Value of: In the Future - a 2C to the New York Rangers

[Kupo]

View attachment 259051
Again I'll state that 3 different hockey sites agree with me.... Evolving hockey, Meta-hockey and mile high hockey all said he's no better than 30....

Hahahah, Prashanth ****ing Iyer. This is the same guy that thinks Mantha has a top-10 wrist shot in the NHL. By his numbers, Mika's an average 2nd line Center in the NHL.

Yea, pardon me for not giving a damn about his opinion. The sad thing is I've asked you to provide your list and instead of manning up you make references to analytic sites without actually providing any of their data proving why Zbad is a 2nd line center.

 

[BackhandToedrag]

Hahahah, Prashanth ****ing Iyer. This is the same guy that thinks Mantha has a top-10 wrist shot in the NHL. By his numbers, Mika's an average 2nd line Center in the NHL.

Yea, pardon me for not giving a damn about his opinion. The sad thing is I've asked you to provide your list and instead of manning up you make references to analytic sites without actually providing any of their data proving why Zbad is a 2nd line center.

I'm done talking about him I stated my opinion and had it backed up by 3 hockey sites if you still disagree that's fine but I don't think anything I say will change your mind I posted the list twice this summer once in the Zibanejad for 4thOA thread and once in another thread if your that worried about flaming me for not thinking zib is some elite talent go look up my list and your ranger fan boys can tell me again how "drai isn't a center" and "you'd rather have zib than Malkin"
P.s. you have seen my list and you've commented on it

 

[Heckler81]

I find this thread to be hysterical....

Ziba was 20th in the league for points by a Center last year. He was also 25 years old during the season so he’s young.

It’s comical for people to rank him in the 30-50 range for Centers. On top of that, he is going to be teamed up with Panarin and Buch/Kakko.

If healthy, he will score more points this year compared to last year. If anything, he should be ranked 20th as a worst case scenario.

 

[Kupo]

I'm done talking about him I stated my opinion and had it backed up by 3 hockey sites if you still disagree that's fine but I don't think anything I say will change your mind I posted the list twice this summer once in the Zibanejad for 4thOA thread and once in another thread if your that worried about flaming me for not thinking zib is some elite talent go look up my list and your ranger fan boys can tell me again how "drai isn't a center" and "you'd rather have zib than Malkin"
P.s. you have seen my list and you've commented on it

I remember that list. I also remember @One Winged Angel ripping it to shreds. Here's that post of a reminder.

1. Trocheck played 55 games and had 34 points. Do some better research the next time.

2. Larkin is just over 3 years younger. He turns 23 in 11 days. Not a “huge” gap by any means. Larkin has also been in the league for a while.

3. Who cares if Draisaitl is playing wing? If he’s playing the WING then he’s a WINGER and isn’t included in this conversation. You made the parameters and then want to move the goalposts?

4. Again the discussion is about right now, so you keep talking about what happened 5 years ago as if it matters when it doesn’t. Duchene scoring 70 points in 2014 has exactly what bearing on this very moment?

5. Monahan has played with Gaudreau from his 2nd season until now. If you flip flop the two of them, the results would favor Zibanejad. Stop acting like Gaudreau has nothing to do with Monahan’s production.

6. Couturier didn’t crack 70 points until he started playing with Giroux and Zibanejad despite not having any type of comparable talent with him, put up almost identical numbers to Couturier this year.

Your list had 29 players, and there were quite a few doozies there which will put Zbad in the 25~ range.

Whatever point you're trying to prove is pathetic. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, which is why you have to use advanced analytics to make the point for you. The real comical thing here is you failed to mentioned why these advanced analytical stats are saying Zbad is in the range you claim he is.

 

[BackhandToedrag]

I remember that list. I also remember @One Winged Angel ripping it to shreds. Here's that post of a reminder.



Your list had 29 players, and there were quite a few doozies there which will put Zbad in the 25~ range.

Whatever point you're trying to prove is pathetic. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, which is why you have to use advanced analytics to make the point for you. The real comical thing here is you failed to mentioned why these advanced analytical stats are saying Zbad is in the range you claim he is.

It's been fun chatting with you

 

[Kupo]

It's been fun chatting with you

I wish I can say the same.

 

[BackhandToedrag]

I wish I can say the same.

