How good would the Wings be with Semin and Carle?

[we like our team*]

imagine franzen but way streakier and more talented and completely useless in the playoffs

you have semin, i don't think any of you would of enjoyed watching him in the playoffs.

carle would of been ok, nothing special but wouldn't of been worth the money

people keep regurgitating this crap and think it's the truth

 

[JmanWingsFan]

imagine franzen but way streakier and more talented and completely useless in the playoffs

you have semin, i don't think any of you would of enjoyed watching him in the playoffs.

carle would of been ok, nothing special but wouldn't of been worth the money

...



Did you read any of the links we posted? All of that BS about Semin is nothing more than mythology and bad media coverage.

 

[RedMenace]

...

Did you read any of the links we posted? All of that BS about Semin is nothing more than mythology and bad media coverage.

The "attitude" issues might be BS, but I still don't think he's worth $7m for what he brings. To wit, two Wings players with similar roles vs Semin over the last 2.25 seasons:

Alexander Semin:
2010-2011 GP:65; G:28, A:26 (54p); Cap Hit: $6m
2011-2012 GP:77; G:21, A:33 (54p); Cap Hit: $6.7m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:7 (10p); Cap Hit: $7m
Totals - GP:154; G:52, A:66 (118p); Cap Spendings: $19.7m

vs

Johan Franzen:
2010-2011 GP:76; G:28, A:27 (55p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
2011-2012 GP:77; G:29, A:17 (56p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:6 (9p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
Totals - GP:165; G:60, A:50 (120p); Cap Spendings: $11.85m

Valtteri Filppula
2010-2011 GP:71; G:16, A:23 (39p); Cap Hit: $3m
2011-2012 GP:81; G:23, A:43 (66p); Cap Hit: $3m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:4 (7p); Cap Hit: $3m
Totals - GP:164; G:42, A:70 (112p); Cap Spendings: $9m

So, in summary:

Totals:
Alexander Semin - GP:154; G:52, A:66 (118p); Cap Spendings: $19.7m

vs.

Johan Franzen and Vatteri Filppula - GP:329; G:102, A:120 (222p); Cap Spendings: $20.85m

Not worth it for one forward, in my opinion; two forwards with similar production gives a lot more lineup flexibility than tying up that much money/responsibility in one guy.

 

[garry1221]

How good would we be with them? Who knows? For all we know, tey may have been among the first injured this year and we'd still be where we sit now. We don't know how either or both would mesh with this team. It says a lot when the majority here agrees both are overpaid. Frankly Semin was a last ditch hope for me last offseason. Was glad we stayed away from carle.

 

[Brick Top]

Totals:
Alexander Semin - GP:154; G:52, A:66 (118p); Cap Spendings: $19.7m

vs.

Johan Franzen and Vatteri Filppula - GP:329; G:102, A:120 (222p); Cap Spendings: $20.85m

Not worth it for one forward, in my opinion; two forwards with similar production gives a lot more lineup flexibility than tying up that much money/responsibility in one guy.

Ok, so I don't want to trigger another epic rant here (although it was pretty funny to read the other day . You even snuck in Jman's line about posters applying to be GM's, you might be tagged with a copywright infringement on that one).

What I got out of the the numbers above is that Semin out-produces Flip and Franzen combined, as Semin has over half of Mule and Franzen's combined goal and assists totals in fewer than half the number of games played.

He definitely takes up more cap space by a wide margin than either of the other 2 guys, but he also scores more than the other 2 combined (or at least did in your sample). If I had a team with a lot of cap space, I'd probably take him over our 2 guys as I'd have the superior scorer and still have another slot in the top 6 to utilize.

edit: just looked at the numbers again, and Mule did outscore Semin in each of the last 2 years head to head (Mule played 11 more games than Semin 2 seasons ago, but whatever). But adding in Flip's #'s drags the average scoring output down for the Wings in your example. Taking into account Flip's likely raise coming soon, Franzen's contract term and Semin being younger than Mule, I'd still take him next season over Flip and Mule, which would leave another top 6 spot open for another scorer.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

The "attitude" issues might be BS, but I still don't think he's worth $7m for what he brings. To wit, two Wings players with similar roles vs Semin over the last 2.25 seasons:

