Is Jim Benning now the worst GM in the NHL?

[y2kcanucks]

Canucks inquired about Subbann in 2016, but not for that ridiculous package that involved Horvat. That’s just made up BS.

Agreed with you on the Lucic rumour from 2015 and I stand by the decision that management made at the time. The Canucks were one year removed from the playoffs and were within striking distance of the playoffs at that trade deadline if I recall correctly. Yes - in retrospect, the trade would have been extremely ill advised given the fact that we ended up with Boeser, but if management’s philosophy is and was to adopt a “player centric” mindset and show the players that management has always got their backs if they earn their stripes, than that was the correct move to make.

You can’t just come into an organization with “Mao’s 5 year plan” and say, “yep, we’re rebuilding.”........especially considering the fact that this core had only missed the playoffs once at that point. Once the players PROVE that they are incapable of making the playoffs, THEN you CHANGE your strategy (as Benning did).

Management always need to show that they have the players’ backs and will reward them if they EARN it.

Take St.Louis last year for instance. The Blues were well within striking distance and then the Blues decided to trade Stastny to Winnipeg.

On paper - it was an excellent move to make, but you don’t think a move like that hurt the Blues’ morale? The Blues have struggled ever since.

Do you have any proof that it’s just made up? Or is this just like the 2015 Miller trade they rejected where you’re choosing to ignore it because you don’t like that reality so it’s easier for you to reconcile your own bias towards being pro Benning if you ignore it?

 

[RobertKron]

I'd have to ignore this whole board then; it's almost exclusively anti-management/select scapegoat players...

Feel free to do this.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Do you have any proof that it’s just made up? Or is this just like the 2015 Miller trade they rejected where you’re choosing to ignore it because you don’t like that reality so it’s easier for you to reconcile your own bias towards being pro Benning if you ignore it?

In most cases, Google doesn’t lie.......nor does McKenzie, Friedman, Dreger, etc.

When there is smoke there is usually fire, and most major and legitimate rumours are reported by more than one source.

In 2015 - the only media source that reported the “so called” Miller proposal, was CanucksArmy.....a blog, who much like the anti tank crowd on here, had a biased agenda against this management group.

Seriously........see it for yourself. Do a google check. Compare legit rumours to the Miller rumour. How many sources reported legit rumours before they occurred?

For instance - look up Noah Hanifin and Ryan O’Reilly rumours from last year on google, and compare that with Ryan Miller.

 

[sting101]

Would you be willing to tell Jamie Bacon to his face that he was a terrible person?

Come on this is the dumbest logic I’ve ever seen.

yes because Benning is a scumbag criminal.

this is a dumb comparable to say the least

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Canucks inquired about Subbann in 2016, but not for that ridiculous package that involved Horvat. That’s just made up BS.

Agreed with you on the Lucic rumour from 2015 and I stand by the decision that management made at the time. The Canucks were one year removed from the playoffs and were within striking distance of the playoffs at that trade deadline if I recall correctly. Yes - in retrospect, the trade would have been extremely ill advised given the fact that we ended up with Boeser, but if management’s philosophy is and was to adopt a “player centric” mindset and show the players that management has always got their backs if they earn their stripes, than that was the correct move to make.

You can’t just come into an organization with “Mao’s 5 year plan” and say, “yep, we’re rebuilding.”........especially considering the fact that this core had only missed the playoffs once at that point. Once the players PROVE that they are incapable of making the playoffs, THEN you CHANGE your strategy (as Benning did).

Management always need to show that they have the players’ backs and will reward them if they EARN it.

Take St.Louis last year for instance. The Blues were well within striking distance and then the Blues decided to trade Stastny to Winnipeg.

On paper - it was an excellent move to make, but you don’t think a move like that hurt the Blues’ morale? The Blues have struggled ever since.

I would not rule out Horvat being apart of a Subban package for a couple of reasons.

-It was before he broke out. He was coming off a 40 point season so it was unknown if he would become a legitamate top 6 forward. His defensive game was also still developing.
-Benning gave up a player he thought would be a top 6F for Gudbranson. But you don't think he would give one up for a Norris winning defencemen

 

[y2kcanucks]

In most cases, Google doesn’t lie.......nor does McKenzie, Friedman, Dreger, etc.

When there is smoke there is usually fire, and most major and legitimate rumours are reported by more than one source.