Lol... stay bitter dude it suits you well

 

[Kupo]

Lol... stay bitter dude it suits you well

 

[TGWL]

I'm done talking about him I stated my opinion and had it backed up by 3 hockey sites if you still disagree that's fine but I don't think anything I say will change your mind I posted the list twice this summer once in the Zibanejad for 4thOA thread and once in another thread if your that worried about flaming me for not thinking zib is some elite talent go look up my list and your ranger fan boys can tell me again how "drai isn't a center" and "you'd rather have zib than Malkin"
P.s. you have seen my list and you've commented on it

No, it's not we rather have Zibanejad over LD, but you can't toss him in a center ranking when he hasn't done enough to prove that at an NHL level.

If you're going to toss him in a ranking of being a 2c, that's fine, but then don't include wingers in that ranking. Even if you want to call him a 30-40, being a 1st line winger doesn't mean you need to be in the best 30 centers. Penguins absolutely have 2 first line centers. Toronto absolutely has 2 first line centers. Assuming it's a lower 30 number by your ranking, he's still most likely a #1, even if you want to call him a low #1.

Can he take a step back? Sure. Until then he's closer to a #1 than a #2.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Just clone Zbad so they can have two 2Cs

 

[Ola]

Come on, Zibanejad is easily a No 1 center in the NHL. He is also really growing into his game and he is still improving, many other big name centers are moving in the other direction in a hurry. And it’s really not close.

Advanced stats? Lol that carried weight 3 years ago, now everyone can look back at all the extremely horrible reads the analytics community made, nobody can seriously build an argument based on that anymore (unless you only move in some circles on twitter). It’s an important tool, but sorry, corsi scouting or some version of it don’t work. A player can totally change his analytic foot print over night when changing teams. They cannot even remotely filter the outside influence. And it’s not like Ziba has bad metrics.

With that said, I also totally fail to see the relevance of this topic for this thread.

The better center NYR can develop from within or acquire the better. It’s not like it’s overkill to have two great centers.

 

[Dan Kelly]

I would have to think that if the Oilers can’t re-sign Nuge that he would be a good fit for the Rangers?

 

[One Winged Angel]

I would have to think that if the Oilers can’t re-sign Nuge that he would be a good fit for the Rangers?

I’m not a big fan, but I’d also assume they’ll look for someone younger.

 

[bigdog16]

bUt ThReE wEbSiTeS SaY sOoO

 

[Dan Kelly]

I’m not a big fan, but I’d also assume they’ll look for someone younger.

“Not a big fan” of an almost 70 point center? Why?

 

[Ola]

I have a very strict blueprint for how whatever center they get should look.

First of all, even if NYR has a ton of skill (I can't believe I can write this) on the wings, their young forward are all BIG. Kravy, Buch, Kakko and co, they are 6'2-6'4. The game today is soooo much about speed and intensity, bigger guys can never compete with the 5'9-11 forwards in that field.

I certainly think that whatever center they add -- if there still is a need for that after Lias and Chytil has grown some more, Karl Henriksson has arrived and so forth -- must be a smaller speedster.

Second of all, it doesn't matter much if that center isn't much of a shooter or even playmaker in terms of being able to set up goals, but he must be really good at getting the puck up ice and to his wingers. Someone that really can hold together a unit from defensive to the wing.

Third of all, there is often talk about how its so valuable to have RHS at center, but with Ziba already on board and the talent we have at RW -- I think its almost a positive if the center is a LW.

In this last draft, I think Alex Turcotte would have been perfect for what NYR might need down the road. A young Zetterberg. I also think Newhook would have been darn interesting...

 

[One Winged Angel]

“Not a big fan” of an almost 70 point center? Why?

Just reminds me of a better version of Stepan. Want a player in a different mold. Don’t see him as that major difference maker down the middle that would help the team get over the top. Would rather draft a young center.

Not saying he’s a bad player, but I’ve never been a big fan of his.

 

[Waivers]

View attachment 259051
Again I'll state that 3 different hockey sites agree with me.... Evolving hockey, Meta-hockey and mile high hockey all said he's no better than 30....

Please, humor us all on the 30+ Centers who are better than Zibanejad in the NHL. If you start going off the Richter scale and rambling names like Kadri, Schenn, and Karlsson you should see yourself out. Absolutely clueless statement to make.

 

[cwede]

I would have to think that if the Oilers can’t re-sign Nuge that he would be a good fit for the Rangers?

if NYR spend that king of money, I'd rather NYR keep Kreider

i'd prefer a center NYR add from the outside to be an upswing ~24-year-old

 

[Dan Kelly]

if NYR spend that king of money, I'd rather NYR keep Kreider

i'd prefer a center NYR add from the outside to be an upswing ~24-year-old

good luck finding one as really no team has one to spare and nobody is trading a player like that with "upswing" for a 1st round pick !

