Idaho Steelheads (ECHL) Discussion

[piqued]

The ECHL is absolutely not the best place for him. The AHL is a developmental league. It's time to see what we have with our prospects. They either sink or swim, play well or not play well, but they need to play, at the AHL level, on our AHL team.

There's plenty of room and there's plenty of ice time if there was a will and an actual vision focused on development rather than counter-productively scrambling around for a few extra AHL wins that at the end of the day mean nothing. The Stars have shot themselves in the foot yet again by loading their team up with useless veterans and go-nowhere grinders who aren't going to help anyone develop.

I'm looking at both of these teams right now and quite frankly I'm more interested in Idaho. Something seriously wrong with that.

 

[k1279]

I wouldn't say A. Smith is one of our better prospects. He is turning 24 in a couple weeks and at that age he should be miles ahead of the 19-20 year olds but he isn't.

Solid guy, but I don't think he will ever make the NHL full time.

Agree. I'd love to see him make it,being from Dallas but the reality is he's not one of the top prospects for the Stars. I'm betting he ends up in Europe some day, say Germany or something like that.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Agree. I'd love to see him make it,being from Dallas but the reality is he's not one of the top prospects for the Stars. I'm betting he ends up in Europe some day, say Germany or something like that.

In talking to Austin in the past, he was very serious about getting his degree (I think he was a double major?) from Colgate and I'm not sure if he'd be willing to chase hockey around like that. I could be way, way off, but he sounded very sincere in pursuit of graduating from Colgate. He's very proud of the education he got there, so I'm assuming he plans to use it. But I'm doing just that, assuming...

 

[BigG44]

The ECHL is absolutely not the best place for him. The AHL is a developmental league. It's time to see what we have with our prospects. They either sink or swim, play well or not play well, but they need to play, at the AHL level, on our AHL team.

There's plenty of room and there's plenty of ice time if there was a will and an actual vision focused on development rather than counter-productively scrambling around for a few extra AHL wins that at the end of the day mean nothing. The Stars have shot themselves in the foot yet again by loading their team up with useless veterans and go-nowhere grinders who aren't going to help anyone develop.

I'm looking at both of these teams right now and quite frankly I'm more interested in Idaho. Something seriously wrong with that.

Every time you don't agree with the Stars you go way off the deep end. There's got to be a middle ground in you somewhere right?



Because two guys you like didn't make Texas' roster enjoy the Steelheads more over actual top NHL prospects in Chiasson, R. Smith, Eakin, etc. I don't buy it.

Can we all agree 100 Degree Hockey reports on the Texas Stars in a pretty balanced way? I know he works with DBD, but he comes off as a balanced guy that doesn't play favorites. He's pretty similar to Mark Stepneski (on a much smaller scale) IMO. Nearly everything he puts out is pretty straight forward and not nearly as emotional as we all on here tend to get about our favorite prospects.

http://hundreddegreehockey.blogspot.com/2012/10/texas-stars-solidify-opening-roster.html

At times, I believe Vause looked better on the ice than Dallas-contracted players like Austin Smith. Both played four years of hockey before this, but Vause played in the WHL and Smith in the ECAC of the NCAA. Smith has commented that he is working on learning systems more because his role on the Colgate Raiders allowed him to "go wherever he wanted" on the ice. Perhaps the WHL's more structured style allowed Vause to make a smoother transition to the professional game.

There is no doubt that there are hints of a spark in Smith's game, but it seems that learning the defensive side might be holding back his offense a bit overall. However, comparing the two alternatives, playing defense and not scoring goals or concentrating on offense and getting a nasty plus-minus, you're sure to get farther with Coach Desjardins and Scott White doing the former, not the latter.

He mentioned another time that Austin Smith didn't have the best camp. It's not that shocking Smith hasn't stuck in the AHL yet. Being a top prospect or prospect at all (I admit I don't consider him in the same league as Eakin, Reilly, Chiasson, etc.) shouldn't guarantee you ice time. He needs to earn it. Unless Cin went to a scrimmage and I missed it, 100 degree is the only one that saw the pre-season games and scrimmages. He didn't come away impressed, and it's not surprising the coaches opted for other players. If profile earned you ice time, Glennie wouldn't rightfully be eating healthy scratches after reporting out of shape.

 

[Steelhead16]

The ECHL is absolutely not the best place for him. The AHL is a developmental league. It's time to see what we have with our prospects. They either sink or swim, play well or not play well, but they need to play, at the AHL level, on our AHL team.

There's plenty of room and there's plenty of ice time if there was a will and an actual vision focused on development rather than counter-productively scrambling around for a few extra AHL wins that at the end of the day mean nothing. The Stars have shot themselves in the foot yet again by loading their team up with useless veterans and go-nowhere grinders who aren't going to help anyone develop.

I'm looking at both of these teams right now and quite frankly I'm more interested in Idaho. Something seriously wrong with that.

With the trickle down of the lockout the talent level of the AHL and ECHL this year is much greater than in the past. When the lockout ends and the flow goes back the other direction the ECHL will be a scrap heap full of guys who aren't playing at all right now and the AHL will look more like a developmental league again. You can't really judge anything right now. Just enjoy the fact that you can watch hockey of any kind right now.

