Is Carey Price Overrated? Part II

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kingdok

Registered User
Jun 8, 2004
8,009
16
Price career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Bad
-Average
-Good
-Average
-Bad
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 4/8 seasons were good.. That's not elite, bro

Bernier career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 2/2 seasons were good

SO, if we were to extrapolate THIS season (why would we do it for last season, it's done?), it'll have taken Price 8 YEARS in the NHL to string together 2 solid seasons back to back.. Bernier did it in his first 2 seasons.

So is Bernier elite at that point? Top 5?


BTW: I find it very funny that no one is answering what happens if Price has another bad season. As if you all know I'm right. Once you're elite, that's it, you're elite. Look at Brodeur, he's an elite goalie I'm sure everyone agrees and he's nowhere near the top 5 right now. Why is that? HE PROVED HIMSELF. Price hasn't proven ****.
First, stop with the semantics. Everyone has their own definition of "elite" (and it's getting more and more obvious, especially with your Brodeur comparison there). the only thing you get from that is to get you upset and angry. Not healthy.

Now, what you seem to not see about your bad Price-Bernier analogy, is that, at the age that Price was putting good to bad to average seasons, Bernier had problems even playing in the league. And guess what, Price had to learn his job through bad seasons. Not playing second fiddle, facing easier matchups like Bernier did.

Not Bernier's fault Quick was there and I agree. But is is what it is.

And also, what make Price being in the conversation of one of the best, is that he did play the games, and more (playoffs and olympics). And posted better numbers and brought better results then an extrapolated Bernier. So to answer your quesiton. Yes, if Bernier had the same numbers and the same number of games, and the same good playoffs, and the same olympic gold medal as Price, he'd be in the same tier as Price.

I'll just finish this by saying I'm a fan of Bernier and I believe the Leafs have a good one. But I don't see where bringing hypothetical scenarios makes you win your point.
 

sharks9

Registered User
Jan 16, 2012
16,444
2,604
Canada
Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

No, it doesn't mean that. If you're only using starting goalies then you should only be using top-line forwards. In that case there's 15 elite forwards in the NHL which isn't unreasonable at all.
 

noelllll*

Guest
Okay, well I'm done posting here seeing as it doesn't look like I'm changing any minds.

I'm sure there are many that wouldn't put Price in elite, just like there are many that do..

Although TIL that "elite" is subjective and we're not all going to agree on what defines it in this league. Until now I thought it was pretty cut-n-dry (pretty much if you're going into HHOF, you're elite). Guess not...

G'day folks (the kind ones), to the rest: EDIT

:)
 
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Lebowski

El Duderino
Dec 5, 2010
17,585
5,218
From my lifetime names like Roy, Hasek, Brodeur etc.. come to mind. THESE are ELITE goalies. It's honestly an insult to players of that caliber to call Price elite at this point..

Coming from someone that puts that much emphasis on SV%, you may find it interesting that Price has as many full seasons above .920% as both Roy and Brodeur in their entire career.

Does that mean they were never elite? :sarcasm:

Not enough consistent, I bet.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
75,109
44,911
smh.. Malkin is CONSISTENT. Get it through your thick skulls, guys. Price hasn't been consistent season to season. That's ALL there is to it.
He has been, you just haven't been paying attention. He's pulled an undeserving team into the playoffs two times in the past four years and is doing it again now. In 2012 he played great on a last place team. THAT'S NOT A BAD SEASON. And in 2013 (a season you referred to as bad) he actually played extremely well for most of the year and finished in 10th in Vezina voting. Hardly a bad season.

As I explained to you before, you are looking at ONE stat only and extrapolating from there. Outside of maybe a half dozen games at the shortened 2013 season he's been amazingly consistent. That's why when you look at your favourite stat (save percentage) since 2011 he's sitting there in the top five.
FYI: He's not fighting James Reimer for the starting job, at all, but that shows how much you really know about him though..
I know enough about him to see that it's still a bit of a platoon situation over there. And I have no idea why you're bringing him into this conversation. The guy isn't even really an established starter in the NHL yet.

