How good would the Wings be with Semin and Carle?

[Laser Rayzor]

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.

Not sure how credible this source is but I saw this tweet on the RW feed

hmm RT @Gally__17: When you call your agent, and he's in the middle of a contract negotation with Jimmy Howard #RedWings

 

[BeerLeagueAllStar]

Semin's deal is he can be great offensively, is underrated defensively and shows all sorts of insane skill

In my opinion, that's all that should matter right there. The bottom line is that he would make this team better; he's an elite puck possession player, a good playmaker, has speed, decent size, and an elite RH shot. Put him on Datsyuk's wing and he'd score 35, maybe more.

Instead, we signed a merely average offensive player and a below average defensive player in Samuelsson, who as it turns out is an injury risk at 36 years old.

For every jab at Semin's character that you hear from the media, you can find praise for his work ethic from teammates. Furthermore, nobody complains about character when the team is winning. His on-ice performance is worth the risk, especially when the price is only a ONE YEAR DEAL.

It should be obvious to anyone who knows hockey that Semin is a much more valuable asset than Samuelsson. We had the cap space, so if perceived character issues were all that prevented Holland from going after Semin, well, that's just ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not sure how credible this source is but I saw this tweet on the RW feed

Surprised that is still up, kid plays Major Junior, guessing the agent won't be happy with that share.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

There also seems to be this feeling out there that these guys really wanted him, in particular Datsyuk. Semin stayed unsigned for a long repeat LONG time period. Maybe he didn't tell Holland to go get him either or his review wasn't great behind closed doors.

I personally wanted them to sign Semin, and was really angry when he just did the one year deal. I would still offer him a 3 year 5 million per contract this offseason and trim fat off the payroll to make it possible. But it could be Datsyuk knows through Ovie and the other Russians that while they all like Semin, having him on your own team for 82 games instead of just a two week tournament is kind of a pain.

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.

Um, I believe it was the exact opposite.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

Um, I believe it was the exact opposite.

Source?

Semin is the kind of player that would thrive under a team with great leadership and elite talent. I don't believe Semin is the kind of player you can build a line around but I think he is the perfect complementary sniper, especially for a guy like Pavs. I think we really missed out on giving our top-six a new identity with a sniper like Semin. Sure, Brunner has been awesome but it would be even more awesome if we had a right-handed sniper for both D and Z.

Honestly I always wanted KH to sign Semin, but I wasn't as crazy about it earlier as I thought Gus would replace Huds. Now since Gus is stuck in GR I really really wish we wouldve given Semin a try.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Um, I believe it was the exact opposite.

I think I worded that poorly. What I was getting at is as fans around here kept saying he wants Semin, we never really got Pavel's position.

Datsyuk has wanted a Russian for a while, with jokes and other comments. But I find it interesting that we never heard a report of him going to bat for Semin. He was out there for a long time, you don't think Kenny picks up the phone if Datsyuk calls?

He says nice things about him at the World Championships, but did Datsyuk go to bat for an 82 game season and maybe additional years? After all this feeling that Semin wanted to be with at least one Russian, why did he end up in Carolina? There are a lot of questions here and it seems the market was pretty cool for a reason and all these big Russian players didn't seem all that interested in really getting in his corner.

For the record I was okay with giving him a three year deal in the 15-18 million region. I am not against it, much of the Semin hate is largely unfounded when I watch him play. But having watched his free agency play out, I thought it might go different from a Russian help point of view. Those guys several of them with clout on their teams didn't seem to fully endorse the idea, at least not like I thought they would.

 

[Henkka]

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.

At next summer:

Hi, Kenny here. What would you like if I double yor salary from 2.25 to 4.5 million, a four year deal?

Jimmy Howard: "That's great. Where do I sign?"

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like if I double your salary from 1.35 mil to 2.7 million, a three-year deal?"

Damien Brunner: "That's great. Where do I sign?"

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like, if I give you a 50% raise from 3 million to 4.5 million, a five-year-deal?"

Valtteri Filppula: "That's great. Where do I sign?"

