Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

[Devil Dancer]

If 52's advanced stats in the defensive zone were good, that's fantastic evidence that advanced stats are total ********. Talk about failing the eye test. Is there a worse defenseman in the league at playing the 2 on 1? Is there another player in the league who fumbles the puck away in his own zone more than 52?

And before txpd throws a fit, I'm a lukewarm Green supporter for his offensive game, not a hater.

 

[Liberati0n*]

Corsi% =/ stopping the opposition, although certainly in the long run that's helpful. The best you can say is that Green starts transition better than Carlson & Alzner (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that assessment). It's an under-developed area of Calzner's game thanks to poor coaching and primarily wanting them to concentrate on their own end since so few others could be relied upon to do so.

That transition impact is what makes moving Green and adding a couple of more traditionally defensive-defensemen an issue in the short-term, particularly if they truly do want to play an up-tempo game. Absent a high quality offer they shouldn't move him just for the sake of it unless there's an equally qualified transition asset added from elsewhere. Not sure Stralman alone does that, although maybe the difference in salary makes it more worthwhile. Stralman+Gilbert+stay-at-home type might work on the cheap for the time being.

Corsi doesn't equal stopping the other team, but being able to keep the puck out of your own zone is a good substitute, and not being able to pretty much means you'll eventually get scored on regardless.

The faceoff and deployment stuff is where it got more interesting. To me, it was more damning of Alzner and Carlson than anything else. Maybe you're right that that's on coaching, but I don't really know. If it's a real possibility that Carlson can be a legitimate #1 defenseman, Trotz better be able to bring something more out of him (and Alzner).

 

[Ajax1995]

Is there a worse defenseman in the league at playing the 2 on 1? Is there another player in the league who fumbles the puck away in his own zone more than 52?

I am just curious what you are basing this on? If this is about the eye test I have to assume you watch the rest of the league just as much as you watch Green?

If you are watching pretty much every Caps' game and the rest of the league pretty much only when they play the Caps and maybe a couple more games a year of course Green is going to make more mistakes before your eyes then anyone in the rest of the league.

 

[fedfed]

If 52's advanced stats in the defensive zone were good, that's fantastic evidence that advanced stats are total ********. Talk about failing the eye test. Is there a worse defenseman in the league at playing the 2 on 1? Is there another player in the league who fumbles the puck away in his own zone more than 52?

And before txpd throws a fit, I'm a lukewarm Green supporter for his offensive game, not a hater.

There's a defenseman who fumbles the puck more often on the Caps, named John Erskine.

 

[Devil Dancer]

I am just curious what you are basing this on? If this is about the eye test I have to assume you watch the rest of the league just as much as you watch Green?

Of course it's at least partially hyperbole, but that doesn't change the fact that Green is terrible on 2 on 1s and he coughs up the puck in the Caps' zone on a regular basis, so any statistic that purports to show that he's good in his own end is ********.

Again, when you consider his entire game I think Green is a significant asset, but stats that put his defensive play above either of Carlzner are clearly flawed.

 

[Langway]

If it's a real possibility that Carlson can be a legitimate #1 defenseman, Trotz better be able to bring something more out of him (and Alzner).

I think Trotz can help. I also think they perhaps need more out of Alzner than anyone (aside from Backstrom I guess) or to the pairings accordingly. At least with Carlson in the past we've seen more of an accomplished two-way game. I'm not sure Alzner will ever really have that dimension to his game from a decision-making standpoint and that hampers their possession ability.

When I think of players with more to give it's a pretty long one...really the entire team with the exception of Beagle, Chimera & Ward. That speaks volumes as to how bad Oates was...and also how flimsy their leadership group has become.

 

[artilector]

Corsi probably has the worst relevance for players who make defensive gaffes. If you lose the puck or your cover and the opponent gets a golden scoring chance, that has the same Corsi contribution as if your team carries the puck in and puts a harmless shot on net from the point.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

When was Green removed from PP1?

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

When was Green removed from PP1?

When he got back from the concussion after the Olympic break, Oates kept Carlson on the first unit.

 

[txpd]

I thought it was before that. I could be wrong. I want to say that Carlson was moved into that role while Green was in the lineup. I want to say that the Caps PP was ranked #1 when Green was removed.

 

[Blades of Steel]

I thought it was before that. I could be wrong. I want to say that Carlson was moved into that role while Green was in the lineup. I want to say that the Caps PP was ranked #1 when Green was removed.

fairly sure you're correct here, I remember green being on the bench when Calrson was on pp1, not sure if it was after injury or not, but I do believe it was before as well.

 

[BobRouse]

I thought it was well before the Olympic break and i do believe our PP was humming right along with Green on the #1 unit.

Carlson did OK on the PP for sure. I mean we finished at #1 or close to it.

But was it really necessary to put him in the grinder like that? Carlson was already playing alot of tough minutes and had a lot of responsiblities.