Lots of time for him to have a great career (he's only 26) but way too early for him to be mentioned here.
Playing in the NHL at 19-20 and sucking isn't something you should be proud of..
4th in Calder voting. 9th in Vezina voting his first year in the league. Won his first playoff series against the Bruins in a 7th game shutout. You have a strange definition of "sucking."
Bernier played behind Quick, had Price been drafted by LA so would he.. So I don't see your point there? Unless you're gonna tell me that Price would have been the starter and Quick the backup? :laugh:
Bernier got the shaft, no doubt about that. And he might still have a great career. But it's unfair to him to compare him to the elite goalies in the league when he's been the starter for one season.
And Price had several "non-elite" (modestly put) years as recently as the season before last, and the one before that too. What's the excuse there? He wasn't young. He had already had a good season under his belt, so he knew what it takes to win and be good in the NHL. So why can't he put together two solid season in a row, until MAYBE this year? The terrible Montreal team in front of him? lmao

I'm not saying Bernier is better than Price in reality, only in that hypothetical. And if that hypothetical does become true, then by all your standards Bernier should be considered top5 / elite. Right?
Carey Price

Age: 27
Career Starts: 383
Career SA: 11,702
Career Save PCT: .917
Save pct 13-14,14-15: .925
Save pct 5yr: .920 (4th)
Career GPS: 77.9

Vezina Finishes:
4 x top 10
2 x top five

Hart finishes:
1x top 10
3x top 20

Notable: Canada Cup Gold Medal Starter


Johnathan Bernier

Age: 26
Career Starts: 123
Career SA: 3994
Career Save Pct: .918
Save pct 13-14,14-15: .922
Save pct 5yr: .919 (not enough games to qualify)
Career GPS 26.5

Vezina finishes:
None

Hart finishes:
None

Notable: Thinks Nelson Mandela was a great hockey player.

Yeah, it's pretty close...
 
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Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,536
27,066
smh.. Malkin is CONSISTENT. Get it through your thick skulls, guys. Price hasn't been consistent season to season. That's ALL there is to it.

Because skaters are measured primarily on "totals", where goaltenders are measured primarily on "averages", it's significantly harder for goaltender statistics to appear consistent on the level that skaters do. It's a consequence of mathematics, not of player consistency.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Check a few cases for yourself if you don't believe me.

Thanks for the derogatory comment about the thickness of my skull, though. I've had ten concussions, and it's not something that I'm proud of. Thanks for picking at that scab.
 

Nynja*

Guest
What are Price's stats when you factor out those blowout games, when Therrien's system got the team down 2-3 goals in the first period, and the team clearly stopped trying after?

I know you cant just "factor out" the bad games, since wins come with losses, but watching those games where the habs were down 2-3 in the first, you can visibly see they just stopped trying.
 

habsolutle

Registered User
Dec 4, 2014
133
0
Price career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Bad
-Average
-Good
-Average
-Bad
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 4/8 seasons were good.. That's not elite, bro

Bernier career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 2/2 seasons were good

SO, if we were to extrapolate THIS season (why would we do it for last season, it's done?), it'll have taken Price 8 YEARS in the NHL to string together 2 solid seasons back to back.. Bernier did it in his first 2 seasons.

So is Bernier elite at that point? Top 5?


BTW: I find it very funny that no one is answering what happens if Price has another bad season. As if you all know I'm right. Once you're elite, that's it, you're elite. Look at Brodeur, he's an elite goalie I'm sure everyone agrees and he's nowhere near the top 5 right now. Why is that? HE PROVED HIMSELF. Price hasn't proven ****.
ask around the league any gm, who would they pick number 1 , i can assure you price name would come up a lot while bernier..well only is mother would chose him first..
 

M.C.G. 31

Damn, he brave!
Oct 6, 2008
96,268
18,936
Ottawa
I didn't know numbers were the be all end all. There's this thing called WATCHING someone play. Anyone who watches Price play wouldn't even consider calling him overrated.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,536
27,066
I didn't know numbers were the be all end all. There's this thing called WATCHING someone play. Anyone who watches Price play wouldn't even consider calling him overrated.

You can see it in the numbers, too.

Currently, Price's average 2014-15 opponent is 0.15 goals better than average - among goaltenders with ten or more appearances this year, only Hiller, Lack, Emery, Varlamov, Anderson, Lehner, and Neuvirth score out higher than this (Price is 8th of 44 by this metric).

