Is Carey Price Overrated? Part II

[No Fun Shogun]

Not sure if this really needs another topic, and might just go ahead and close this one early if it turns out it doesn't, but last one hit a thousand:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1768881

Click to read more...

 

[noelllll*]

Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

 

[Lurked4Yearz]

Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

So the top 5 goalies playing in the highest level of hockey on the planet are not elite goalies? There are 2 million people playing hockey on Earth.

 

[CanadienShark]

Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

When any of the top 5 (Price, Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, Rask) are virtually interchangeable, does that mean there are no elite goaltenders?

 

[noelllll*]

So the top 5 goalies playing in the highest level of hockey on the planet are not elite goalies?

Come on now.. Using that standard any goalie to even come close to making the NHL would be considered elite on a planet with ~7 billion people...

When any of the top 5 (Price, Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, Rask) are virtually interchangeable, does that mean there are no elite goaltenders?

Maybe.. Depends what your idea of elite is. Look back in NHL history at the best goaltenders over the years.

From my lifetime names like Roy, Hasek, Brodeur etc.. come to mind. THESE are ELITE goalies. It's honestly an insult to players of that caliber to call Price elite at this point..

 

[Lurked4Yearz]

Come on now.. Using that standard any goalie to even come close to making the NHL would be considered elite on a planet with ~7 billion people...

But where do you draw the line? A group comprised of 5 goalies is not watering down the term at all, these guys are the best of the best in terms of professional goalies.

 

[CanadienShark]

Come on now.. Using that standard any goalie to even come close to making the NHL would be considered elite on a planet with ~7 billion people...




Maybe.. Depends what your idea of elite is. Look back in NHL history at the best goaltenders over the years.

From my lifetime names like Roy, Hasek, Brodeur etc.. come to mind. THESE are ELITE goalies. It's honestly an insult to players of that caliber to call Price elite at this point..

Those are generational talents - the greatest to play the game. Currently, I see 5 elite goalies, which are the cream of the crop in the NHL now. There's no set number, and it's totally opinion based.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Come on now.. Using that standard any goalie to even come close to making the NHL would be considered elite on a planet with ~7 billion people...




Maybe.. Depends what your idea of elite is. Look back in NHL history at the best goaltenders over the years.

From my lifetime names like Roy, Hasek, Brodeur etc.. come to mind. THESE are ELITE goalies. It's honestly an insult to players of that caliber to call Price elite at this point..

So you've been wasting our time arguing semantics. There are no elite goalies in the league right now by your definition.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Come on now.. Using that standard any goalie to even come close to making the NHL would be considered elite on a planet with ~7 billion people...

Maybe.. Depends what your idea of elite is. Look back in NHL history at the best goaltenders over the years.

From my lifetime names like Roy, Hasek, Brodeur etc.. come to mind. THESE are ELITE goalies. It's honestly an insult to players of that caliber to call Price elite at this point..

Nobody is comparing Price - or Quick or Rask for that matter - to ANY of those guys. It's ridiculous to try to compare guys who are entering their prime now to goalies who's careers are over with. Nobody compared any of these guys to freaking Hasek, you're being ridiculous here. It's like comparing say... John Tavares to Yzerman... Tavares is just getting started. Who knows how good he'll be. You're also using three of the best goalies of all time as the measuring stick for elite? I guess Crosby isn't elite either since he's not as good as Gretzky or Lemieux. For Pete's sake Price is only 27 years old. You think any of even that elite list were considered the best of all time at the time they were 27? Think again. Hasek had only played 26 games as compared to Price by now... and Price already has almost 200 wins. Impossible to compare these players.

The fact of the matter is that goaltending is much better than it was 30 years ago and there's a lot more parity. The goalies overall are just plain better. Back in the day there were a couple of elite guys who were head and shoulders better and that's not the case now. There's a group of about five goaltenders who are interchangeable in terms of being the best and the 2nd tier isn't that far behind. Those top five are still elite though.

 

[sheed36]

Not sure if this really needs another topic, and might just go ahead and close this one early if it turns out it doesn't, but last one hit a thousand:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1768881

I don't think it does but I don't think he's overrated and he's a top 5 goalie in the NHL right now. The last thread was pretty much going no where and not accomplishing much and I suspect it will be the same waste of time in this one.