***

Three years ago (at summer 2009)...

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like, if I double your salary from 1 million to 2 million, three year deal?"

Jiri Hudler: "No I don't think so, I'll go to abritrator."

Arbitrator gives him 2.875 figure.

Ken Holland: "Okay, now we have a deal. It's harsh, but we'll take it."

Jiri Hudler: "Sorry but I'm going to bolt to Russia, they are offering me 5 freaking millions per year. I'm really sorry about this."

Ken Holland: "I understand. You do what's best for you (you greedy little son of a *****...)."

Jiri Hudler: "Thanks Kenny."

***

One year after (summer of 2010) Hudler comes back, because Dynamo Moscow has some financial troubles.

At summer of 2011...

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like, if I over trible your salary from 900k to 3.25 million, a three year deal?"

Jonathan Ericsson: "That's great. Where do I sign?"

***

At summer of 2012...

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like, if I double your salary from 900k to 2.2 million, a four year deal?"

Darren Helm: "That's great. Where do I sign?"

Hudler has also played for two seasons and his contract ends.

"Hi, Kenny here. What would you like if I give you a 20% raise for your current salary, a three-year deal? 20% only, because the arbitrator gave a little bit too high figure in my mind on that day but we lived with that then. You got also those extra 5 million tax free from Russia, so you shouldn't be hoarding so much after money, your life is pretty much secured already, isn't it?"

Jiri Hudler: "No, I think I'm going to hit the free agency. Sorry again."

Ken Holland: *shuts the phone*

 

[tfong]

Having those two would be a difference of 3-4 spots up Imo.

Some nights we are seriously missing secondary firepower.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Here is an article i found:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2012/7/7/3142627/refutation-of-stupid-semin-arguments#107578090

basically stating Semin does not (statistically) show any problems people have accused him of.

I really wanted Semin. If he has a great year we keep him, if not he walks.

Same. Lold so hard when people who clearly never watched him bashed him. Dude is comprable to Filppupa defensivily and probably has a better lane stick.

Even with his past two off seasons dude has more Goals per game past 5 seasons than Nash and Parise, generally playing second line minutes.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Source?

Semin is the kind of player that would thrive under a team with great leadership and elite talent. I don't believe Semin is the kind of player you can build a line around but I think he is the perfect complementary sniper, especially for a guy like Pavs. I think we really missed out on giving our top-six a new identity with a sniper like Semin. Sure, Brunner has been awesome but it would be even more awesome if we had a right-handed sniper for both D and Z.

Honestly I always wanted KH to sign Semin, but I wasn't as crazy about it earlier as I thought Gus would replace Huds. Now since Gus is stuck in GR I really really wish we wouldve given Semin a try.

I'll have to dig stuff up, but Ansar Khan wrote some pieces about it. He didn't have a high opinion on Semin, and reportedly neither did the players management consulted about him. Management wasn't sold on Semin either.

 

[Brick Top]

Henkka- seems like these are elaborate conversations you conjured up between players and KH to make Hudler look like a bad guy. Kinda weird to bring Hudler into a thread about Semin and Carle, and quoting a post speculating about the Wings extending current players, but whatever.

Couple of things about your post:
- you forgot to mention Ericsson and his agent both passing out at the offer from KH, as he had done nothing to that point in his career to warrant the deal he got (he's playing up to it this season so far, but that was a deal based solely on potential for an experienced vet).

- Hudler was within his rights to go to arbitration- can't fault a guy for utilizing something that has been collectively bargained

- Huds didn't receive any kind of NTC, so Kenny could have moved him if he was truly that fed up with the guy

- Loyalty is overrated in pro sports, as fans want to think that players are as loyal to their team as they are (that's just not reality in the vast majority of cases). And the way that Babs would yo-yo Huds up and down the lineup, having him on a far shorter leash than anyone else on the team... I don't see why Jiri would feel he owed the Wings any favors on a contract.