In 2015 - the only media source that reported the “so called” Miller proposal, was CanucksArmy.....a blog, who much like the anti tank crowd on here, had a biased agenda against this management group.

Seriously........see it for yourself. Do a google check. Compare legit rumours to the Miller rumour. How many sources reported legit rumours before they occurred?

For instance - look up Noah Hanifin and Ryan O’Reilly rumours from last year on google, and compare that with Ryan Miller.

I honestly don't care. You prefer to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative, that's fine. You do you. The results with this team speak for themselves. Worst team in the NHL over the last 3.5 seasons despite management trying to make the playoffs, spending to the cap for 3 of those years, and trading away futures for now pieces for most of that time. As well, glutting the team with bad contracts and veterans. It is what it is, this is what you want. Enjoy it.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I honestly don't care. You prefer to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative, that's fine. You do you. The results with this team speak for themselves. Worst team in the NHL over the last 3.5 seasons despite management trying to make the playoffs, spending to the cap for 3 of those years, and trading away futures for now pieces for most of that time. As well, glutting the team with bad contracts and veterans. It is what it is, this is what you want. Enjoy it.

I’m not really sure if anyone on Team Tank has the right to use the term “fit the narrative.” You don’t care because you know that I’m right, and that the Google test doesn’t lie.....along with the fact that none of the major and legit sources talked about a potential 2015 Miller trade other than “Canucks Army.”

I honestly don’t know what your gripe is with this team. You say that this team is saddled with bad contracts and yet I’ve yet to see evidence of how

1) These contracts will hold us back long term, in terms of reupping our young core that needs to be reupped in the long term.

2) Young players on the team were undeservingly “held back” by the presence of said vets. Any vet that was signed/traded for and occupied spots, was a result of no young prospect within our system being ready for said role.

Team Tank has been screaming for a “rebuild” and yet here we stand today with Pettersson and Boeser......with the extremely highly touted Quinn Hughes in his way.

Successful rebuilds generally take 5-7 years. The Canucks appear to be trending up and are on pace for about 84 points this season. They have some solid young core pieces, and have some good prospects such as Gaudette, Madden, Dahlen, etc. Your guru JD Burke is also quite high on Lukas Jasek.

We have young kids that are surrounded by solid vets that keep the team accountable. We have a young team.

I fail to see what the problem is. At all.

 

[Hodgy]

The pro-Benning posters cannot seem to grasp the idea of reasonable baselines, and comparing Jim Benning’s performance to these baselines.

In a league that rewards failing with high draft picks, and where competing teams will trade draft picks to non competing teams for players, teams that finish in the bottom five in the league for four straight years will naturally improve. That doesn’t mean their management is competent, it’s besically a natural consequence of the system.

We are seeing this with the Canucks.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I fail to see what the problem is. At all.

And that's why it's a waste of my time explaining it to you.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm actually surprised by the amount of people who think he's Average or Above Average. If this performance is average, I'm not sure what these fans would categorize as below average or poor? Interesting.

The majority is still with bottom5 or the worst, but there are more people that think his performance is acceptable than I would have anticipated. Good poll. Good insight.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

that's fine, those two are legitimate top 4 defenceman on any team in the league. 3 years is good term too, what they need to do is replace Gudbranson/Pouliot/Stecher with higher quality defenceman.

Edler/Tanev/Hutton/Q.Hughes is a good start.

Hmmm... But wont Edler and Tanev be pretty old?

Should a rebuilding team consider moving some aging assets at this point to try and maximize their value for the (Im assuming) planned cup run in a couple of years with the new core?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

long post

Start here:

 

[MS]

LB, I think you've gotten used to this new level of putrid management. If he stays quite for a while, it's easy to forget. Posters like MS do not forget. That's the difference IMO.

Has he made any significant moves in the last couple years other than picking players with the picks the league has given him?

Most of those moves range from terrible to meh.

As soon are there is pressure to make a big move he’s going to **** it up just like Chia. He wanted Lucic and you know Jimbo would have given a **** ton for Larson

This.

He’s gone from actively trying to compete and being proactive and making bigger moves which clearly and obviously highlighted what a moron he is ... to a quasi-rebuild where he’s mainly sat on his hands and has made fewer smaller moves. Which have still been bad.

