Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

[J Leads the Way]

and to REALLY ruffle some feathers.....

think about what Crosby could do if he took 400 shots a year. THAT is pretty friggin scary. I hate Crosby as a person, but even I can admit he is the best player in the league (Stamkos is a close #2)

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

the point im making is that IF Mojo took 400 shots the way ovie does, he would produce the same. I'm tired of people acting like Ovie is some god because he scores 50 goals.

Mojo career S% is 12.1, even after this stinker of a year and his 7.5% S%.

Ovie career S% is 12.3.

I literally have no idea why you're so hung up on this. Do you not agree that Ovechkin has one of the best shots in the game? Certainly better than MaJo's, no? He's one of the most prolific goal scorers of all time. Ovie shoots a lot because his job is to shoot and score goals -- and the team is better when he does. Ovechkin being on his game and on the ice opens up opportunities for everyone else.

And as for your "MaJo is Backstrom-light," MaJo is to Backstrom what Bud Light is to DogFish Head 120 Minute.

I've also been one of MaJo's supporters around here and think he should be playing center, but calling him part of the core and saying we need to jettison Ovie over him is asinine.

 

[BrooklynCapsFan]

Shots aren't given, they are taken. Your argument is as stupid as saying that Ichiro could have improved his RBI #s if he just hit 20 more home runs a season.

 

[Langway]

Way to stay on topic, bros.

 

[Liberati0n*]

This is what the "ban" button was really invented for.

 

[Capitlols]

Trade Green.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Trade Green.

What is the minimum price you'd accept as a return for Green?

 

[Langway]

Would a 2nd+Sproul be enough? That's a Ribeiro sort of return that txpd likes to reference.

In a vaccuum it likely isn't enough IMO but if it's perceived to be a fait accompli then I guess it doesn't matter. Best offer is best offer. I'd hope it's not considered a move that must be made regardless of the market.

While you don't want to lose him for nothing I don't know if a Ribeiro sort of return is enough unless they've got other moves up their sleeve (or already made).

 

[Liberati0n*]

Would a 2nd+Sproul be enough? That's a Ribeiro sort of return that txpd likes to reference.

In a vaccuum it likely isn't enough IMO but if it's perceived to be a fait accompli then I guess it doesn't matter. Best offer is best offer. I'd hope it's not considered a move that must be made regardless of the market.

While you don't want to lose him for nothing I don't know if a Ribeiro sort of return is enough unless they've got other moves up their sleeve (or already made).

I think Eakin was a better prospect than Sproul. Regardless, I wouldn't be happy with that return. Losing him for nothing but not having to fill that hole on defense is better if that's what they can get.

 

[txpd]

My thinking on this is that the Caps trade Green now if they don't think he is their prime offensive blue liner. If he's not, then he's going to be a project and a risk to who gets him.

Getting an Eakin and a pick might end up bringing a quality player to the lineup but it wont be for this season and it wont fill the new hole on defense.

But realistically, the Caps get less if he leaves as a ufa and moving him now removes the potential distraction.

If Detroit is the team that wants him and they are not in a desperate position, I am second guessing my own position before I trade him.

I think the best plan is to do all that can be done to bring his game and confidence back and keep him. He either regains that elite position or he creates a hole in the lineup whether traded or ufa'd.

 

[g00n]

not at all. first of all creating offense from defense is a skill unto itself. a skill most forwards don't have. he is a defenseman. I doubt there are a dozen forwards in the nhl that could play defense in his own zone anywhere near as good as Green while very likely none of them could create any offense from defense in the process.

So, to say that he is a forward skating defense is totally inaccurate.

that he needs a steady partner is a separate issue. were he tom poti and his game tom poti's game, stay at home play defense with mobility and a good first pass out, he would not need a steady partner. poti was the steady partner.

if poti's game was to pressure the opposing defense and forecheck with an aggressive offensive attack from any of the three zones, that aggression requires solid back up.

It doesn't matter if the defensive playmaker is making offensive plays or stepping up to clean clocks with decisive hits, the playmaker needs a safety behind him because making the play often takes them out of position.

Do you want Green to be the safe guy which doesn't use his elite skills or do you want him to be an attack weapon?

