Is Jim Benning now the worst GM in the NHL?

[Canucks1096]

This tells me you havent really watched a game from 15-17 when Sutter was constantly used in offense assignments (f.e. on the wing with the Sedins) while Bo was doing PK work.

And signing an over the hill forward to a 6-year deal (for 36m nonetheless) is not a fill in until the young guys are ready. Seriously, you make yourself look terrible when you try to defend things like this.

Sutter 2016/2017 season 1.53 average per a game on the PK

Horvat 2016/2017 season 1.49 per a game on the PK

Sutter 2015/2016 only played 20 games.

Sutter 2016/2017 most mins played was with Granlund and Eriksson. Sutter only played 13.8% of the time was with the Sedins at even strength. Only a about 1/6 of Sutter even strength shift was with the Sedins.

Let me know if you want me to provide some references on where I got these figures from.

 

[MS]

Sutter 2016/2017 season 1.53 average per a game on the PK

Horvat 2016/2017 season 1.49 per a game on the PK

Sutter 2015/2016 only played 20 games.

Sutter 2016/2017 most mins played was with Granlund and Eriksson. Sutter only played 13.8% of the time was with the Sedins at even strength. Only a about 1/6 of Sutter even strength shift was with the Sedins.

Let me know if you want me to provide some references on where I got these figures from.

Eriksson in 16-17 was a freshly signed $36 million 30-goal scorer and Granlund was being used as a skill offensive guy.

Sutter spent most of that season either centering the 2nd line or as a winger on the top line. And was a mainstay on the top PP unit from game 1 to game 82. And he was a complete and utter black hole and a liability in how he was used.

 

[rypper]

You can look at the two players usage over the course of WD tenure and see that they are very similar. Same kind of zone starts, similar PK usage, but with Sutter getting a bigger share of the powerplay time.

You would think that if Sutter was really brought in to shelter Bo or "relief pressure" there would be a bigger discrepancy in usage.

 

[Horse McHindu]

This tells me you havent really watched a game from 15-17 when Sutter was constantly used in offense assignments (f.e. on the wing with the Sedins) while Bo was doing PK work.

And signing an over the hill forward to a 6-year deal (for 36m nonetheless) is not a fill in until the young guys are ready. Seriously, you make yourself look terrible when you try to defend things like this.

1) Sutter wasn’t “constantly” used to play with the twins. He was used there for sizeable stretches, but certainly not the entire time. He was used predominantly as a 2nd line C which allowed Horvat to develop comfortably (while still being pushed) in a lesser role. We are seeing the fruits of those results today (for Horvat).

2) Bo was used more for the PK when Sutter went down injury. Sutter has had his fair share of injuries while he’s been with us unfortunately. Still - the idea of bringing Sutter in was to not over exert Horvat and take some pressure off of him. For the most part, this helped Horvat become the player that he is today.

3) Eriksson will be relatively easy to move and/or bury in the minors after July 1st 2020. 31 of his 36 million will have been paid out. Eriksson, will either be moved to a team looking to make the cap floor, or he’ll be buried in the minors where he’d likely choose retirement (ie the Mogilny/NJD treatment). LE’s deal was a secretive 4 year deal. Modern day cap circumvention at its finest.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Eriksson in 16-17 was a freshly signed $36 million 30-goal scorer and Granlund was being used as a skill offensive guy.

Sutter spent most of that season either centering the 2nd line or as a winger on the top line. And was a mainstay on the top PP unit from game 1 to game 82. And he was a complete and utter black hole and a liability in how he was used.

His presence on the 2nd line allowed Horvat to grow his game by not being over exerted. Even in a 2nd line capacity, Sutter took on a lot of the defensive assignments that took pressure off of Horvat which allowed Horvat to develop a bit more (something Bonino would NOT have been able to do....in terms of the defensive assignments. That’s why Bones was moved).

Sutter has been underwhelming as a Canuck without question, but his presence is what really allowed Horvat to grow.

 

[Canucks1096]

Eriksson in 16-17 was a freshly signed $36 million 30-goal scorer and Granlund was being used as a skill offensive guy.

Sutter spent most of that season either centering the 2nd line or as a winger on the top line. And was a mainstay on the top PP unit from game 1 to game 82. And he was a complete and utter black hole and a liability in how he was used.

That season the Horvat line and the Sutter line was like a 2A or 2B or 3A or 3B. Sutter wasn't used more at even strength. They pretty much had the same even strength minutrs. Sutter had 14.19 and Horvat 14.15. Sutter had 43% O zone starts and Horvat 47% O zone starts.

Willy likes to rotate 4 lines and sometimes didn't even match lines. Sutter took the most defensive zone faceoffs out of all the centers.