- there isn't a player in any league who would take a lower contract offer from a GM just b/c the GM tells the player that he was over-awarded by an arbitrator and/or made a lot of $$ on a previous contract. I can't imagine that a GM can really use the "hey, you've clearly already made enough $$ in your career, so take less from me now on your next deal." And if a GM was going to use that tactic, you can't really do that on a mid-level player, right? It's not like Hudler was coming off of a deal like Suter's with the Wild.

 

[Brick Top]

Back on topic- I like the idea of letting the season continue to play out a while before extending any of those guys. I think Flip is the easiest candidate to sign the soonest of the 3, as you kinda know he's a good complementary winger but not elite at anything, so you slot him accordingly.

I think the Wings are catching a break by having Brunner start his career in a shortened season, as they can use the "small sample size" argument to keep his $$ amount lower. I think the Nose would have more leverage after completing a normal 82 game season instead of the shortened one. I don't think he'd be breaking the bank anyway, but it probably helps Kenny to catch the Nose in a short season.

 

[DRWCountryClub]

Really hope you weren't one of the people that took issue with Babcock's country mile statement on Zetterberg. Is Datsyuk better? Yes in my opinion, but much better? Not really. They score at similar rates Datsyuk .09 PPGA better in the regular seasn, while Staal scores at a better clip in the playoffs .25 PGGA difference.

For those of you that like to make the argument that Datsyuk's terrible linemates are to blame whenever something isn't happening for him. Staal would have pined for Danny Cleary for most of his career, much less some of the other guys Pavel has played with. In his peak years Staal has never had a Zetterberg or Hossa. This is the first time he actually has some decent talent around him and he is still in the middle/tail end depending on how his form stays of his prime. I think Datsyuk is better, especially in his own zone, but offensively that is a pretty tight contest.

Eric Staal is a very good player in this league still to this day. A cup champion, triple gold member that has accomplished a lot of great things, including leading the entire playoffs in scoring one season. He is lost in the shuffle in Carolina, but this isn't Rick Nash's phantom hype when people talk up Staal he is a dominant presence that shows up an awful lotwith consistent numbers and effort, even with little help.

Huh?

It's no disrespect to Eric Staal, he's a very good player, a lock for 30 goals and 40 assists, but yes, I think Datsyuk is easily a better player, but perhaps I should have been more specific, Datsyuk is a much better playmaker.

The Dan Cleary comment is a little perplexing too. You make it seem like Staal has played with scrubs his entire career. He's played with some pretty good players, and wasn't his main linemate Erik Cole, who back then was a pretty damn good player.

Datsyuk is just on another level than Staal, and always has been. Do you really think Datsyuk could get outscored by Ray Whitney 2 out of 5 years? I don't.

But Staal did.

I also don't recall the country mile comment you're referring too.

 

[Chevrier]

In my opinion, that's all that should matter right there. The bottom line is that he would make this team better; he's an elite puck possession player, a good playmaker, has speed, decent size, and an elite RH shot. Put him on Datsyuk's wing and he'd score 35, maybe more.

Instead, we signed a merely average offensive player and a below average defensive player in Samuelsson, who as it turns out is an injury risk at 36 years old.

For every jab at Semin's character that you hear from the media, you can find praise for his work ethic from teammates. Furthermore, nobody complains about character when the team is winning. His on-ice performance is worth the risk, especially when the price is only a ONE YEAR DEAL.

It should be obvious to anyone who knows hockey that Semin is a much more valuable asset than Samuelsson. We had the cap space, so if perceived character issues were all that prevented Holland from going after Semin, well, that's just ridiculous in my opinion.

Good post, I agree with most of it but there had to have been some reason why he chose the Canes and I don't necessarily think it had to with the Canes being closer than we are or anything to winning a Cup. Obviously, Semin > Samuelsson though, that's a given. I'm not going to argue Samuelsson over him by any stretch, but you know the Wings LOVE their familiarity. Wings signed Sammy early in free agency, first day I believe and you know they had to have at least inquired about Semin and whoever else was available.