 

[Seanaconda]

But if his offensive ability fades as is standard for guys on the wrong side of 30 that have accumulated a ton of playoff miles, he becomes a defensive specialist making elite level money.

I'm not as confident as you that he has 3-4 more 60+point seasons left and anything less for 10 million is a terrible contract.

That's Rick Nash (last two seasons) bad.

like kopitar is a year removed from a hart top 3 season , his offense fluctuates a bit now but look at his team / wingers he has to work with. dustin brown has been his best winger for most years .

the guy is a tad overworked in LA cuz he is their best center/forward at both ends.

 

[sparxx87]

View attachment 259051
Again I'll state that 3 different hockey sites agree with me.... Evolving hockey, Meta-hockey and mile high hockey all said he's no better than 30....

I’d love to hear you name 30 better centremen?

Also, your boy is a fraud with no actual credentials in hockey. Probably not the best source to use when trying to support such an egregious argument.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I’d love to hear you name 30 better centremen?

Also, your boy is a fraud with no actual credentials in hockey. Probably not the best source to use when trying to support such an egregious argument.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but let me try an off the cuff ranking. I'm thinking guys like Giroux, Stamkos, Lindholm and Draisaitl mainly play winger now? (could be wrong but that's what I assumed). Not everyone will agree, which is fine, but it's how I see it.

Not debatable at all: 9
McDavid
Crosby
MacKinnon
Tavares
Matthews
Scheiffle
Malkin (if healthy)
Bergeron
Barkov

Not very debatable: 5
Point
Eichel
Aho
Seguin
Backstrom


Debatable: 11
Couturier (who I really think might belong in the category above because of his overall game)
ROR
Monahan
Larkin
Kuznetszov
Barzal (might need to put him in 1 category up)
Pettersson (needs to be proven, but I'm projecting here).
Hertl (does he play only C?)
Toews
Duchene
Trocheck

Even if I missed a few guys (which I'm sure I did), incorrectly assumed some guys are wingers, and give ALL the debatable the benefit of the doubt (which I wouldn't), it's hard for me to come up with more than 30 better than Zib.

Caveats:
* Assuming some of the older guys don't fall off a cliff.
** Assuming Zib repeats or builds on his last season and it's not a 1 off (same goes for a few other guys though).
*** No Rookies are included.

 

[pld459666]

like kopitar is a year removed from a hart top 3 season , his offense fluctuates a bit now but look at his team / wingers he has to work with. dustin brown has been his best winger for most years .

the guy is a tad overworked in LA cuz he is their best center/forward at both ends.

I will concede your points above.

However, the point remains, hes 32 and has played close to 1100 NHL games and will be fading as an offensive catalyst in the next year or two.

Leaving 3 years at least of being a defensive specialist making 10per.

No thanks

 

[sparxx87]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but let me try an off the cuff ranking. I'm thinking guys like Giroux, Stamkos, Lindholm and Draisaitl mainly play winger now? (could be wrong but that's what I assumed). Not everyone will agree, which is fine, but it's how I see it.

Not debatable at all: 9
McDavid
Crosby
MacKinnon
Tavares
Matthews
Scheiffle
Malkin (if healthy)
Bergeron
Barkov

Not very debatable: 5
Point
Eichel
Aho
Seguin
Backstrom


Debatable: 11
Couturier (who I really think might belong in the category above because of his overall game)
ROR
Monahan
Larkin
Kuznetszov
Barzal (might need to put him in 1 category up)
Pettersson (needs to be proven, but I'm projecting here).
Hertl (does he play only C?)
Toews
Duchene
Trocheck

Even if I missed a few guys (which I'm sure I did), incorrectly assumed some guys are wingers, and give ALL the debatable the benefit of the doubt (which I wouldn't), it's hard for me to come up with more than 30 better than Zib.

Caveats:
* Assuming some of the older guys don't fall off a cliff.
** Assuming Zib repeats or builds on his last season and it's not a 1 off (same goes for a few other guys though).
*** No Rookies are included.

Good post. Much easier when the names are in front of you, thanks! I tend to agree and think he could be fairly ranked anywhere from about 15-25.

Opinions are debatable and fit with team should be considered, but if you’ve got him outside the top 30 you’ve made a mistake.