the league, but based on his trades alone, he’s definitely in the conversation. I do think that Benning would be better suited to running a contender/boarderline championship team like Rutherford given his tendency to trade draft picks. I don't think he's a good fit for a rebuild.
 
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Horse McHindu

They call me Horse.....
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Actually more interesting is that many of the teams around them in 'chart' do not spend anywhere close to the cap every season. So Benning loses AND spends to the limit. Don't care though as it's Aquamans money but still interesting. Good thing we're acquiring all those picks by taking on garbage contracts from other teams.

Canucks paid that extra money for veteran leadership. It’s been said by wise hockey pundits that a good rebuild will often take between 5-7 years.

We shall soon see if the investment in veteran leadership paid its dividends. The Canucks unofficially began their rebuild in 2014 when they traded Luongo. By this definition, we should be “seeing things” sometime between Trade Deadline 2019 and Trade Deadline 2021.

As far as spending to the cap goes, like you said.....it’s Aqua’s money and he can do what he wants with it. Clearly - this management group believes in the value of paying for veteran leadership.

As far as cap management goes, let’s see if this team has actual cap problems and cap complications once they re-up their new core (Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, etc.). THAT is when we will see the REAL test of this management group’s cap management.

Teams like Toronto and Edmonton look like they will be in tough over these coming years with their cap. Tampa Bay is yet another team. Will Vancouver be in the same boat? Time will tell.

Judgement Day is coming for Vancouver. Trade Deadline 2019-Trade Deadline 2021.
 
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