I get the health and mental questions. I get the system fit question. Those questions are different from the two I have addressed. That he is a forward playing defense and that he needs a steady partner to fully play his game.

I'll ask again. Can you name a 25-30 minute defenseman that regularly played with a partner with barely over 80 nhl games of experience?

If many of the forwards in the NHL trained for the same number of years to play defense, yes absolutely they would be as good as or better than Green at it. They have the talent, all they would need is the training. But the system is more likely to slot such players as forwards so we'll never know.

Once again you're setting up false dilemmas: either Green is one extreme or he's the other. The reality is almost all of his value to this franchise is in his ability to score and create plays, but there will be times when he needs to just pay attention enough to make the BASIC hockey play. Nobody's asking him to be Chara, just a competent NHL defensemen when the situation calls for it, which will justify his ice time and allow more use of his attack skills.

It's the same Nash/Modano concept we've been talking about here wrt Ovie.

And I don't do research assignments, sorry. As I've said both sides are right and wrong here.

 

[artilector]

Don't know about what would be a minimum return for Green, but Caps obviously need to get a solid top-4 guy back. Same trade, different trade, doesn't matter. That's really the only condition.

 

[Ajax1995]

If many of the forwards in the NHL trained for the same number of years to play defense, yes absolutely they would be as good as or better than Green at it. They have the talent, all they would need is the training.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'trained for the same number of years' but if that means the amount of time Green has been a professional IMO that is an absurd statement.

 

[g00n]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'trained for the same number of years' but if that means the amount of time Green has been a professional IMO that is an absurd statement.

You don't think that top forwards would be good to great defensemen if they'd grown up playing defense, or played the position at developmental levels, instead of sticking to just forward? I pretty much made the OPPOSITE statement of what you just said.

 

[Ajax1995]

You don't think that top forwards would be good to great defensemen if they'd grown up playing defense, or played the position at developmental levels, instead of sticking to just forward? I pretty much made the OPPOSITE statement of what you just said.

Which is why I said I didn't know what you meant.

My guess is every skater who makes the NHL, plus even some goaltenders, played defense at some point in their lives. And I would bet the vast majority who made the NHL as forwards chose to play forward. There is just a different mentality to playing the two different positions IMO and what it takes to be good at one isn't necessarily what it takes to be good at the other.

I guess IMO there is just more to it than simply speculating that the same guys would be just as good as defensemen as they are forwards if they had played defense all there life.

 

[SimplySensational]

Okay, so the rumor is true, why the **** is MacLellan's first major move is for the team not to be secretive?

 

[Capitlols]

What is the minimum price you'd accept as a return for Green?

I'd be content with a Ribeiro-like return.

Okay, so the rumor is true, why the **** is MacLellan's first major move is for the team not to be secretive?

Did I miss something? What rumor?

 

[caps4cup]

I'd be content with a Ribeiro-like return.



Did I miss something? What rumor?

Yeah, this...

 

[InjuredChoker]

Mike Green, Karl Alzner/John Carlson: Who Stops The Opposition’s Best?

warning: lot of advanced stats stuff.

 

[trick9]

I think Green will bring back similar return as Jay Bouwmeester did when traded from Calgary.

 

[RandyHolt]

Does Corsi reflect when a Dman doesn't hustle to get back into position and the goalie makes a save on a odd man / breakaway?

All it takes a few questionable plays and a good GM pulls the trigger, advanced stats be damned but it may sure help a stat geek GM overpay for his service. If BMac were smart, he would use that a selling point.

Sure the 30 goal Green scares opponents and they may play on their heels but it hasn't gotten us anywhere in fact we have trended backwards under his maturation. He is really our only vet surrounded by guys still developing. What is the age that it takes Dmen to develop.... 30? He should be peaking / dominating.

I think he is not a good mentor for younger players. They are "learning" from him... little I think, and more likely bad habits and that proverbial 4th forwards get paid. When paired with a younger player, it seems the pair struggles. Its almost like he needs a vet mentor more than the kids do.

We can get rid of Green but I support DD's preference, lets bring in 3 vet dmen in his place. Albatross Cap hell paranoia be damned. George has failed to build his defense from within and its high time it be addressed head on.