 

[beowulf]

Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

Terrible way of looking at it. There could be 10 elite goaltenders at one time or there could be one it has nothing to do with the # of positions available in the league but with the ability to play the game.

Can't believe there is a second thread on this subject...

 

[noelllll*]

Those are generational talents - the greatest to play the game. Currently, I see 5 elite goalies, which are the cream of the crop in the NHL now. There's no set number, and it's totally opinion based.

Well that's exactly it. I would consider one to be elite when they separate themselves from the other top goalies in the league. The only one right now being Quick. He is the only elite goalie in the NHL, and another cup / couple deep runs and he'll be solidified as one of the best in history, at least in this generation. So that in 20 years when all these guys are forgotten his name will be the one that is remembered.

So you've been wasting our time arguing semantics. There are no elite goalies in the league right now by your definition.

Exactly. I think you guys are being too liberal with naming people elite.

I asked this in the last one right before it got closed:

If the season ended today (or all goalies finished at the pace they're at now), would you consider Bernier elite? Or even top 5? Why or why not?

Nobody is comparing Price - or Quick or Rask for that matter - to ANY of those guys. It's ridiculous to try to compare guys who are entering their prime now to goalies who's careers are over with. Nobody compared any of these guys to freaking Hasek, you're being ridiculous here. It's like comparing say... John Tavares to Yzerman... Tavares is just getting started. Who knows how good he'll be.

The fact of the matter is that goaltending is much better than it was 30 years ago and there's a lot more parity. The goalies overall are just plain better. Back in the day there were a couple of elite guys who were head and shoulders better and that's not the case now. There's a group of about five goaltenders who are interchangeable in terms of being the best and the 2nd tier isn't that far behind.

The thing is, by calling him elite, you ARE comparing him to these people.. What would happen if he had a bad, like real bad, season this year? He wouldn't be elite any more? And then great season next year, elite again? That's not how it works...

 

[Frank Drebin]

Well, I'll just finish with this:

It seems to me that a lot of you think Top 5 = Elite. Which I would disagree with. Simply because that would equal about 17% of all starting goalies being elite, and that's assuming there are 30 goalies that play enough games. Which really waters down the term.

To put that into perspective, out of all the forwards in the league (using 17%), that would mean there are ~60 elite forwards in the NHL right now. Which isn't even kind of close..

Price is a top 5 goalie right now but is not elite IMO.

Well you could say there are 30 first lines in the NHL, so that is 90 players.

Thats about 15 elite NHL forwards.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The thing is, by calling him elite, you ARE comparing him to these people.. What would happen if he had a bad, like real bad, season this year? He wouldn't be elite any more? And then great season next year, elite again? That's not how it works...

No you aren't!

You can only compare players against their contemporaries. They are elite relative to the players that they compete against. Otherwise the term "elite" loses all context and there's no such thing as an elite player. So Crosby isn't elite because he's not Gordie Howe, Ovechkin isn't elite because he's not Mario Lemieux... ridiculous.

So NO you don't have to compare Carey Price to Dominik Hasek to say he's elite. It's totally silly to do this.

 

[kingdok]

I asked this in the last one right before it got closed:

If the season ended today (or all goalies finished at the pace they're at now), would you consider Bernier elite? Or even top 5? Why or why not?

I don't see the point of bringing Bernier into this discussion when the max games he played in a season is 55, followed by 25.

 

[noelllll*]

No you aren't!

You can only compare players against their contemporaries. They are elite relative to the players that they compete against. Otherwise the term "elite" loses all context and there's no such thing as an elite player. So Crosby isn't elite because he's not Gordie Howe, Ovechkin isn't elite because he's not Mario Lemieux... ridiculous.

So NO you don't have to compare Carey Price to Dominik Hasek to say he's elite. It's totally silly to do this.

Funny, you didn't answer my question.. Please, answer. I want learn more about what you Montreal fans consider good enough to be elite. Also, answer the Bernier question too. Anything other than "Yes, he would be top 5 and elite, arguably better than Price" would be a joke.

"Elite" being thrown around like a two-cent *****..


EDIT:

I don't see the point of bringing Bernier into this discussion when the max games he played in a season is 55, followed by 25.

