If the Leafs miss the playoffs, does Dubas keep his job?

[ACC1224]

Just because I'm defending Dubas doesn't mean I'm a bigger fan of him compared to the Leafs and you are 100% wrong to make an assumption like that.

I'm just looking at things from a logical prospective like how he shouldn't get any blame over trading a 1st round pick to get rid of Marleau's contract, since he never signed him to 3 years and $6.25 million AAV.

That’s not a logical perspective at all.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That’s not a logical perspective at all.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[ACC1224]

Let's just agree to disagree.

No matter the cost Dubas gets a free pass on that?
Maybe you didn’t really mean what you said.

 

[Bomber0104]

An observation:

Some of these posters are a bigger fan of KD than they are of the leafs.

You can tell because when someone says they do not like KD or agree with his moves, they get flamed and told that they arent a leaf fan.

Mean while, these same KD fans were among the ones who hated babs the most.

So clearly you can hate someone on the team or in the organization, but it has to be the PC person.

Its baffling, really. I don't remember another time where a leaf gm has had such a cult following even though they have shown nothing but regression since taking over.

Brian Burke.

He had a very rabid, dedicated group of posters defending his every bowel movement regardless of results until the very moment he was fired.

Most have either left the site or had to change usernames.

 

[deprw]

No matter the cost Dubas gets a free pass on that?
Maybe you didn’t really mean what you said.

I feel like an idiot, when I reply you, but when you're bailing about Patrick Marleau trade over and over and over again. I do this.

You sure understand that in cap league (like NHL) it was borderline miracle. That we get one potential contender to pay 4,25 million real dollars and to eat up 6,25 million dollars of used cap space for only 1st round draft pick from another potential playoff team in same conference.

I assume that we both can agree, that if there was BETTER trade available for Kyle Dubas. Kyle Dubas is competent enough of doing that better trade rather than trading away our 1st rounder.

We can't see that alternate future where our cap space would have been eaten by Patrick Marleau, that wanted to PLAY ONLY at Toronto or San Jose or wanted to be BOUGHT OUT.

When we made that trade BUYOUT window was closing and after that we had ONE team that we could have traded Patrick Marleau to:

SAN JOSE SHARKS. That DIDN'T have available cap space for Marleau.

So we can't see alternate future, but at last summer we do as a FACT, that we didn't have enough off-season cap space for Patrick Marleau, Andreas Johnson, Kasperi Kapanen and Mitch Marner. So if Kyle Dubas f***S UP that trade, there is real threat of offer sheets coming and he would have been behind eight ball (trades in real tricky window). Offer sheets for Kapanen or Johnson rather than Marner. Compensation would have been less than 1st rounder.

If I get a chance to choose between Kasperi Kapanen, Andreas Johnson or 1st rounder. I choose those players every time, BECAUSE if we get to pick player that good in mid to late 1st round. It would be very good.

If I have to choose if at start of the season with Kapanen & Johnson or keep our 1st rounder. I take those players every time, because we would be very lucky to draft that kind of talent with that pick.

That trade was unnecessary evil to build our roster for this season. Patrick Marleau was dead weight for us and would have prevented us from playing too competent players instead of him. Boston Bruins is in same situation with David Backes that they want to get rid of.

Lou signed Patrick Marleau to bad contract that we could nothing about during summer 2019. Either way with Marleau we would have been screwed. We cannot force ironman streak Marleau to LTIR, we cannot bury him (since we signed him and only 1mil cap relief), we can't buy him out and every other team (than San Jose Sharks) that acquires him has to buy him out.

To get 6,25mil dead cap space for 4,25 million of real dollars. What luxury.

I think it was miracle that Carolina agreed to that trade. I'm not happy about it, but in best case scenario if we advance in playoffs pick is +20. Big part of our summer was that trade, so we could really build our roster the way it is built.

Would you rather have Andreas Johnson & Kasperi Kapanen or Patrick Marleau & Trevor Moore / Mason Marchment / Kenny Agostino / etc. Marlie player.

I know who I pick and when you say that we could have traded them for some value. You have to remember that in that case (we kept Marleau), we are the team in weak spot to be exploited. In real life we still have those players and can use them later on in trades (from better position).

If you want to argue with me show me a real case in NHL that has been at least in the same ball park, where player was acquired to be bought out for lesser reward.

And if you're going to babble about how "Lou would have done it, because of Dion Phaneuf". Check your facts first. There we lost real dollars (that matter for Melnyk) and Ottawa thought that Phaneuf still had something left in him. Different situation, but great trade for us and Lou.

 

[LeafsNation75]

No matter the cost Dubas gets a free pass on that?
Maybe you didn’t really mean what you said.

It's okay if you don't like what Dubas did trading the 1st round pick and if you want to give Dubas criticism for that I understand.