But after the tragicomical idiot show that this buffoon put together for the first 3 years, this seems like huge improvement! And shell shocked fans are grasping at straws and hoping for the best.

As soon as he starts making bigger moves to compete again, get ready for a disaster.

And it’s quite frankly incredible that bringing in this list of players on one-way deals in the last 2 years is viewed as a ‘positive’ or ‘improvement’.

Gagner
Del Zotto
Nilsson
Burmistrov
Wiercioch
Pouliot
Dowd
Leipsic
Motte
Beagle
Roussel
Schalle
Leivo

... plus raises/extensions to the likes of Granlund and Gudbranson. Like, how addled does your perspective have to be to consider that ‘average’ especially coming off the 2014-17 trainwreck?

 

[MS]

In 2017 - Jimbo went against the grain and drafted Elias Pettersson.

A certain somebody on the other hand, claimed that Gabe Vilardi was the guy that the Canucks should target because his style of play was likely to be the most successful in today’s NHL. Said person claimed that Casey Mittelstadt’s style wouldnt translate to the big leagues. Elias Pettersson was not even on said person’s radar.

1. Yes, I didn’t have the ESP required to know that a top prospect would have career-threatening back injuries.

2. When healthy last year Vilardi was the most dominant player in the CHL. There was nothing wrong with my projection there.

3. I said *repeatedly* before, during, and after the draft that Pettersson looked good on paper but that I couldn’t have a strong opinion of him as I’d seen him play once at the WJCs and honestly couldn’t remember how he played. So no, I’m not going to have a strong take on a player I don’t know.

4. I’m not paid a 7-figure salary to be an NHL GM.

5. Again, the overwhelming circumstantial evidence indicates that Benning did not want to draft Pettersson but eventually acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

6. The notion that someone like Benning who is the most comically inept pro scout in the NHL and can’t even figure out which players are effective when they’re fully developed could somehow be a Rain Man who sees things other people don’t see when it comes to the much more difficult science of projecting teenagers is just utterly ludicrous. It’s like saying that a mouth-breather who has to count on his fingers to figure out 3x4 is capable of nuclear physics.

 

[RandV]

You know for all the credit he gets for not pulling a Larsson for Hall type it's really amazing how in 5 years the utter lack of a good move from Benning that you can define him by.

Like Keenan got Bertuzzi-McCabe-Ruutu for Linden. Burke turned a hold Bure into Jovo, got Morrison for Mogilny, and swung the deal to land both Sedin twins. Nonis traded for Luongo. Gillis did more a lot of good moves for good value but the biggest steal was Ehrhoff for White (a 2nd) and the longest impact choosing to trade Schneider to draft Horvat.

What does Benning have outside the draft picks the league gives him? His biggest move basically amounts to parlaying Kesler++ into Sutter and Gudbranson. He's best value moves are Bieksa for a 2nd, a 2nd for Baerstchi, and Burrows for Dahlen.

What's unique about him compared to other bottom GM's is it's all just so underwhelming.

 

[Canucks1096]

The pro-Benning posters cannot seem to grasp the idea of reasonable baselines, and comparing Jim Benning’s performance to these baselines.

In a league that rewards failing with high draft picks, and where competing teams will trade draft picks to non competing teams for players, teams that finish in the bottom five in the league for four straight years will naturally improve. That doesn’t mean their management is competent, it’s besically a natural consequence of the system.

We are seeing this with the Canucks.

You still have to get your high picks right. Not all draft picks in the top 7 are guarantee elite players. For examples JB picked the best player in the 2017 draft with the 5th overall pick. Many people on this forum were not happy with that pick which means if you were GM of the Canucks you would of drafted someone else. If you drafted someone else, chances are you set the franchise back a year and might not naturally improve.

Btw Boeser was a late 1st round pick.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

1. Yes, I didn’t have the ESP required to know that a top prospect would have career-threatening back injuries.

2. When healthy last year Vilardi was the most dominant player in the CHL. There was nothing wrong with my projection there.

3. I said *repeatedly* before, during, and after the draft that Pettersson looked good on paper but that I couldn’t have a strong opinion of him as I’d seen him play once at the WJCs and honestly couldn’t remember how he played. So no, I’m not going to have a strong take on a player I don’t know.