 

[piqued]

Yeah, let's determine where our prospects play by AHL training camp. Give me a break.

Vause? I like his story and all and I'd prefer he play over some of the other worthless spares on Texas' roster but he's been making plenty of defensive and positioning mistakes of his own. Meanwhile A. Smith gets a single game, in which he looked pretty damn good IMO, and then apparently it's determined that he needs to go to Idaho.

A. Smith is not even remotely one of my "favorite" prospects, btw.

 

[FrailSwan]

I can't help but agree with piqued on this. I just don't think he got his fair shot before getting thrown down to the ECHL.

And he's not my favorite prospect either. My priorities are to Chiasson, Faksa, R. Smith, and Oleksiak.

 

[LT]

I don't think it's a problem unless its permanent. Once Eakin, Vincour, maybe R. Smith/Chiasson/Fraser are in the NHL, he'll have a much better spot than on the 4th line with an occasional call-up.

He's older than Jamie Benn ffs. I get that every player is different, but if he's not looking like a legit prospect by now, he's probably not going anywhere. And the whole "veterans are playing over him" is only a half-truth, just like saying "Benn played with Ott and Burish". Yes, it's true, but not to what some people make it out to be.

And regardless, isn't there some rule that says we can only have so many players with less than ~300 games or something? Any idea if that factored into it?

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

And regardless, isn't there some rule that says we can only have so many players with less than ~300 games or something? Any idea if that factored into it?

He would not of even been able to be on the opening day roster if that had anything to do with it.

 

[BigG44]

Yeah, let's determine where our prospects play by AHL training camp. Give me a break.

Vause? I like his story and all and I'd prefer he play over some of the other worthless spares on Texas' roster but he's been making plenty of defensive and positioning mistakes of his own. Meanwhile A. Smith gets a single game, in which he looked pretty damn good IMO, and then apparently it's determined that he needs to go to Idaho.

A. Smith is not even remotely one of my "favorite" prospects, btw.

Why would you not want ice time to be based on performance? One of my biggest issues with the Stars has always been the sense of entitlement the veterans have had in the past. Why would you ever want to build that into the prospects as well?

Chiasson and R. Smith aren't playing prime minutes because they are 2nd and 3rd round picks. You can clearly see they are performing at a high level right now. They've earned their roles. Developing a player, IMO, is about teaching them to be pros and part of that is earning your ice time and learning to be consistent from one game to the next.

Regarding Vause, he's played well for Texas in limited showings. He's 21 years old, and Texas has had a knack for identifying talent that in some cases eventually benefits the Dallas Stars. I don't agree you can just paint every undrafted free agent with the same brush that they are scrubs just because Dallas didn't draft and/or sign them.

No one is complaining about Hedden right now getting ice time (at least not that I've seen) because he's another guy that Scott White found who has been an above average player for the Texas Stars. White and Dallas’ WHL scouts both have solid records so I am thrilled to see how Vause can adjust to the AHL and (although a rather small chance) the NHL. He’s earned his chances with Texas so I look forward to see what he does with it.

I've seen several valid complaints about how Willie is running the team right now, and it's obviously not my place to deem the Austin Smith situation an acceptable complaint. I just really feel his playing time doesn't fit with that discussion, and I wanted to offer an alternative view of the situation.

I really am happy to see him go to the ECHL, and I was honestly surprised you think it's not that good of a league for him. He just won't ever be more than a third liner in Texas during the lockout. When I was listing good young prospects ahead of him yesterday, I failed to remember Sceviour who could be back in two weeks. The guy is just unfortunately buried behind several key prospects. A healthy dose of ES and PP time sounds perfect for Smtih IMO versus 3rd or 4th line minutes in Texas.

And regardless, isn't there some rule that says we can only have so many players with less than ~300 games or something? Any idea if that factored into it?

I think you're confusing the veteran rule. Piqued is right the primary goal of the AHL is a development league so you can only have a limited number of veterans. You could ice an entire team of rookie pros straight out of college or the CHL if you wanted with no issue.

 

[Steelhead16]

Yeah, let's determine where our prospects play by AHL training camp. Give me a break.

Vause? I like his story and all and I'd prefer he play over some of the other worthless spares on Texas' roster but he's been making plenty of defensive and positioning mistakes of his own. Meanwhile A. Smith gets a single game, in which he looked pretty damn good IMO, and then apparently it's determined that he needs to go to Idaho.

A. Smith is not even remotely one of my "favorite" prospects, btw.

Maybe it's just a confidence move. Maybe going to a league where he can put up numbers will give the kid the confidence to know he can succeed at the pro level. Especially this year when half the ECHL and probably evey goalie he will face has AHL caliber talent. Coaching at the High School level, I have sent kids with more talent than a lot of my Varsity kids down to JV for a while just to get rid of that second of hesitation that they had in making decisions that was holding them back.
I don't know anything behind the scenes there, just a thought.

 

[piqued]

Why would you not want ice time to be based on performance? One of my biggest issues with the Stars has always been the sense of entitlement the veterans have had in the past. Why would you ever want to build that into the prospects as well?