Alexander Semin:
2010-2011 GP:65; G:28, A:26 (54p); Cap Hit: $6m
2011-2012 GP:77; G:21, A:33 (54p); Cap Hit: $6.7m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:7 (10p); Cap Hit: $7m
Totals - GP:154; G:52, A:66 (118p); Cap Spendings: $19.7m

vs

Johan Franzen:
2010-2011 GP:76; G:28, A:27 (55p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
2011-2012 GP:77; G:29, A:17 (56p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:6 (9p); Cap Hit: $3.95m
Totals - GP:165; G:60, A:50 (120p); Cap Spendings: $11.85m

Valtteri Filppula
2010-2011 GP:71; G:16, A:23 (39p); Cap Hit: $3m
2011-2012 GP:81; G:23, A:43 (66p); Cap Hit: $3m
2012-2013 GP:12; G:3, A:4 (7p); Cap Hit: $3m
Totals - GP:164; G:42, A:70 (112p); Cap Spendings: $9m

So, in summary:

Totals:
Alexander Semin - GP:154; G:52, A:66 (118p); Cap Spendings: $19.7m

vs.

Johan Franzen and Vatteri Filppula - GP:329; G:102, A:120 (222p); Cap Spendings: $20.85m

Not worth it for one forward, in my opinion; two forwards with similar production gives a lot more lineup flexibility than tying up that much money/responsibility in one guy.

Kind of unfair to put Filppula and Franzen together against one player. It's also unfair when Semin had the unfortunate task of going up against Jaroslav Halak in 2010... In spite of leading the entire league in shots on goal in the first round, not one of them went in for Semin. Halak did the same thing to Malkin in the second round.

 

[HTT3*]

Carle has a bad contract, Ericsson has been great for us! Smith would spend another year in the AHL if Holland signed Carle.

Don't understand the Semin love. Nobody wanted him when he was a UFA. He must have locker room issues and I wonder if Datsyuk told Holland to avoid Semin.

There's a reason why nobody wanted a previous 40 goal scorer on a 1 year contract. Holland had no problem signing Hossa to a $7.5 contract, but nobody wanted Semin.

There's more going on behind the curtains than we know...

 

[RedMenace]

Ok, so I don't want to trigger another epic rant here (although it was pretty funny to read the other day . You even snuck in Jman's line about posters applying to be GM's, you might be tagged with a copywright infringement on that one).

Nah, you're not making outrageous claims like having invented the question mark, or accusing chestnuts of being lazy. Again, I've got no problem with *opinions.*

What I got out of the the numbers above is that Semin out-produces Flip and Franzen combined, as Semin has over half of Mule and Franzen's combined goal and assists totals in fewer than half the number of games played.

I think the production of both Franzen and Filppula is similar enough to Semin that having him over them isn't worth the potential cap/roster headaches; in addition to them, yeah, he'd likely be dynamite, but Brunner (who I left out of the revised numbers) is producing at a similar pace this year at 1/3 the cost and took any spot he Semin might have occupado.

He definitely takes up more cap space by a wide margin than either of the other 2 guys, but he also scores more than the other 2 combined (or at least did in your sample). If I had a team with a lot of cap space, I'd probably take him over our 2 guys as I'd have the superior scorer and still have another slot in the top 6 to utilize.

I understand what you're saying, but I'd still rather have two or three guys producing similar numbers each (he's not outscoring them by an sort of significant margin) and maintain the roster/cap flexibility. I mean, right now there are three players on the Wings (including Brunner) who can roughly match his production each at roughly the same cost total; for Illitch's money (not mine), that seems like the better deal.

Kind of unfair to put Filppula and Franzen together against one player. It's also unfair when Semin had the unfortunate task of going up against Jaroslav Halak in 2010... In spite of leading the entire league in shots on goal in the first round, not one of them went in for Semin. Halak did the same thing to Malkin in the second round.

I wasn't necessarily pitting him against both of them together, rather, simply trying to show that the two of them can both produce at a similar pace for the same amount of money combined.

Ericsson has been great for us!

And that is quite the pleasant surprise for me. I'd wanted him gone the past season and a half -- ESPECIALLY with that contract -- but the last half of last year and this year so far is turning me around. It might be a bit premature, but I love being wrong about a player's inability to be a productive member of the team.

 

[gamefan14*]

...