I just wish more people would realize he wouldn't have had to make that trade if Lou Lamoriello never signed Marleau to start with or at worst only given him a 2 year contract.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lou signed Patrick Marleau to bad contract that we could nothing about during summer 2019. Either way with Marleau we would have been screwed. We cannot force ironman streak Marleau to LTIR, we cannot bury him (since we signed him and only 1mil cap relief), we can't buy him out and every other team (than San Jose Sharks) that acquires him has to buy him out.

Even if Lou was still the Leafs GM and tried to put Marleau on the LTIR you don't think the NHL would find that very suspicious? What injury would he have had all of the sudden since he had played all 82 games since the 2010 season, which includes playing all 48 games in the 2013 lockout season.

 

[egd27]

I ignore them because they are useless. They have very tangential predictive ability at best that shows no strong correlation to on ice results. Until that happens, I don't care about these types of stats.

C'mon now Brannigan, surely you can't question numbers that tell you the team that allowed the fewest goals in the NHL last season was actually bad defensively. We should all realize by now that the actual results have no place in the theoretical world of hockey analysis. Get with it man.

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

For me, the jury is still out on the Marleau trade. It’ll come down to where pick lands.

As for Dubas, it would take a Wilson-era meltdown for firing him to be a possibility.

But the team might have been in its best shape in my lifetime when he took over and the results are starting to decline. The team is springing leaks faster than he can patch them up.

 

[ACC1224]

It's okay if you don't like what Dubas did trading the 1st round pick and if you want to give Dubas criticism for that I understand.

I just wish more people would realize he wouldn't have had to make that trade if Lou Lamoriello never signed Marleau to start with or at worst only given him a 2 year contract.

I realize he had to make a trade as a result of someone else’s action. I don’t agree that he should be above criticism because he had ‘no choice’. I don’t believe that’s an ‘illogical’ view.

 

[LeafsNation75]

For me, the jury is still out on the Marleau trade. It’ll come down to where pick lands.

As for Dubas, it would take a Wilson-era meltdown for firing him to be a possibility.

But the team might have been in its best shape in my lifetime when he took over and the results are starting to decline. The team is springing leaks faster than he can patch them up.

Dubas still deserves the benefit of the doubt and starting next season with Keefe as the coach, since that's who he wanted and who knows what their record would be if Babcock never started this season with them.

Plus do you think MLSE will want to keep paying Dubas if they fire him since they are still paying Babcock and his $6.25 million contract.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I realize he had to make a trade as a result of someone else’s action. I don’t agree that he should be above criticism because he had ‘no choice’. I don’t believe that’s an ‘illogical’ view.

I agree that Dubas is not above critiscism for trades and signings he makes and that includes trading a 1st round pick in order to get rid Marleau. At least among other people on here you recognize how it wasn't Dubas who originally signed him.

 

[hotpaws]

I agree that Dubas is not above critiscism for trades and signings he makes and that includes trading a 1st round pick in order to get rid Marleau. At least among other people on here you recognize how it wasn't Dubas who originally signed him.

everybody knows Dubas didn't sign him and by the way you defend every move Dubas makes you either feel he is above having his performance evaluated or you believe he's the only perfect GM in the history of the sport

and every GM inherits bad contracts/players , it;s how you deal with them that separates the competent form the incompetent GM's

LL was left Robidas/Lupul and especially Phaneuf's contract which the genius Dubas couldn't move and he dumped them all pain free .

He left Dubas great deals for Rielly/Kadri/Andy and 1m to much for Z and a year too long for Marleau and because the Dube supporters need to pimp his every move they're trying to spin how it was a miracle he could dump a whole 1 year of Marleu for only a 1st , lol .

also had Dubas not overpaid Tavares/Mathews/Marmer/Nylander he'd have more than enough cap space to shore up the D and backup goalie position

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I realize he had to make a trade as a result of someone else’s action. I don’t agree that he should be above criticism because he had ‘no choice’. I don’t believe that’s an ‘illogical’ view.

Let me ask you this then. What would you have done if you were Dubas (in regards to the Marleau dilemma)?

 

[yubbers]

Dubas still deserves the benefit of the doubt and starting next season with Keefe as the coach, since that's who he wanted and who knows what their record would be if Babcock never started this season with them.

Plus do you think MLSE will want to keep paying Dubas if they fire him since they are still paying Babcock and his $6.25 million contract.

So we get to burn another year before we figure out Dubas was the wrong call? So now we have Auston for 3 years. Hurray! Why do i keep watching this inept organization? With all your money you manage to find the least f***ing competent management teams. EVERY f***IN TIME.

Hey guys...check this. I know we committed to Babs for 7 years, but let's bring in the youngest GM ever that thinks the game completely differently to be his boss. What could go wrong?