4. I’m not paid a 7-figure salary to be an NHL GM.

5. Again, the overwhelming circumstantial evidence indicates that Benning did not want to draft Pettersson but eventually acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

6. The notion that someone like Benning who is the most comically inept pro scout in the NHL and can’t even figure out which players are effective when they’re fully developed could somehow be a Rain Man who sees things other people don’t see when it comes to the much more difficult science of projecting teenagers is just utterly ludicrous. It’s like saying that a mouth-breather who has to count on his fingers to figure out 3x4 is capable of nuclear physics.

Instead of saying "overwhelming ,circumstantial evidence that Benning didnt want to draft Pettersson"..Why dont you just tell us why?...Set the record straight..!

 

[MS]

You know for all the credit he gets for not pulling a Larsson for Hall type it's really amazing how in 5 years the utter lack of a good move from Benning that you can define him by.

Like Keenan got Bertuzzi-McCabe-Ruutu for Linden. Burke turned a hold Bure into Jovo, got Morrison for Mogilny, and swung the deal to land both Sedin twins. Nonis traded for Luongo. Gillis did more a lot of good moves for good value but the biggest steal was Ehrhoff for White (a 2nd) and the longest impact choosing to trade Schneider to draft Horvat.

What does Benning have outside the draft picks the league gives him? His biggest move basically amounts to parlaying Kesler++ into Sutter and Gudbranson. He's best value moves are Bieksa for a 2nd, a 2nd for Baerstchi, and Burrows for Dahlen.

What's unique about him compared to other bottom GM's is it's all just so underwhelming.

5 years as GM.

Not a single core player acquired through trade or free agency.

Not a single NHL quality defender identified through pro scouting.

Best acquisition currently on the team is ... Antoine Roussel (and his 5 goals in 46 games in the first year of an albatross contract), maybe? Maybe career-high 35 points fringe top-6 winger Baertschi?

5 of the team’s top 7 players still inherited from previous regime.

But wait! There are 2 first-round picks that have had their selections attributed by multiple sources to hard quality work by members of our scouting staff that the GM rubber-stamped!!!

It’s ridiculous.

 

[Melvin]

5 years as GM.

Not a single core player acquired through trade or free agency.

Not a single NHL quality defender identified through pro scouting.

Best acquisition currently on the team is ... Antoine Roussel (and his 5 goals in 46 games in the first year of an albatross contract), maybe? Maybe career-high 35 points fringe top-6 winger Baertschi?

5 of the team’s top 7 players still inherited from previous regime.

But wait! There are 2 first-round picks that have had their selections attributed by multiple sources to hard quality work by members of our scouting staff that the GM rubber-stamped!!!

It’s ridiculous.

Yes.

Also, as I've stated multiple times and you've stated recently, the fact that people are accepting that we are "rebuilding" has allowed him to mostly sit on his hands recently and not do much damage without anyone caring. Once the pressure is on to actually compete (as it was for chia) that is when the disaster moves will really happen. As they nearly did when he tried to trade for Lucic, which probably would have cost Boeser.

 

[MS]

Instead of saying "overwhelming ,circumstantial evidence that Benning didnt want to draft Pettersson"..Why dont you just tell us why?...Set the record straight..!

This has been discussed at length here before.

Post-Game Talk: - GAME #45: Canucks 0 @ Leafs 5: Go do something else for the next four days! Bye!

Again, obviously can’t prove it. But you can connect the dots.

Different picks happen different ways.

2016 Benning was clearly driving the bus on Juolevi.

2017 it looks exceptionally likely that he personally wanted to go a different direction but acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

2018 pretty clearly everyone was on the same page with Hughes.

 

[Melvin]

This has been discussed at length here before.

Post-Game Talk: - GAME #45: Canucks 0 @ Leafs 5: Go do something else for the next four days! Bye!

Again, obviously can’t prove it. But you can connect the dots.

Different picks happen different ways.

2016 Benning was clearly driving the bus on Juolevi.

2017 it looks exceptionally likely that he personally wanted to go a different direction but acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

2018 pretty clearly everyone was on the same page with Hughes.

It doesn't even matter.

The idea that nobody had ever heard of Elias Pettersson and Jim benning had to skate through frozen forests for six days and wrestle a bear to discover This kid playing pond hockey with penguins and then personally smuggle him out of the country and teach him North American rules, it's so God dammed stupid.