 

[g00n]

It may not even matter unless the GM and coach find a way to protect him. This has been a problem for years now, starting with Hunter. If you force Green back into vulnerable positions it's much easier to pound him, and that's the book on him: take him out of his game (and maybe the game altogether) with physicality. 30 goal Green doesn't scare anyone if they can just hit him.

I was a Green defender for years when his offensive production CLEARLY outweighed his defensive liabilities, not just in advanced stats but in the eye test. I saw a dynamic offensive threat with underrated defensive abilities that he probably didn't feel like using much. But is he that same guy, and can he stay healthy?

It may be chicken or egg with this now. How much is Green and how much is the Caps staff? That's why I wanted to see how he'd do under a guy like Lavi. I don't know how Trotz is going to use him, IF he's going to use him.

 

[Langway]

Corsi% =/ stopping the opposition, although certainly in the long run that's helpful. The best you can say is that Green starts transition better than Carlson & Alzner (and I don't think anyone would be surprised by that assessment). It's an under-developed area of Calzner's game thanks to poor coaching and primarily wanting them to concentrate on their own end since so few others could be relied upon to do so.

That transition impact is what makes moving Green and adding a couple of more traditionally defensive-defensemen an issue in the short-term, particularly if they truly do want to play an up-tempo game. Absent a high quality offer they shouldn't move him just for the sake of it unless there's an equally qualified transition asset added from elsewhere. Not sure Stralman alone does that, although maybe the difference in salary makes it more worthwhile. Stralman+Gilbert+stay-at-home type might work on the cheap for the time being.

 

[RandyHolt]

I think we have seen in recent years teams have not hammered away on Green. He must be thrilled. I think that has a huge hand in his great advanced stats (AS). What does his AS say about this playoff game, when strategy such as targeting him are more likely? I am curious how it was versus Montreal when we dominated in shots but lost and he was on for a few critical goals against.

He can lead in Corsi next year and then come playoff time a Rupp could neutralize him easily.

I always grade playoff performances >>> regular season, even though its a small sample size. That is just me though.

I am still warming to advanced stats but do still think the eye test is needed to measure simple effort, heart, and hockey smarts such as how to brace oneself on the boards when about to be hit; which seems to be an area he lags behind others.

At the same time, he does not hit anymore. When he does, he apologizes. You can't make this stuff up.

It should be a huge red flag to a GM, and suspect it has been to our new GM BMac Trotz. While I am interested to see what an experienced coach can do with him, I am also thinking he is a logical player to move in a roster trade when other additions are being made to take his role. The book has been out on him for some time and i am not sure it can be re-written by Trotz.

 

[g00n]

I think we have seen in recent years teams have not hammered away on Green. He must be thrilled. I think that has a huge hand in his great advanced stats (AS). What does his AS stats say about this playoff game, when strategy such as targeting him are more likely? I am curious how it was versus Montreal when we dominated in shots but lost and he was on for a few critical goals against.

He can lead in Corsi next year and then come playoff time a Rupp could neutralize him easily.

I always grade playoff performances >>> regular season, even though its a small sample size. That is just me though.

I am still warming to advanced stats but do still think the eye test is needed to measure simple effort, heart, and hockey smarts such as how to brace oneself on the boards when about to be hit; which seems to be an area he lags behind others.

At the same time, he does not hit anymore. When he does, he apologizes. You can't make this stuff up.

It should be a huge red flag to a GM, and suspect it has been to our new GM BMac Trotz. While I am interested to see what an experienced coach can do with him, I am also thinking he is a logical player to move in a roster trade when other additions are being made to take his role.

Green got PUMMELED when the team switched to defense first, especially under Hunter. It was ridiculous. I still think a big reason his injuries started and his production dropped was because he was pinned in his own zone and hammered so often.

Under Oates there was less because the directive was to get rid of the puck faster and not carry the puck into the zone or pinch much, if at all (the Bourque Rule). So Green's biggest strengths were neutralized in two different ways. This probably fed into his already "casual" attitude and caused his motivation to fall even further.

To your question, his Corsi should have been through the roof vs MTL because it's based on shots vs TOI. The Caps shot a lot but didn't take long to give up goals against, on fewer shots. The entire team should have had high Corsi numbers.