The net effect of that move is that it hurt one of our Dmen (Green's confidence) and didn't really help another.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

If it was at the point of Green's concussion, then our PP efficacy actually improved by 14%

Prior to 2/1 we were 44/197 = 22.3%
After 2/1 we were 24/94 = 25.5%

 

[RandyHolt]

IMM Green was not cutting it at ES and as punishment he cut his PP time.

Or, to allow him to refocus on basics, versus wondering when our next power play and point is going to come.

Our PP was top rated with and without Green.

Top notch top notch.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

I thought it was before that. I could be wrong. I want to say that Carlson was moved into that role while Green was in the lineup. I want to say that the Caps PP was ranked #1 when Green was removed.

I checked the game logs for the four games before his concussion, and Green had more PP time than Carlson in each of them.

 

[BobRouse]

Well lets face facts here:

1) Green hasn't been mentioned by the new GM and coach while they praised other players.

2) Green is in the last year of his contract.

3) With the salary cap going up significantly that will open up the trade market for Dmen ESPECIALLY with the weak UFA pool.

4) Puck moving offensive dmen are at a premium. Especially one of the best in Green.


All indications point to him being traded.

The question comes down to value and what is the minimum we will accept. Again I say it will be good player+good pick+good prospect which is not at all unreasonable and there will be many teams giving the Caps a call if it is known he is available.

 

[Vladiator16*]

Well lets face facts here:

1) Green hasn't been mentioned by the new GM and coach while they praised other players.

2) Green is in the last year of his contract.

3) With the salary cap going up significantly that will open up the trade market for Dmen ESPECIALLY with the weak UFA pool.

4) Puck moving offensive dmen are at a premium. Especially one of the best in Green.


All indications point to him being traded.

The question comes down to value and what is the minimum we will accept. Again I say it will be good player+good pick+good prospect which is not at all unreasonable and there will be many teams giving the Caps a call if it is known he is available.

Well then... 20g/40a are coming up!

 

[BobRouse]

Well then... 20g/40a are coming up!

If he's around. And I am not so sure Green's issue is more of a motivation thing as it is a confidence thing.

What teams would hold interest?

I'd say the major ones would be (excluding all Metro division teams) :

Anaheim
Calgary
Colorado
Dallas
Detroit
Edmonton
Minnesota
San Jose
Vancouver

 

[txpd]

Well then... 20g/40a are coming up!

are you saying you would be surprised by that? he could miss 15 games with injuries and hit that.

 

[Capitlols]

are you saying you would be surprised by that? he could miss 15 games with injuries and hit that.

Why do people keep mentioning Green's missed games as if it's positive?

 

[g00n]

I checked the game logs for the four games before his concussion, and Green had more PP time than Carlson in each of them.

The thread linked below was started in early December, and by then Carlson had already been moved to PP1:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1556697&highlight=carlson

I believe the demotion took place a week or two prior to that. The concussion was much later, in February. Comments indicate about 25 games with Green on PP1 and then a minor injury and then Oates stuck with Carlson.

edit: at the time that thread was started Green had just gotten his first PPG and had 7 PPA in 27 games. Green had been stinking up the joint prior to his demotion, and injury maybe just opened the door for the switch.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

The thread linked below was started in early December, and by then Carlson had already been moved to PP1:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1556697&highlight=carlson

I believe the demotion took place a week or two prior to that. The concussion was much later, in February. Comments indicate about 25 games with Green on PP1 and then a minor injury and then Oates stuck with Carlson.

edit: at the time that thread was started Green had just gotten his first PPG and had 7 PPA in 27 games. Green had been stinking up the joint prior to his demotion, and injury maybe just opened the door for the switch.

So if it was December then:

PP w Green (Oct/Nov) = 24/103 = 23.3%

PP w Carlson (Dec-Apr) = 44/188 = 23.4%

 

[Stewie G]

So if it was December then:

PP w Green (Oct/Nov) = 24/103 = 23.3%

PP w Carlson (Dec-Apr) = 44/188 = 23.4%

My follow-up question would be how did the additional PP time affect Carlson's ES and PK numbers? If there was no change in effectiveness depending on who was running the PP, did putting Carlson there negatively impact his play in other situations?

If it didn't, that's another point towards dealing Green. If it did, perhaps keeping Green to use on the PP and thereby allowing Carlson to focus on PK and ES would be more beneficial from an overall team perspective.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

My follow-up question would be how did the additional PP time affect Carlson's ES and PK numbers? If there was no change in effectiveness depending on who was running the PP, did putting Carlson there negatively impact his play in other situations?

If it didn't, that's another point towards dealing Green. If it did, perhaps keeping Green to use on the PP and thereby allowing Carlson to focus on PK and ES would be more beneficial from an overall team perspective.

Nothing to back it up, but I think Laich's groin injuries had more of a negative impact on the PK than anything else.

 

[g00n]

So if it was December then:

PP w Green (Oct/Nov) = 24/103 = 23.3%

PP w Carlson (Dec-Apr) = 44/188 = 23.4%

And that would fit with my comments earlier in that thread which stated I didn't see any potential difference in the two as the primary role in that system was to feed simple passes to Ovechkin.