 

[Horse McHindu]

That season the Horvat line and the Sutter line was like a 2A or 2B or 3A or 3B. Sutter wasn't used more at even strength. They pretty much had the same even strength minutrs. Sutter had 14.19 and Horvat 14.15. Sutter had 43% O zone starts and Horvat 47% O zone starts.

Willy likes to rotate 4 lines and sometimes didn't even match lines. Sutter took the most defensive zone faceoffs out of all the centers.

^^^^^

The best post in this thread by a country mile.

 

[pgj98m3]

His presence on the 2nd line allowed Horvat to grow his game by not being over exerted. Even in a 2nd line capacity, Sutter took on a lot of the defensive assignments that took pressure off of Horvat which allowed Horvat to develop a bit more (something Bonino would NOT have been able to do....in terms of the defensive assignments. That’s why Bones was moved).

Sutter has been underwhelming as a Canuck without question, but his presence is what really allowed Horvat to grow.

Except when Sutter was out we saw what Horvat could do.......nice try

 

[Horse McHindu]

Except when Sutter was out we saw what Horvat could do.......nice try

Yes, Horvat made mistakes but grew through trial and error. No complaints from me.

 

[MS]

His presence on the 2nd line allowed Horvat to grow his game by not being over exerted. Even in a 2nd line capacity, Sutter took on a lot of the defensive assignments that took pressure off of Horvat which allowed Horvat to develop a bit more (something Bonino would NOT have been able to do....in terms of the defensive assignments. That’s why Bones was moved).

Sutter has been underwhelming as a Canuck without question, but his presence is what really allowed Horvat to grow.

Horvat was taking all the defensive assignments in the first half of the season. Sutter took no heat off him at all.

I’ve been very complimentary of Sutter’s performance in 17-18, but acting like he was sheltering Horvat in 15-17 is just not what happened.

Also how clueless do you have to be to think Bonino couldn’t have done that? He’s literally been playing that exact role for the last 4 years on great teams. While generating far better offensive results.

 

[Peter10]

That season the Horvat line and the Sutter line was like a 2A or 2B or 3A or 3B. Sutter wasn't used more at even strength. They pretty much had the same even strength minutrs. Sutter had 14.19 and Horvat 14.15. Sutter had 43% O zone starts and Horvat 47% O zone starts.

Willy likes to rotate 4 lines and sometimes didn't even match lines. Sutter took the most defensive zone faceoffs out of all the centers.

The point I was referring to was that someone claimed Sutter was "taking defensive assignments" which is simply not true. I also did not say that Sutter played exclusively in offensive roles but that he was used there constantly (which does not equal always).

15-16	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	43.0	57.0
Brandon Sutter	52.1	47.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

While it got a bit better in 16-17 its not like Horvat got the "easy" minutes.

16-17	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	47.4	52.6
Brandon Sutter	43.8	56.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Combined stats (from NaturalStatTrick):

Player	OZ Starts	NZ Starts	DZ Starts	On The Fly Starts	OZ Start %	OZ Faceoffs	NZ Faceoffs	DZ Faceoffs	OZ Faceoff %
Bo Horvat	596	585	750	2069	44.28	942	853	1311	41.81
Brandon Sutter	419	412	444	1217	48.55	700	584	769	47.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Now tell me again that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat and take the primary defense assignments.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The point I was referring to was that someone claimed Sutter was "taking defensive assignments" which is simply not true. I also did not say that Sutter played exclusively in offensive roles but that he was used there constantly (which does not equal always).

15-16	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	43.0	57.0
Brandon Sutter	52.1	47.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

While it got a bit better in 16-17 its not like Horvat got the "easy" minutes.

16-17	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	47.4	52.6
Brandon Sutter	43.8	56.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Combined stats (from NaturalStatTrick):

Player	OZ Starts	NZ Starts	DZ Starts	On The Fly Starts	OZ Start %	OZ Faceoffs	NZ Faceoffs	DZ Faceoffs	OZ Faceoff %
Bo Horvat	596	585	750	2069	44.28	942	853	1311	41.81
Brandon Sutter	419	412	444	1217	48.55	700	584	769	47.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Now tell me again that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat and take the primary defense assignments.

Bah humbug. I saw him being sheltered with my own eyes, thus it is so!

 

[sting101]

Horvat and Sutter both come onto the ice in the 3rd for defensive zone faceoffs?

Not only that Horvat has been much healthier thus the almost 2 to 1 faceoffs you cited.

Since Green has been coaching he uses Sutter primarily against the oppositions top line. Who cares where the faceoff started.

Hank typically got the offensive zone faceoffs if Green or Willie were able to.

Willie was awful....he used Sutter with the Sedins and on the PP.

 

[Peter10]

Horvat and Sutter both come onto the ice in the 3rd for defensive zone faceoffs?