And when you play better opponents, your numbers will suffer.

Compare to last year, where Price's average opponent was 0.15 goals *worse* than average, and that helps explain his great numbers. Or compare to Jonathan Quick this year, who's average opponent is 0.21 goals worse than average.
 

poetryinmotion

Registered User
Jul 12, 2011
5,876
159
I didn't know numbers were the be all end all. There's this thing called WATCHING someone play. Anyone who watches Price play wouldn't even consider calling him overrated.

This. How can anyone not call Price an elite/top5/wtv goalie is beyond me. He IS the Canadiens.
 

jeangauthier

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
1,994
25
Montreal,Canada
Okay, well I'm done posting here seeing as it doesn't look like I'm changing any minds.

I'm sure there are many that wouldn't put Price in elite, just like there are many that do..

Although TIL that "elite" is subjective and we're not all going to agree on what defines it in this league. Until now I thought it was pretty cut-n-dry (pretty much if you're going into HHOF, you're elite). Guess not...

G'day folks (the kind ones), to the rest: EDIT

:)

Your judgement and definition of elite is flawed there for you won't change anyone's mind...........you even have Spock and Tuvok raising an eyebrow........;) .................
 

ottawa

Avatar of the Year*
Nov 7, 2012
33,738
10,306
Orléans/Toronto
Bump, just because.

He's been doing so great this season, I don't even think the biggest habs hater could think him of all hab are overrated
 

Lebowski

El Duderino
Dec 5, 2010
17,585
5,218
5 years ago, he would have melted after giving up that weak early goal. He had all the talent then, but failed to put it all together. Consistency issues, mostly.

A successful goalie is 50% talent, 50% mental. When you're confident, you play on your toes, you defy shots, you trust your instincts... When you're not, you feel like you couldn't even stop a beach ball. And when you don't have maturity, you can easily sway from a high to a low.

Price is mature, now. He's the leader of the team and at 27 years old, he's at the age where most elite goalies tend to establish themselves.

Been saying this since he entered the league... He is the most talented keeper out there. He figured out the other half of what being a goalie -not any goalie, a GREAT goalie - is about. Sky is the limit.
 
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ottawa

Avatar of the Year*
Nov 7, 2012
33,738
10,306
Orléans/Toronto
^ That first goal he let in :help:

He came back so strong after that...the guys mental game is unreal, he doesn't get fazed by anything.
 

Rosso Scuderia

Registered User
Jun 30, 2012
9,932
4,115
Ask any players on the league, I'm sure they would put Price easily top 5 and arguably top 3 in the league.

At the end of the day, as a Habs fan, I don't really care what others think of Carey Price, there isn't any goalie in the league I would take over him.
 

Braunbaer

Registered User
May 21, 2012
3,752
1,101
^ That first goal he let in :help:

He came back so strong after that...the guys mental game is unreal, he doesn't get fazed by anything.

I guess all the years getting booed by his own "fans" made him kinda thick-skinned.
 

jacks*

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
11,311
3
Okay, well I'm done posting here seeing as it doesn't look like I'm changing any minds.

I'm sure there are many that wouldn't put Price in elite, just like there are many that do..

Although TIL that "elite" is subjective and we're not all going to agree on what defines it in this league. Until now I thought it was pretty cut-n-dry (pretty much if you're going into HHOF, you're elite). Guess not...

G'day folks (the kind ones), to the rest: EDIT

:)

Top 5 = elite. C-YA.:thumbu:
 

viceroy

Registered User
Mar 5, 2011
1,755
803
Montreal suburbs
Well that's exactly it. I would consider one to be elite when they separate themselves from the other top goalies in the league. The only one right now being Quick. He is the only elite goalie in the NHL, and another cup / couple deep runs and he'll be solidified as one of the best in history, at least in this generation.

Are you comparing Quick to Roy or Hasek? Comparing a good goaltender on a stacked team to Roy that dragged the '93 Habs to an improbable cup win? or Hasek that brought his Sabres to the finals through sheer will?

Yeah Quick's pretty damned good but have you seen the team he's on?
 
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