Blue Jays Discussion: Hoffman and Pentecost signed

[Highlander23]

^^ are you serious ? just in case i missed something, who's better, jeter or ichiro ?

 

[Highlander23]

So the top five shortstops of all time are....

Ripken, wagner, banks, yount, jeter/vizquel

Edit: you can throw Afrod in there, but i hate the guy, so...

 

[Radiohead]

^^ are you serious ? just in case i missed something, who's better, jeter or ichiro ?

Those stats are strictly from the Majors.

 

[topched]

Ripken, wagner, banks, yount, jeter/vizquel

Disagree in fairness,:

1. Ripken Jr
2. A-Rod
3. Jeter
4. Larkin
5. Ozzie

Those are of guys recently, Yount and Wagner should be added somewhere between 3-5 for sure. In fairness to Vizquel, has the GGs but nothing else really. So much for the offense defense on dimensional argument.

Jeter was steady for 2 decades offensively and defensively. Sure when you go through and look at UZR and other defensive ratings you'll see Jeter was very average my argument would be that I literally can't remember Jeters defense ever hurting the Yankees in an important moment and it never cost them anything. He was good enough to play SS on a perrenial World Series contender

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Ripken, wagner, banks, yount, jeter/vizquel

So even including Ernie Banks and Omar Vizquel....who are not even top ten shortstops all time, Jeter is still in your top five....which is what I said originally. Odd.

 

[Nasty Nazem]

ARod is the best offensive SS all-time.

 

[Highlander23]

So even including Ernie Banks and Omar Vizquel....who are not even top ten shortstops all time, Jeter is still in your top five....which is what I said originally. Odd.

I never said he wasn't one of the best, i said he was overrated, not the same thing. If you look closely, Afraud is a better SS than jeter. he is a great player, don't get me wrong, but i hate this hoopla as if we are losing the best that ever walked on earth

 

[topched]

ARod is the best offensive SS all-time.

Agreed, and a 2 time gold glover to boot who could have won a couple more had he not moved to SS so early.

IMO he revolutionized the position, being the first true power hitting SS . Opened the doors for the Tejadas , Nomars and now Tulo to stick at premium positions with that type of power.

Of course his merits in achieving everything can be questioned but I prefer to live in the moment

 

[Eyedea]

Derek Jeter's defense isn't 5x GG good, but I think he gets a lot of flak due to those awards. He's certainly not Ripken good, and maybe not average, but even at below average his bat certainly made up for it, and in his prime he could snag 20 to 30 bases to go along with it.

 

[Highlander23]

Derek Jeter's defense isn't 5x GG good, but I think he gets a lot of flak due to those awards. He's certainly not Ripken good, and maybe not average, but even at below average his bat certainly made up for it, and in his prime he could snag 20 to 30 bases to go along with it.

That's were tradition/old school and new visions collide. Old school, a SS is the best defensive player on the roster. Now, SS are more offensive-oriented

That's why the opinions differ immensely from one person to another

 

[TootooTrain]

Derek Jeter's defense isn't 5x GG good, but I think he gets a lot of flak due to those awards. He's certainly not Ripken good, and maybe not average, but even at below average his bat certainly made up for it, and in his prime he could snag 20 to 30 bases to go along with it.

I'm more impressed by his consistency at a high level and pure length of his career more than any one individual skillset. Which is something I think people get too hot under the collar about. Who's he better than, where does he rank, etc. He's just Derek Jeter. But I understand it's a forum and it's a base for discussion so continue. Just my two cents.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I never said he wasn't one of the best, i said he was overrated, not the same thing. If you look closely, Afraud is a better SS than jeter. he is a great player, don't get me wrong, but i hate this hoopla as if we are losing the best that ever walked on earth

If he's a top five shortstop of all time...who has won more world series (5) than any of the other top ten shortstops, wouldn't he be considered one of the best 'who ever walked on earth'?

He was overrated in terms of his defensive capabilities during the mid-2000's (04, 05, 06, 09, 10) when he won the gold gloves, which were completely undeserved - that speaks more to a flaw in MLB end of season awards than him. However, to say his career is somehow overrated seems inaccurate. To each their own, I suppose.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I'm more impressed by his consistency at a high level and pure length of his career more than any one individual skillset. Which is something I think people get too hot under the collar about. Who's he better than, where does he rank, etc. He's just Derek Jeter. But I understand it's a forum and it's a base for discussion so continue. Just my two cents.

This is what makes him special in my mind as well. A guy like Nomar, whom I loved growing up, was actually a better player at their respective peaks. However, he was unable to maintain that level of production for a very long time.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Disagree in fairness,:

1. Ripken Jr
2. A-Rod
3. Jeter
4. Larkin
5. Ozzie

Those are of guys recently, Yount and Wagner should be added somewhere between 3-5 for sure. In fairness to Vizquel, has the GGs but nothing else really. So much for the offense defense on dimensional argument.

Jeter was steady for 2 decades offensively and defensively. Sure when you go through and look at UZR and other defensive ratings you'll see Jeter was very average my argument would be that I literally can't remember Jeters defense ever hurting the Yankees in an important moment and it never cost them anything. He was good enough to play SS on a perrenial World Series contender

I would put Trammell ahead of Ozzie

 

[TF97]

The Royals acquired Jason Frasor for a minor league pitcher, not sure if it's been posted yet

 

[The Nemesis]

Offensively, Jeter is one of the best ever at his position. Defensively he was average at best and often pretty below average for most of his career. On balance he still works out to having an amazing career, HOF worth, and among the game's all-time elite shortstops.