 

[yubbers]

Let me ask you this then. What would you have done if you were Dubas (in regards to the Marleau dilemma)?

let him play the year and stay away from the Barrie deal. Trade AJ. done.

 

[Gabriel426]

Andersen was 91,4%, 91,9%, 91,8%, 91,8%, 91,7% the last 5 seasons before this one

He is 90,9% this season. A breakout season???

You are assuming the season ends today. I am stating what if Andersen continues to play like he has been playing the last 5-6games for the rest of the season.
Are you telling me the Andersen’s performance for the last 5-6games is just a little below his normal productions?

 

[LeafingTheWay]

let him play the year and stay away from the Barrie deal. Trade AJ. done.

Why would you want to keep a late 1st rounder instead of AJ?

 

[ACC1224]

Let me ask you this then. What would you have done if you were Dubas (in regards to the Marleau dilemma)?

Would have preferred he use Johnsson instead of the 1st to move him.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Would have preferred he use Johnsson instead of the 1st to move him.

I guess that's where the people debating with you disagree.

- We value Johnsson more than a late 1st rounder (I.e around the 22nd pick).
- We don't think Marleau drives possession nor is he a good top-9 LW anymore.

Edit:
Just to add to this: This was in the summer, before the bets on Engvall and Mikheyev being legitmate middle-6 wingers paid off. Now that we know for a fact we have Hyman, Engvall, Mikheyev at LW, I'm open to moving Johnsson.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Hey guys...check this. I know we committed to Babs for 7 years, but let's bring in the youngest GM ever that thinks the game completely differently to be his boss. What could go wrong?

Let's remember before Dubas took over some of Lou Lamoriello horrible moves. Signing Patrick Marleau to a 3 year contract of $6.25 million when he was over 35 years old, giving Nikita Zaitsev a 7 year extension after playing 1 year in the NHL and trading for Tomas Plekanec.

 

[ACC1224]

I guess that's where the people debating with you disagree.

- We value Johnsson more than a late 1st rounder (I.e around the 22nd pick).
- We don't think Marleau drives possession nor is he a good top-9 LW anymore.

Then Carolina throws a pick back to balance it off or replace Johnsson with a player valued closer to 22 if you can think of one.
Didn’t seem to me like Johnsson was even missed while out. Decent enough player but certainly nothing special.
I’m sure there were many other ways to have gotten rid of Marleau and retain the pick. Johnsson is just an example

** I don’t think anyone wanted Marleau to stay.

 

[LeafsNation75]

everybody knows Dubas didn't sign him and by the way you defend every move Dubas makes you either feel he is above having his performance evaluated or you believe he's the only perfect GM in the history of the sport

and every GM inherits bad contracts/players , it;s how you deal with them that separates the competent form the incompetent GM's

LL was left Robidas/Lupul and especially Phaneuf's contract which the genius Dubas couldn't move and he dumped them all pain free .

He left Dubas great deals for Rielly/Kadri/Andy and 1m to much for Z and a year too long for Marleau and because the Dube supporters need to pimp his every move they're trying to spin how it was a miracle he could dump a whole 1 year of Marleu for only a 1st , lol .

also had Dubas not overpaid Tavares/Mathews/Marmer/Nylander he'd have more than enough cap space to shore up the D and backup goalie position

I have said Lou did some good things like trading Dion Phaneuf without having to retain any of his salary.

As for the contract extensions he gave Rielly and Kadri it's not like they had any negotiating power to demand more money based on their seasons at the time, the way Marner was coming off a 94 point season in the last year of his ELC.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Then Carolina throws a pick back to balance it off or replace Johnsson with a player valued closer to 22 if you can think of one.
Didn’t seem to me like Johnsson was even missed while out. Decent enough player but certainly nothing special.
I’m sure there were many other ways to have gotten rid of Marleau and retain the pick. Johnsson is just an example

I added to my last post but here: Remember that we only had Hyman and Marleau at LW at that time. That's terrible depth. The bet on Engvall and Mikheyev has paid off huge, so I'm open to moving Johnsson as well. It would have looked real bad if we moved Johnsson and had only Marleau confirmed at LW (Hyman was injured for the first month of the season).

Also, I really doubt Carolina wanted another winger. They're stacked with wingers and defensemen.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Then Carolina throws a pick back to balance it off or replace Johnsson with a player valued closer to 22 if you can think of one.
Didn’t seem to me like Johnsson was even missed while out. Decent enough player but certainly nothing special.
I’m sure there were many other ways to have gotten rid of Marleau and retain the pick. Johnsson is just an example

** I don’t think anyone wanted Marleau to stay.

It's also easy to say after the fact and with hindsight based on Johnsson season so far that Dubas should have traded him instead of their 1st round pick.