Not only that Horvat has been much healthier thus the almost 2 to 1 faceoffs you cited.

Since Green has been coaching he uses Sutter primarily against the oppositions top line. Who cares where the faceoff started.

Hank typically got the offensive zone faceoffs if Green or Willie were able to.

Willie was awful....he used Sutter with the Sedins and on the PP.

There is that thing called percentages which should offset the difference in games played (at least for comparing).

And again, my only point was that it is not true that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat. This is the argument HS made to prove they are rebuilding.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

There is that thing called percentages which should offset the difference in games played (at least for comparing).

And again, my only point was that it is not true that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat. This is the argument HS made to prove they are rebuilding.

They don't give up on these things. No matter the numbers.

 

[Canucks1096]

The point I was referring to was that someone claimed Sutter was "taking defensive assignments" which is simply not true. I also did not say that Sutter played exclusively in offensive roles but that he was used there constantly (which does not equal always).

15-16	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	43.0	57.0
Brandon Sutter	52.1	47.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

While it got a bit better in 16-17 its not like Horvat got the "easy" minutes.

16-17	OZS%	DZS%
Bo Horvat	47.4	52.6
Brandon Sutter	43.8	56.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Combined stats (from NaturalStatTrick):

Player	OZ Starts	NZ Starts	DZ Starts	On The Fly Starts	OZ Start %	OZ Faceoffs	NZ Faceoffs	DZ Faceoffs	OZ Faceoff %
Bo Horvat	596	585	750	2069	44.28	942	853	1311	41.81
Brandon Sutter	419	412	444	1217	48.55	700	584	769	47.65

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Now tell me again that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat and take the primary defense assignments.

Sutter played 60 less games during that time frame

 

[Horse McHindu]

There is that thing called percentages which should offset the difference in games played (at least for comparing).

And again, my only point was that it is not true that Sutter was brought in to shelter Horvat. This is the argument HS made to prove they are rebuilding.

I didn’t use that particular point to imply that the Canucks were rebuilding. And admittedly, it looks like I may have been wrong about the “defensive assignments” bit. We’ll see what other facts are presented in this thread.

However - to imply that Sutter’s presence in some shape or form, whatever that shape was, didn’t provide a long term benefit to Horvat and didn’t help take pressure off of Horvat’s shoulders at the time is just flat out wrong.

Although he was close, Horvat wasn’t quite ready to be a full time 2nd line C at the time and so the presence of Sutter helped BoHo develop a bit more.

 

[Askel]

Sutter played 60 less games during that time frame

It 2 seasons combined:
in 15-17 Horvst took 2991 face-offs. And 1264 in the D-zone.

 

[Askel]

I didn’t use that particular point to imply that the Canucks were rebuilding. And admittedly, it looks like I may have been wrong about the “defensive assignments” bit. We’ll see what other facts are presented in this thread.

However - to imply that Sutter’s presence in some shape or form, whatever that shape was, didn’t provide a long term benefit to Horvat and didn’t help take pressure off of Horvat’s shoulders at the time is just flat out wrong.

Although he was close, Horvat wasn’t quite ready to be a full time 2nd line C at the time and so the presence of Sutter helped BoHo develop a bit more.

But we would have had Bonino in Sutters role, you can't prove anything about Sutter.

 

[Horse McHindu]

But we would have had Bonino in Sutters role, you can't prove anything about Sutter.

Bonino was brought in from Anaheim because it was believed that he could grow into the role of a 2nd liner. Unfortunately, Bones just was not cut out for that role and it became very obvious in the playoffs that year. Bones is and was a very good 3rd Line Center but was simply not 2nd line material. Hence the trade.

Horvat was close to being a worthy 2nd Line Center (as evidenced by an impressive showing in the 2015 playoffs) but still needed time to develop. Hence - management traded Bonino for Sutter as they felt Sutter could be the temp fill in as Horvat developed.

Sutter was a better skater than Bonino and was better at face offs, and so management felt that Sutter may have been a better option for that 2nd line temp role.....and long term 3rd Line role after Horvat’s promotion (which Sutter thrived in last year).

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Bonino was brought in from Anaheim because it was believed that he could grow into the role of a 2nd liner. Unfortunately, Bones just was not cut out for that role and it became very obvious in the playoffs that year. Bones is and was a very good 3rd Line Center but was simply not 2nd line material. Hence the trade.

Horvat was close to being a worthy 2nd Line Center (as evidenced by an impressive showing in the 2015 playoffs) but still needed time to develop. Hence - management traded Bonino for Sutter as they felt Sutter could be the temp fill in as Horvat developed.

Sutter was a better skater than Bonino and was better at face offs, and so management felt that Sutter may have been a better option for that 2nd line temp role.....and long term 3rd Line role after Horvat’s promotion (which Sutter thrived in last year).