Semin didn't sign til late July on a 1 yr/7 mil contract. That 7 mil would have been made him the highest paid Red Wing, which management obviously thought wasn't going to work. With all the claims in previous seasons that the Wings wouldn't sign anyone to be paid higher than Lidstrom, it would have made Semin the most expensive Wing. Talent through the roof, undeniably skilled for sure, but there have to had been reasons why he either didn't accept or chose a different team.

 

[Brick Top]

Semin didn't sign til late July on a 1 yr/7 mil contract. That 7 mil would have been made him the highest paid Red Wing, which management obviously thought wasn't going to work. With all the claims in previous seasons that the Wings wouldn't sign anyone to be paid higher than Lidstrom, it would have made Semin the most expensive Wing. Talent through the roof, undeniably skilled for sure, but there have to had been reasons why he either didn't accept or chose a different team.

This isn't necessarily directed at the Wings not signing Semin for $7m, but I really hope Detroit is moving away from the "we can't pay anyone more $$ than player X" philosophy. I just don't think that's a viable long term strategy in a salary cap league.

Players try to sign the largest deal they can get at the time of their FA period, but then market forces and cap increases in following seasons will result in other guys signing for more than them, even if those new players aren't as talented. That's just how it works.

I'm sure that team execs recognize that the highest paid guy on a team isn't automatically the best or even most valuable player- he's usually the most recent high profile signing. And if players and their agents are realistic, they see the same thing. Sign the best deal you can, then try to outperform it so you can extend it early and/or get a higher following contract.

I think it would be crazy for Detroit to walk away from an impact player who wanted to sign with the Wings but the market dictates that his deal would be more than Datysuk's... not saying this has necessarily happened, just hoping that it's a dead issue with Lidstrom retiring.

 

[Vladdy84]

Back on topic- I like the idea of letting the season continue to play out a while before extending any of those guys. I think Flip is the easiest candidate to sign the soonest of the 3, as you kinda know he's a good complementary winger but not elite at anything, so you slot him accordingly.

I think the Wings are catching a break by having Brunner start his career in a shortened season, as they can use the "small sample size" argument to keep his $$ amount lower. I think the Nose would have more leverage after completing a normal 82 game season instead of the shortened one. I don't think he'd be breaking the bank anyway, but it probably helps Kenny to catch the Nose in a short season.

Agree. But what is slot accordingly? I feel that's a 3.9 - 4.2M cap hit for Flip. Ideally 3.75-4M.

 

[Brick Top]

Agree. But what is slot accordingly? I feel that's a 3.9 - 4.2M cap hit for Flip. Ideally 3.75-4M.

Yeah, somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe up to 4.5. He's a complete player so I'd shoot to get the # lower by adding a year or two to the deal. Flip's a good offensive player but it took him 6 seasons to crack 20 goals, so I'd wait until further into this season to see if that is a new level for him, or maybe he just over-achieved last year.

 

[BinCookin]

Not signing Howard / Flip / Brunner may indeed result in them being paid lower.

Flip doesn't appear to be having the season he had last year, thus his pay bump should be lower.

If the team starts losing, Howard gets a reasonable deal (he will do worse than last season)
And if the team wins, Howard wins big. Basically delaying will make Howard look worse (even though we all know he is good) but will give Holland leverage to pay him a little less.

Brunner is playing for his contract now. It will be a small sample size so hopefully we can keep him at a reasonable number (3 mil), but if he plays amazing near the end half of the season, it could be even more.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Yeah, somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe up to 4.5. He's a complete player so I'd shoot to get the # lower by adding a year or two to the deal. Flip's a good offensive player but it took him 6 seasons to crack 20 goals, so I'd wait until further into this season to see if that is a new level for him, or maybe he just over-achieved last year.

Don't mean to sound like a hater but I'm going with this. I doubt Flip will ever be a consistant 60 point player. If he has a subpar year I don't want to give him more than 3.7, and anything more than 4.2 and he can take a hike.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Not a fan of Matt Carle, but Semin should've been an obvious target.