I want ice time to be based on performance... in actual hockey games that count.

Chiasson and R. Smith aren't playing prime minutes because they are 2nd and 3rd round picks. You can clearly see they are performing at a high level right now. They've earned their roles.

Chiasson is not playing at a high level. And if draft position had nothing to do with who was on the roster and it was all about merit in training camp then Glennie should be in Idaho by now, should he not?

Regarding Vause, he's played well for Texas in limited showings. He's 21 years old, and Texas has had a knack for identifying talent that in some cases eventually benefits the Dallas Stars. I don't agree you can just paint every undrafted free agent with the same brush that they are scrubs just because Dallas didn't draft and/or sign them.

I didn't... I pretty clearly singled Vause out as not being a scrub.

No one is complaining about Hedden right now getting ice time (at least not that I've seen) because he's another guy that Scott White found who has been an above average player for the Texas Stars.

I'm complaining about Hedden.

I really am happy to see him go to the ECHL, and I was honestly surprised you think it's not that good of a league for him. He just won't ever be more than a third liner in Texas during the lockout.

I don't see what's wrong with 3rd line AHL minutes.

 

[BigG44]

The last few we just have different opinions so I'll leave it at that, but the one thing I did want to ask is what is training camp for in your opinion?

If it isn’t for earning ice time and a role on the team, what is it for? Training camp allowed Jamie Benn to establish himself over Fabian Brunnstrom rather than Benn going to the AHL. James Neal won a role with the Dallas Stars because of a strong camp despite a rather average rookie AHL season (though he did have a strong finish). I think it’s safe to say you can guarantee Brenden Dillon doesn’t make the Dallas Stars if he doesn’t consistently impress in pre-season before the season starts. Those games matter … especially for rookies … and I don’t agree that a poor performance in the pre-season should allow you a free pass in the early part of the regular season.

Regarding Glennie, he isn’t getting a free pass, and he’s being punished appropriately. I don’t think the initial reaction to Glennie should be demoting him. He was very good in the 2nd half of the AHL season. Unlike Austin Smith, he has established himself in the AHL. If he returns from this punishment and doesn’t perform at the level he should, I don’t doubt for one second they’ll send him to the ECHL. Doing it now would be an overreaction IMO.

 

[piqued]

NHL camp is not AHL camp.

Dallas prospects should get preferential treatment, quite frankly, within reason. The organization has already spent assets to acquire them and has a vested interest in their development. For these players AHL camp is mainly about installing systems and understanding what their coach wants. Yeah there's competition, but it's around the margins, for whatever spots are left over for the non-Dallas players.

What is even the point of having an AHL team if you don't run it that way? Otherwise you could just send scouts to watch all these fringe players and sign the ones you think have played the best.

 

[BigG44]

That's a fair point, but I do like the way Texas has scouted and developed non-Dallas prospects. I don't think it's been detrimental to any of Dallas' prospects so I guess we just don't agree on this aspect of the team.

Plus it should be noted that yes Dallas does seem to have a very good relationship with the Texas Stars, but they do not "have" an AHL team. They are merely affiliated with them, and this relationship seems to be a very solid one. I think you're going to run into the exact same situation with other AHL teams.

Most aren't out right owned by their NHL partner, and they have a responsibility to their fan base to ice a competitive team. I don't see how that is a problem though. To me, that just forces your prospects to perform if they want ice time. That's life as a professional hockey player.

One last thing that occurs to me is you mentioned that the AHL is a developmental league. To me, that doesn't mean only NHL drafted or signed players. It's a developmental league for all hockey players regardless of their NHL contract status or investment from a team at the NHL level.

I guess your argument could be that if Texas won't only focus on Dallas players then Dallas should find a new affiliate, but like I already said, I don't believe there's an AHL team out there that will give 100% control to the NHL team. Dallas needs to buy the Texas Stars or another team for that to happen, but I think you'd still see several non-Dallas players contributing to that roster.

 

[piqued]

Dallas has as much control over Cedar Park as any NHL team is ever going to have over an AHL team, regardless of the ownership. It's not a matter of getting more control, it's what you do with that control.

 

[piqued]

Coyle to Idaho. No, I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Coyle to Idaho. No, I don't have a problem with it.

I think that's the last we'll be seeing of him...

 

[Frozen Failure]

I think that's the last we'll be seeing of him...

Man, I hope so. Now, Labrie on the other hand, I'm okay with seeing around.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Man, I hope so. Now, Labrie on the other hand, I'm okay with seeing around.

I've liked him for a little while now. I try to be positive about him as much as I can, because I do like his game.

 

[Frozen Failure]

I've liked him for a little while now. I try to be positive about him as much as I can, because I do like his game.

He unfortunately plays a very hard nosed Robidas style game, I like his effort level and all.

 

[Stars99Lobo37]

Austin Smith just scored to make it 5-2 Idaho.

 

[MetalGodAOD*]

3rd win in a row for Josh Robinson. Looks like Besko's losing out on the starter role in Idaho.

 

[piqued]

At least Idaho seems to know how to win.

2 more goals for A. Smith.

 

[piqued]

Labrie sent to Idaho.