Did you read any of the links we posted? All of that BS about Semin is nothing more than mythology and bad media coverage.

or i watched most of his playoffs games while he was with the caps and i realize he sucks in the playoffs, but he'll never play for the wings so keep being mad

 

[PullHard]

or i watched most of his playoffs games while he was with the caps and i realize he sucks in the playoffs, but he'll never play for the wings so keep being mad

If you watched them last year, you would realize he showed up in a major way. Reminded me of Filppula and Zetterberg with the way he would backcheck and play on the defensive side of the puck. Sure, he was all offense at one point in time, but so was the entire team. It was the way they were coached when Brucey B was behind the bench. Forget it, though.

 

[RedMenace]

If you watched them last year, you would realize he showed up in a major way. Reminded me of Filppula and Zetterberg with the way he would backcheck and play on the defensive side of the puck. Sure, he was all offense at one point in time, but so was the entire team. It was the way they were coached when Brucey B was behind the bench. Forget it, though.

Yeah, watching Canes games this year shows that Semin isn't bad defensively, but he can get lazy at times like Franzen.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Yeah, watching Canes games this year shows that Semin isn't bad defensively, but he can get lazy at times like Franzen.

Which I'm fine with. If lazey franzen has 9 points in 12 games... Lazy Semin with 11 points in 12 games is even better.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Carle has a bad contract, Ericsson has been great for us! Smith would spend another year in the AHL if Holland signed Carle.

Don't understand the Semin love. Nobody wanted him when he was a UFA. He must have locker room issues and I wonder if Datsyuk told Holland to avoid Semin.

There's a reason why nobody wanted a previous 40 goal scorer on a 1 year contract. Holland had no problem signing Hossa to a $7.5 contract, but nobody wanted Semin.

There's more going on behind the curtains than we know...

Jason Arnott seemed to think otherwise that he was a lockerroom cancer. Probably the opposite, he was the victim.

 

[Brick Top]

Nah, you're not making outrageous claims like having invented the question mark, or accusing chestnuts of being lazy. Again, I've got no problem with *opinions.*

I made my kids leave the room before I started reading your response, didn't want them to see their old man break down in tears

I think the production of both Franzen and Filppula is similar enough to Semin that having him over them isn't worth the potential cap/roster headaches; in addition to them, yeah, he'd likely be dynamite, but Brunner (who I left out of the revised numbers) is producing at a similar pace this year at 1/3 the cost and took any spot he Semin might have occupado.

I understand what you're saying, but I'd still rather have two or three guys producing similar numbers each (he's not outscoring them by an sort of significant margin) and maintain the roster/cap flexibility. I mean, right now there are three players on the Wings (including Brunner) who can roughly match his production each at roughly the same cost total; for Illitch's money (not mine), that seems like the better deal.

It's definitely a tough call for me either way. Brunner panning out so far is certainly making up for not signing a premier scorer. I still don't like Franzen's term and think he'll be unproductive sooner rather than later, so I do hope that KH works on bringing in a younger scorer via trade or UFA (open the vault for Horton if the B's don't re-sign him). I'm also hoping that last season wasn't just Flip overachieving offensively, but I kinda think it was.

 

[tfong]

Semin is so underrated defensively its scary. I have a friend that is a canes fan that can attest to this as well. The guy is much more well rounded than people think so I certainly think we missed out on a deal.

 

[HTT3*]

Jason Arnott seemed to think otherwise that he was a lockerroom cancer. Probably the opposite, he was the victim.

Not buying it. Nobody in the NHL wanted him. Everybody wants a young 30-40 goal scorer on a one year contract, but nobody wanted him. That's enough to make you go Mhmmmm....

What do they know that we don't? Probably everything.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

I wish we would've taken the flier on Semin for a year. Not only would he have been a huge boost to the top-six but our dreadful PP could use him too. Oh well.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Semin is so underrated defensively its scary. I have a friend that is a canes fan that can attest to this as well. The guy is much more well rounded than people think so I certainly think we missed out on a deal.

He's comprable if not better than Filppula defensively. Then again 90% of people on this site dont watch anything but Wings games and never played hockey so its probably lost on them

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Not buying it. Nobody in the NHL wanted him. Everybody wants a young 30-40 goal scorer on a one year contract, but nobody wanted him. That's enough to make you go Mhmmmm....

What do they know that we don't? Probably everything.

Washington wanted him back...

 

[Vladdy84]

He's better than Filppula defensively.