You forgot to add that it was a pretty big miss-calculation by our management.
They wrongly assessed the player Sutter is, and the information was available to find that out.

 

[Askel]

Bonino was brought in from Anaheim because it was believed that he could grow into the role of a 2nd liner. Unfortunately, Bones just was not cut out for that role and it became very obvious in the playoffs that year. Bones is and was a very good 3rd Line Center but was simply not 2nd line material. Hence the trade.

Horvat was close to being a worthy 2nd Line Center (as evidenced by an impressive showing in the 2015 playoffs) but still needed time to develop. Hence - management traded Bonino for Sutter as they felt Sutter could be the temp fill in as Horvat developed.

Sutter was a better skater than Bonino and was better at face offs, and so management felt that Sutter may have been a better option for that 2nd line temp role.....and long term 3rd Line role after Horvat’s promotion (which Sutter thrived in last year).

Sutter is 0.6 better at face-offs, he wins one more of 200 face-offs. yes he is a better skater than Bonino. The rest of your argument is BS.

Bonino is 2 time Stanley cup champion as a third line center, what has Sutter ever won. Why the hell couldn't he have been a longtime 3rd line solution on the Canucks?

Bonino is a better offensive player, who can play in the top six. Sutter is pure bottom six player. Sutter was brought in and played in the top six, taking ice time away from Horvat, in a role that Sutter can't play. Management thought Sutter he was something he wasn't, they argued that he hadn't got enough opportunities to play in the top six and thought they were upgrading, they were not.

Also Bonino was much cheaper with the money saved the Canucks could have brought in more depth instead of being forced to play McCann/Virtanen who wasn't ready.

That Sutter deal and that entire offseason was the worst off-season since Nonis.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You forgot to add that it was a pretty big miss-calculation by our management.
They wrongly assessed the player Sutter is, and the information was available to find that out.

Also @Askel - will include you here as well as I read your post.

Fair enough about Sutter. I think injuries have also effected his effectiveness.....although we saw first hand last year as to how he performed when healthy.

You have to admit though - for whatever reason, Bonino didn’t play all that great in Vancouver and was clearly not 2nd line material. They felt that Sutter could be that temporary 2nd line stop gap in Vancouver as Horvat developed in an auxiliary role, but it didn’t quite pan out that way.
@Askel - I also wouldn’t label it as “taking ice time away from Horvat” as Horvat needed some more time to develop back then (2015-2016). Sutter’s presence insultated Horvat in a positive way even if Sutter didn’t pan out in the way that management expected.

 

[Askel]

Also @Askel - will include you here as well as I read your post.

Fair enough about Sutter. I think injuries have also effected his effectiveness.....although we saw first hand last year as to how he performed when healthy.

You have to admit though - for whatever reason, Bonino didn’t play all that great in Vancouver and was clearly not 2nd line material. They felt that Sutter could be that temporary 2nd line stop gap in Vancouver as Horvat developed in an auxiliary role, but it didn’t quite pan out that way.
@Askel - I also wouldn’t label it as “taking ice time away from Horvat” as Horvat needed some more time to develop back then (2015-2016). Sutter’s presence insultated Horvat in a positive way even if Sutter didn’t pan out in the way that management expected.

Sutter played 20 games in 15-16 he didn't insulate anything. He should have been the 3rd line center in 16-17 but Willie was not having that, and overplayed Sutter in the top 6. Sutter first good season as a Canucks was last year when Green played him in the bottom six.

Bonino had 39 pts in his only Canuck season, Sutter has not reached that many as a Canuck. If Bonino oxidant play well here what the hell are we going to say about Sutter and his 4,5 million salary.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Sutter is 0.6 better at face-offs, he wins one more of 200 face-offs. yes he is a better skater than Bonino. The rest of your argument is BS.

Bonino is 2 time Stanley cup champion as a third line center, what has Sutter ever won. Why the hell couldn't he have been a longtime 3rd line solution on the Canucks?

Bonino is a better offensive player, who can play in the top six. Sutter is pure bottom six player. Sutter was brought in and played in the top six, taking ice time away from Horvat, in a role that Sutter can't play. Management thought Sutter he was something he wasn't, they argued that he hadn't got enough opportunities to play in the top six and thought they were upgrading, they were not.

Also Bonino was much cheaper with the money saved the Canucks could have brought in more depth instead of being forced to play McCann/Virtanen who wasn't ready.

That Sutter deal and that entire offseason was the worst off-season since Nonis.

I get making an argument for a player based on performance..but the "he was on a SC team",and so and so wasn't.. is a poor one..Many great players have never won the cup.. Derrick Pouliot has a SC ring