Everyone had heard of Elias Pettersson and his statistics placed him with Matthews and Mcdavid among the most elite players available in recent drafts. He fell to five because dinosaur scouts thought he was "too skinny" and luckily we got "unlucky" in the draft lottery and we were able to pick him up at five. What ever credit you give for this is like the bare minimum amount of credit it's possible to give for something, like a shortstop correctly fielding a ground ball. I don't f***ing care about it even if Benning overruled all the scouts on it. Benning and the scouting staff are collectively paid tens of millions of dollars for these decisions and its not impressive in the slightest.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This has been discussed at length here before.

Post-Game Talk: - GAME #45: Canucks 0 @ Leafs 5: Go do something else for the next four days! Bye!

Again, obviously can’t prove it. But you can connect the dots.

Different picks happen different ways.

2016 Benning was clearly driving the bus on Juolevi.

2017 it looks exceptionally likely that he personally wanted to go a different direction but acceded to the consensus of his scouts.

2018 pretty clearly everyone was on the same page with Hughes.

Not having any published reports..and then telling us to connect the dots is not "overwhelming ,substantial evidence"...Its something that you cooked up in that big brain of yours...

Judd Brackett on EP

"In the case of Pettersson, it was far from a one-man show.
“
I spoke to Brackett after the Canucks wrapped up their scouting meetings in Toronto on the weekend. It’s here where they really start to refine their list of players for the 2018 draft. It’s also where they identify gaps in their knowledge and direct the team of scouts for these final few months."

“Scouting is a group effort for us,” he said. “We have Inge Hammarstrom over there and Thomas [Gradin] traveled there, but Elias played in the U20 tournament in November...and we had plenty of guys that cross over to Sweden. So, there’s no one person that drafts. If there’s a player we like, we have long discussions about that player. It’s definitely a group effort when we find someone special like Pettersson.”

 

[MS]

Not having any published reports..and then telling us to connect the dots is not "overwhelming ,substantial evidence"...Its something that you cooked up in that big brain of yours...

Judd Brackett on EP

"In the case of Pettersson, it was far from a one-man show.
“Scouting is a group effort for us,” he said. “We have Inge Hammarstrom over there and Thomas [Gradin] traveled there, but Elias played in the U20 tournament in
I spoke to Brackett after the Canucks wrapped up their scouting meetings in Toronto on the weekend. It’s here where they really start to refine their list of players for the 2018 draft. It’s also where they identify gaps in their knowledge and direct the team of scouts for these final few months."

The published reports have been posted here multiple times. I’m not going to waste my time digging them up every time this comes up.

And how does a quote where Brackett doesn’t even mention Benning go against anything I said?

I gave you a detailed, 10-point deep argument for why circumstantial evidence suggests Benning wasn’t that high on Pettersson. What evidence do you have to the contrary?

 

[Canucks1096]

5 years as GM.

Not a single core player acquired through trade or free agency.

Not a single NHL quality defender identified through pro scouting.

Best acquisition currently on the team is ... Antoine Roussel (and his 5 goals in 46 games in the first year of an albatross contract), maybe? Maybe career-high 35 points fringe top-6 winger Baertschi?

5 of the team’s top 7 players still inherited from previous regime.

But wait! There are 2 first-round picks that have had their selections attributed by multiple sources to hard quality work by members of our scouting staff that the GM rubber-stamped!!!

It’s ridiculous.

JB didn't have to rubber stamped it. He could of went against his scouting department. Look at the Oilers in 2012, most of the scouting staffs wanted Murray but Mactavish drafted Yakapov anyways. There is not one scouting staff. I highly doubt every scouting staff wanted Petey. He could of listened to someone else. Jb Makes the final call and got it right with Pettersson.

I see a double standard here. You are giving credit to the scouting department and not Benning. But Benning get the blames for the other players he signed or traded for. Why not blame the pro scouting? When JB makes a trade or signs a player. More than one person is involved. There is a clip on YouTube before the Kesler trade happened. Not just one person is involved. They have meeting before a decision is made.

The good transactions give the scouting department the credit. Bad transactions blame it on JB. Doesn't work like that. Either he gets credit and the blame for all the players or none.

Green wanted Pouliot. I guess we should blame Green for Pouliot and not JB.

Ridiculous

 

[MikeK]

Hard to say who the worst is as there are a few really bad GMs in the league. In my mind he is absolutely in the discussion which in and of itself is bad enough.