That's not saying much. Flip has been so damn invisible this year for the most part. Semin's awesome. Have wanted him on the Wings ever since last trade deadline.

 

[ricky0034]

Not buying it. Nobody in the NHL wanted him. Everybody wants a young 30-40 goal scorer on a one year contract, but nobody wanted him. That's enough to make you go Mhmmmm....

What do they know that we don't? Probably everything.

if nobody wanted him he wouldn't have gotten $7 million

maybe nobody wanted him for big money long term but it's pretty clear that he was wanted

 

[Chevrier]

Washington wanted him back...

No, they didn't. They outright said that they weren't going to resign him when he was inquiring about. They vehemently said they weren't interested in bringing him back. He was the premier casualty of that resigning period. He wasn't signed until the 26th or 27th of July. Other top players were signed early, as were many second and third tier players. As for not watching other games aside from the Red Wings and not playing hockey? I can't speak on behalf of others but I'm sure many here have played some level of hockey before and have seen plenty of games that aren't the Wings.

The argument isn't if Semin is bad defensively or what not, his skill and game were never in question. If they were being nitpicked, realistically there's nobody who wouldn't want Semin on the team for his skill. He wanted big bucks and for whatever reason we didn't think he was worth it. I'm sure it wasn't only us and the Hurricanes who inquired about his services. Many other teams passed on him with the same amount of available cap space.

Semin was pretty good defensively during Dale Hunter's run in the playoffs. The entire team's dynamic changed entirely though. I haven't seen such a system change from top to bottom as I have seen in Washington going from Boudreau to Hunter. It's safe to say both of those coaches are gone for both the Caps n' Semin with the Canes.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

No, they didn't. They outright said that they weren't going to resign him when he was inquiring about. They vehemently said they weren't interested in bringing him back. He was the premier casualty of that resigning period. He wasn't signed until the 26th or 27th of July. Other top players were signed early, as were many second and third tier players. As for not watching other games aside from the Red Wings and not playing hockey? I can't speak on behalf of others but I'm sure many here have played some level of hockey before and have seen plenty of games that aren't the Wings.

The argument isn't if Semin is bad defensively or what not, his skill and game were never in question. If they were being nitpicked, realistically there's nobody who wouldn't want Semin on the team for his skill. He wanted big bucks and for whatever reason we didn't think he was worth it. I'm sure it wasn't only us and the Hurricanes who inquired about his services. Many other teams passed on him with the same amount of available cap space.

Semin was pretty good defensively during Dale Hunter's run in the playoffs. The entire team's dynamic changed entirely though. I haven't seen such a system change from top to bottom as I have seen in Washington going from Boudreau to Hunter. It's safe to say both of those coaches are gone for both the Caps n' Semin with the Canes.

They tried numerous times to get him to sign an extension. http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/7...n-capitals-alexander-semin-headed-free-agency

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

That's not saying much. Flip has been so damn invisible this year for the most part. Semin's awesome. Have wanted him on the Wings ever since last trade deadline.

I know, but given how massively Filppula is overrated by most posters, I just thought I'd make the comparison.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

No, they didn't. They outright said that they weren't going to resign him when he was inquiring about. They vehemently said they weren't interested in bringing him back. He was the premier casualty of that resigning period. He wasn't signed until the 26th or 27th of July. Other top players were signed early, as were many second and third tier players. As for not watching other games aside from the Red Wings and not playing hockey? I can't speak on behalf of others but I'm sure many here have played some level of hockey before and have seen plenty of games that aren't the Wings.

The argument isn't if Semin is bad defensively or what not, his skill and game were never in question. If they were being nitpicked, realistically there's nobody who wouldn't want Semin on the team for his skill. He wanted big bucks and for whatever reason we didn't think he was worth it. I'm sure it wasn't only us and the Hurricanes who inquired about his services. Many other teams passed on him with the same amount of available cap space.

Semin was pretty good defensively during Dale Hunter's run in the playoffs. The entire team's dynamic changed entirely though. I haven't seen such a system change from top to bottom as I have seen in Washington going from Boudreau to Hunter. It's safe to say both of those coaches are gone for both the Caps n' Semin with the Canes.

Uh... It was the other way around. Washington had interest in resigning him, but Semin outright ruled Washington out, stating he wanted more responsibilities that the team for whatever reason wouldn't give him.