The point is Price has had 2 good seasons and nothing more. If Bernier finishes this season and ends up with 2 full seasons in the NHL with 2 good seasons, would he be better than Price? Since he didn't have bad seasons in between? On a team that's arguably worse?

 

[CanadienShark]

Well that's exactly it. I would consider one to be elite when they separate themselves from the other top goalies in the league. The only one right now being Quick. He is the only elite goalie in the NHL, and another cup / couple deep runs and he'll be solidified as one of the best in history, at least in this generation. So that in 20 years when all these guys are forgotten his name will be the one that is remembered.



Exactly. I think you guys are being too liberal with naming people elite.

I asked this in the last one right before it got closed:

If the season ended today (or all goalies finished at the pace they're at now), would you consider Bernier elite? Or even top 5? Why or why not?



The thing is, by calling him elite, you ARE comparing him to these people.. What would happen if he had a bad, like real bad, season this year? He wouldn't be elite any more? And then great season next year, elite again? That's not how it works...

The definition of elite is: "a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities."

So by that, I'd assert there is more than one elite goalie. All time, perhaps they wouldn't be elite compared to other generational goalies.

 

[kingdok]

Funny, you didn't answer my question.. Please, answer. I want learn more about what you Montreal fans consider good enough to be elite. Also, answer the Bernier question too. Anything other than "Yes, he would be top 5 and elite, arguably better than Price" would be a joke.

"Elite" being thrown around like a two-cent *****..


EDIT:


The point is Price has had 2 good seasons and nothing more. If Bernier finishes this season and ends up with 2 full seasons in the NHL with 2 good seasons, would he be better than Price? Since he didn't have bad seasons in between? On a team that's arguably worse?

I still don't get this. If we favorably extrapolate both seasons (last season and this season) to starter's number of games, Bernier still fall behind Price in every categories. Don't know what you're trying here.

 

[noelllll*]

I still don't get this. If we favorably extrapolate both seasons (last season and this season) to starter's number of games, Bernier still fall behind Price in every categories. Don't know what you're trying here.

Price career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Bad
-Average
-Good
-Average
-Bad
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 4/8 seasons were good.. That's not elite, bro

Bernier career playing 40+ games:
-Good
-Good*

TOTAL: 2/2 seasons were good

SO, if we were to extrapolate THIS season (why would we do it for last season, it's done?), it'll have taken Price 8 YEARS in the NHL to string together 2 solid seasons back to back.. Bernier did it in his first 2 seasons.

So is Bernier elite at that point? Top 5?


BTW: I find it very funny that no one is answering what happens if Price has another bad season. As if you all know I'm right. Once you're elite, that's it, you're elite. Look at Brodeur, he's an elite goalie I'm sure everyone agrees and he's nowhere near the top 5 right now. Why is that? HE PROVED HIMSELF. Price hasn't proven ****.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Price certainly has Boston's number right now

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Funny, you didn't answer my question..

What question? The one where if a player has a bad year he's not elite? Elite players can have off years dude. Evgeni Malkin has had off years... still elite. Same for any of these top five guys.

Please, answer. I want learn more about what you Montreal fans consider good enough to be elite. Also, answer the Bernier question too. Anything other than "Yes, he would be top 5 and elite, arguably better than Price" would be a joke.

There's a Bernier question? What question?

"Elite" being thrown around like a two-cent *****..

Well, maybe if you try to apply it to Bernier I'd agree with you.

EDIT:
The point is Price has had 2 good seasons and nothing more. If Bernier finishes this season and ends up with 2 full seasons in the NHL with 2 good seasons, would he be better than Price? Since he didn't have bad seasons in between? On a team that's arguably worse?

Price has had more than two good seasons man. He's 27 years old and has 195 wins under him on mostly bad teams. Bernier has played a total of 139 games in his career and the most he's played in a season is 55. No, he's not close to any of those elite players. Hell, he's fighting James Reimer for the starting job as it is.

 

[Devourers]

Bringing Bernier into the discussion the guy didn't start a full season until he was 25. Price was starting for us while the guy was still in diapers (figuratively speaking) and goalies generally aren't supposed to be playing in the NHL at the age of 19-20 but he was and played a lot of games.