My singular big issue tends to be with the frustrating mythologizing around him, which turns him from what he is (described above) to some sort of transcendent god of baseball, walking the earth to the awe of us mere mortals. The empty sort-of-tautological arguments like "Derek Jeter was good shortstop becuase he got to all the balls he was supposed to defensively. And he got to all the balls he was supposed to defensively because he was a good shortstop."

Or this idea that because Jeter wasn't committing errors left and right somehow validates his defensive prowess. Never mind the fact that the reason he never committed many errors was that his limitations prevented him from getting to balls that would really challenge the SS's defensive ability and arm.

None of this his his fault, which makes it hard to pin the hatred directly on him. But the media hype and exaggeration directly follows him around, so the hatred of that ends up linked inexorably to him.

 

[TOGuy14]

On the contrary. I believe his thought process was that it wouldn't be fair to fans to suddenly hang them up during the offseason. It's more about the fans giving him a proper send off than him getting a bunch of praise and gifts. I love getting on the yankees and their players like any other, but I believe your comments to be misguided.

What fans are actually enjoying a circle jerk for the guy who made the second most amount of money ever from baseball ($265,159,364), and used his fame to date and bang every hot actress within 5 zipcodes of NY?

He got plenty of kudos during his career, this is just arrogance and thinking you are greater than the game in general.

 

[TootooTrain]

What fans are actually enjoying a circle jerk for the guy who made the second most amount of money ever from baseball ($265,159,364), and used his fame to date and bang every hot actress within 5 zipcodes of NY?

All 3 of those statements are correct yes. And I don't see what's wrong with any of them.

 

[Highlander23]

Offensively, Jeter is one of the best ever at his position. Defensively he was average at best and often pretty below average for most of his career. On balance he still works out to having an amazing career, HOF worth, and among the game's all-time elite shortstops.

My singular big issue tends to be with the frustrating mythologizing around him, which turns him from what he is (described above) to some sort of transcendent god of baseball, walking the earth to the awe of us mere mortals. The empty sort-of-tautological arguments like "Derek Jeter was good shortstop becuase he got to all the balls he was supposed to defensively. And he got to all the balls he was supposed to defensively because he was a good shortstop."

Or this idea that because Jeter wasn't committing errors left and right somehow validates his defensive prowess. Never mind the fact that the reason he never committed many errors was that his limitations prevented him from getting to balls that would really challenge the SS's defensive ability and arm.

None of this his his fault, which makes it hard to pin the hatred directly on him. But the media hype and exaggeration directly follows him around, so the hatred of that ends up linked inexorably to him.

During the all star game, someone called jeter the micheal jordan of baseball, i was wtf, what, how, since when, huh ??

That's what ppl hate (me included) he is great, ok we get it but he is not as great as some of the mdeia pretend he is. I even suspect that even himself, think that all this **** is exagerated

 

[topched]

What fans are actually enjoying a circle jerk for the guy who made the second most amount of money ever from baseball ($265,159,364), and used his fame to date and bang every hot actress within 5 zipcodes of NY?

He got plenty of kudos during his career, this is just arrogance and thinking you are greater than the game in general.

All 3 of those statements are correct yes. And I don't see what's wrong with any of them.

What's more impressive is he did all of that under a HUGE microscope and was never involved in even the slightest bit of controversy

 

[Eyedea]

Just imagine if Mike Trout was a Yankee.

 

[topched]

Just imagine if Mike Trout was a Yankee.

This is part of it too, I mean I get some people in other cities might be upset, but assuming a majority of us are from the Toronto area... Leafs players/legends get treated the exact same way as Yankees.

Because of the size and history of the franchise the very good are labelled great and the great are labelled legendary... It's just how it works.

If you're upset about the hype train then be mad at the media not at the player. I think overhyped and overrated are 2 different things. Jeter is definitely overhyped but I don't think he's overrated

 

[canucksfan]

ARod is the best offensive SS all-time.

I think you could make a strong case for Honus Wagner. He led the league in OPS 8 times whereas ARod did it twice.

 

[The Nemesis]

During the all star game, someone called jeter the micheal jordan of baseball, i was wtf, what, how, since when, huh ??

That's what ppl hate (me included) he is great, ok we get it but he is not as great as some of the mdeia pretend he is. I even suspect that even himself, think that all this **** is exagerated

Exactly. The problematic part of "Jeter hate" is that most of us don't really hate Jeter the player. We hate Jeter the media-creation. The glittering, infallible superhuman that is the literal tangible embodiment of the "spirit of baseball" (and I use 'literal' in the correct sense here ) and everything that's right with the world. The Jeter that could cure cancer with his smile or end world hunger with one of his patented jump-throws to 1st, or wins the World Series every year with his magnetic awesomeness and all around unbeatably perfect mastery of the sport of baseball (fun fact: Those years where the Yankees weren't listed on the WS winner role call? Those were all A-Rod's fault. But they still gave Jeter a ring, he just chose not to talk about it because that's the kind of guy he is *swoon*). A large part of this has to do with the media love for fun narratives (where luck and talent are often replaced with grit and intangibles and a winning nature) and with the fact that New York demands its sporting heroes be lifted to near deification.

and it is horribly unfair to Jeter himself. The problem is that we've been fed the Jeter narrative for so long that the media and the people that buy into the craziness that the media sells us, re: Jeter have become unable to separate Jeter the Man (great baseball player) from Jeter the Almighty (unimpeachable bastion of incredibleness)

 

[Highlander23]

How about MLB ''forgetting'' to honour the death of tony gwynn and don zimmer ? real classy there !!