 

[gamefan14*]

imagine franzen but way streakier and more talented and completely useless in the playoffs

you have semin, i don't think any of you would of enjoyed watching him in the playoffs.

carle would of been ok, nothing special but wouldn't of been worth the money

 

[BeerLeagueAllStar]

Good post, I agree with most of it but there had to have been some reason why he chose the Canes and I don't necessarily think it had to with the Canes being closer than we are or anything to winning a Cup. Obviously, Semin > Samuelsson though, that's a given. I'm not going to argue Samuelsson over him by any stretch, but you know the Wings LOVE their familiarity. Wings signed Sammy early in free agency, first day I believe and you know they had to have at least inquired about Semin and whoever else was available.

Semin didn't sign til late July on a 1 yr/7 mil contract. That 7 mil would have been made him the highest paid Red Wing, which management obviously thought wasn't going to work. With all the claims in previous seasons that the Wings wouldn't sign anyone to be paid higher than Lidstrom, it would have made Semin the most expensive Wing. Talent through the roof, undeniably skilled for sure, but there have to had been reasons why he either didn't accept or chose a different team.

I think you're right about Sammy being signed because of familiarity. But that's what aggravates me; Holland is a great GM but he's too comfortable making "safe" signings like Sammy rather than taking a risk on guys like Semin.

I do see your point about the Wings not wanting to make him their highest paid player, but it's only a one year deal. If he plays up to it, I don't think we'd hear anyone complaining, and if he doesn't he's gone the next year anyway.

From the sounds of it the Wings never even made a serious offer at him. When he signed, he was the most talented player on the market by far, and we had the cap space. I think that a team dedicated to winning has to be willing to take a risk, especially with the parity in the league right now.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think I worded that poorly. What I was getting at is as fans around here kept saying he wants Semin, we never really got Pavel's position.

Datsyuk has wanted a Russian for a while, with jokes and other comments. But I find it interesting that we never heard a report of him going to bat for Semin. He was out there for a long time, you don't think Kenny picks up the phone if Datsyuk calls?

How many UFAs have you ever heard Pavel go to bat for the last 6-7 years?

He says nice things about him at the World Championships, but did Datsyuk go to bat for an 82 game season and maybe additional years? After all this feeling that Semin wanted to be with at least one Russian, why did he end up in Carolina? There are a lot of questions here and it seems the market was pretty cool for a reason and all these big Russian players didn't seem all that interested in really getting in his corner

.

More of this weirdo line of thought...

For the record I was okay with giving him a three year deal in the 15-18 million region. I am not against it, much of the Semin hate is largely unfounded when I watch him play. But having watched his free agency play out, I thought it might go different from a Russian help point of view. Those guys several of them with clout on their teams didn't seem to fully endorse the idea, at least not like I thought they would.

One year or not, $7M was too much to pay for a guy coming off the season Semin had.

 

[Chevrier]

I remember the Wings management were standing pretty pat for awhile waiting for Shane Doan to decide what exactly he was going to do; whether to leave PHX or what. While everything was idle, its possible that they just weren't interested in Semin.

 

[BeerLeagueAllStar]

This isn't necessarily directed at the Wings not signing Semin for $7m, but I really hope Detroit is moving away from the "we can't pay anyone more $$ than player X" philosophy. I just don't think that's a viable long term strategy in a salary cap league.

Players try to sign the largest deal they can get at the time of their FA period, but then market forces and cap increases in following seasons will result in other guys signing for more than them, even if those new players aren't as talented. That's just how it works.

I'm sure that team execs recognize that the highest paid guy on a team isn't automatically the best or even most valuable player- he's usually the most recent high profile signing. And if players and their agents are realistic, they see the same thing. Sign the best deal you can, then try to outperform it so you can extend it early and/or get a higher following contract.

I think it would be crazy for Detroit to walk away from an impact player who wanted to sign with the Wings but the market dictates that his deal would be more than Datysuk's... not saying this has necessarily happened, just hoping that it's a dead issue with Lidstrom retiring.

Agreed with all of this.