You want to compare the fact that Bernier has 2 elite years out of 2 when Price has 2 out of several, factor in the fact that Price was you know, able to actually accomplish playing in this league at that age, as a starter, while Bernier was polishing skates on LA's bench.

Give me a break the comparison is laughable and I like Bernier and do believe he'll eventually be an elite goalie in this league, but your comparison of Price and him is flawed to say the least. You're saying Price had several non-elite years, the guy was in his early 20s starting for a bubble team and helping us make the post season, Bernier for all intents and purposes was a backup mostly playing cheerleader on the bench. But hey if you wanna make that comparison go ahead.

 

[paulster2626]

Bringing Bernier into the discussion the guy didn't start a full season until he was 25. Price was starting for us while the guy was still in diapers (figuratively speaking) and goalies generally aren't supposed to be playing in the NHL at the age of 19-20 but he was and played a lot of games.

You want to compare the fact that Bernier has 2 elite years out of 2 when Price has 2 out of several, factor in the fact that Price was you know, able to actually accomplish playing in this league at that age, as a starter, while Bernier was polishing skates on LA's bench.

Give me a break the comparison is laughable and I like Bernier and do believe he'll eventually be an elite goalie in this league, but your comparison of Price and him is flawed to say the least. You're saying Price had several non-elite years, the guy was in his early 20s starting for a bubble team and helping us make the post season, Bernier for all intents and purposes was a backup mostly playing cheerleader on the bench. But hey if you wanna make that comparison go ahead.

Would take Price over Bernier on my team 10 days a week and 6 times on Sundays or however the saying goes.

A Price in the hand is worth 3 Berniers in the bush.

 

[noelllll*]

What question? The one where if a player has a bad year he's not elite? Elite players can have off years dude. Evgeni Malkin has had off years... still elite. Same for any of these top five guys.

There's a Bernier question? What question?

Well, maybe if you try to apply it to Bernier I'd agree with you.


Price has had more than two good seasons man. He's 27 years old and has 195 wins under him on mostly bad teams. Bernier has played a total of 139 games in his career and the most he's played in a season is 55. No, he's not close to any of those elite players. Hell, he's fighting James Reimer for the starting job as it is.

smh.. Malkin is CONSISTENT. Get it through your thick skulls, guys. Price hasn't been consistent season to season. That's ALL there is to it.

FYI: He's not fighting James Reimer for the starting job, at all, but that shows how much you really know about him though..

Bringing Bernier into the discussion the guy didn't start a full season until he was 25. Price was starting for us while the guy was still in diapers (figuratively speaking) and goalies generally aren't supposed to be playing in the NHL at the age of 19-20 but he was and played a lot of games.

You want to compare the fact that Bernier has 2 elite years out of 2 when Price has 2 out of several, factor in the fact that Price was you know, able to actually accomplish playing in this league at that age, as a starter, while Bernier was polishing skates on LA's bench.

Give me a break the comparison is laughable and I like Bernier and do believe he'll eventually be an elite goalie in this league, but your comparison of Price and him is flawed to say the least. You're saying Price had several non-elite years, the guy was in his early 20s starting for a bubble team and helping us make the post season, Bernier for all intents and purposes was a backup mostly playing cheerleader on the bench. But hey if you wanna make that comparison go ahead.

Playing in the NHL at 19-20 and sucking isn't something you should be proud of..

Bernier played behind Quick, had Price been drafted by LA so would he.. So I don't see your point there? Unless you're gonna tell me that Price would have been the starter and Quick the backup?

And Price had several "non-elite" (modestly put) years as recently as the season before last, and the one before that too. What's the excuse there? He wasn't young. He had already had a good season under his belt, so he knew what it takes to win and be good in the NHL. So why can't he put together two solid season in a row, until MAYBE this year? The terrible Montreal team in front of him? lmao

I'm not saying Bernier is better than Price in reality, only in that hypothetical. And if that hypothetical does become true, then by all your standards Bernier should be considered top5 / elite. Right?

 

[higgs011]

Clearly the definition of the word "elite" means different things to different people. Brodeur is one of the best tenders of all time, but is he "elite" right now? No. No he is not. Lol.