Gretzky/McDavid/Messier/??? Versus Lemieux/Crosby/Malkin/Francis

[edog37]

He might have done so in his first trip to the playoffs (and second year in the League) if that Ducks goal that was scored while Kesler was grabbing EDM's goalie's pad had been disallowed in the 2017 playoffs.

shoulda, coulda, woulda means nothing. Great players find a way regardless of circumstance..

 

[edog37]

Gretzky tips the balance here. Greatest player of all time.

Behind Lemieux...

 

[edog37]

Lemieux isn’t equal to Gretzky. Maybe if you use what if’s, which is the only way you can. Too bad what ifs never happened.

You are right, Lemieux was better....

Put Lemieux on the Oilers roster & he has those records plus. Put Gretzky on those Penguin teams & not even close...

 

[authentic]

Penguins group is simply better so far.

 

[North Cole]

You are right, Lemieux was better....

Put Lemieux on the Oilers roster & he has those records plus. Put Gretzky on those Penguin teams & not even close...

shoulda, coulda, woulda means nothing. Great players find a way regardless of circumstance..

Bit ironic when quoted back to back. Shoulda woulda coulda means nothing, if Lemiuex was as good he would have found a way to beat those records. You said so yourself.

In response to your reply, Malkin does have equivalents. How are you comparing the list? The odd man out is Francis...he gets paired against the "???"

Lemieux | Gretz
Crosby | McDavid
Malkin | Messier
Francis | ????

Francis is better than the players the op suggested, but there is a small margin between messier/malkin imo. If you wanted to match messier against Crosby and McDavid against malkin fine. McDavid might not have a better peak but he is currently having a better prime. Have to see how it plays out...

 

[DitchMarner]

Bit ironic when quoted back to back.

Oh, snap.

 

[ole ole]

Which means he played more games at an older age and therfore overcame the advantage that L had. If you want to know who was the best compare their 10 best years. Does not have to be 10 years in a row. Just compare Marios best 10 years to Gretzky's.

lemieux left the NHL for 3 seasons -97/98 ..98/99...99/2000 because of bad health.
Came back a broken man and played part of 5 seasons.
Had he not came back and stayed retired his CAREER PPG would had been better than Gretzky's

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

lemieux left the NHL for 3 seasons -97/98 ..98/99...99/2000 because of bad health.
Came back a broken man and played part of 5 seasons.
Had he not came back and stayed retired his CAREER PPG would had been better than Gretzky's

His career PPG was higher because Gretzky played 500+ more games (6+ extra seasons). Check their PPG at any equal amount of games played (100, 500, etc) and Gretzky is comfortably ahead.

 

[RSPens]

And a higher PPG.

Not before Lemieux came out of retirement to help save the Penguins franchise. Before Lemieux retired the first time he averaged more than 2ppg

 

[Midnight Judges]

I wouldn’t dare speaking if I were you, considering you just posted that “gretzky is so much better than anyone else on this list”. Lemieux is on the list. The gap between Gretzky and Lemieux, whatever it may be, is not close to being as big as the words “so much better” suggest.

Sure it is.

Lemieux may have equaled Gretzky's peak, but Gretzky achieved it for so much longer and so much more consistently that the two players are not remotely on the same tier.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Anyway, the poll doesn't specify if this is for 1 year or for a core of players that you have under contract for 8, 10, or 12 years or whatever.

This makes a big difference IMO because for one peak season the difference between Gretzky and Lemieux may be negligible. But for careers, Gretzky absolutely curb stomps Lemieux and they are not on the same planet in terms of all-time greats. In this respect, putting Lemieux on a tier with Gretzky is downright delusional.

 

[La Masse]

Not before Lemieux came out of retirement to help save the Penguins franchise. Before Lemieux retired the first time he averaged more than 2ppg

With Lemieux its a game of what ifs. Imagine if Wayne had retired in the early 90’s how higher his PPG would be. Wayne also played more games then Mario so it brought his PPG down

 

[La Masse]

You are right, Lemieux was better....

Put Lemieux on the Oilers roster & he has those records plus. Put Gretzky on those Penguin teams & not even close...

99 was the main reason that team was so good. Of course they won a cup after he left but don’t let that fool you from the fact that he is the GOAT. Lemieux is a better talent ill give you that.

 

[tony d]

Pittsburgh's group, close though. Here's how I'd rank the 8 centres based upon their careers (Retired players) or what I project them to be (Active players):

Gretzky
Lemieux
Crosby
Mcdavid
Messier
Malkin
Fracis
Weight

 

[edog37]

Bit ironic when quoted back to back. Shoulda woulda coulda means nothing, if Lemiuex was as good he would have found a way to beat those records. You said so yourself.

In response to your reply, Malkin does have equivalents. How are you comparing the list? The odd man out is Francis...he gets paired against the "???"

Lemieux | Gretz
Crosby | McDavid
Malkin | Messier
Francis | ????

Francis is better than the players the op suggested, but there is a small margin between messier/malkin imo. If you wanted to match messier against Crosby and McDavid against malkin fine. McDavid might not have a better peak but he is currently having a better prime. Have to see how it plays out...

ok, switch Francis with Malkin or the other way around, Pens still have better center depth...

If Gretzky was better than Lemieux, he would have found a way to score a goal in every way possible in a single game or come back from cancer & win the scoring title.....goes both ways...

my argument is, Lemieux was on lesser teams for a longer period of time & absolutely dominated. He got beat up on a nightly basis whereas Gretzky did not have to deal with that...

 

[edog37]

99 was the main reason that team was so good. Of course they won a cup after he left but don’t let that fool you from the fact that he is the GOAT. Lemieux is a better talent ill give you that.

so if Lemieux is the better talent, then how is Gretzky the GOAT....that's a logic foul....

 

[La Masse]

so if Lemieux is the better talent, then how is Gretzky the GOAT....that's a logic foul....

Lemieux is the better talent when looking purely at physical skillset. What set 99 apart from everybody else was his mind. His vision and anticipation trumps anyone else fairly easily. Gretzky is the GOAT because he dominated his peers like nobody else. I wont even point to his stats total because its too easy. Lemieux could have came close to a number of 99’s records but the fact is he didnt.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Anyway, the poll doesn't specify if this is for 1 year or for a core of players that you have under contract for 8, 10, or 12 years or whatever.

This makes a big difference IMO because for one peak season the difference between Gretzky and Lemieux may be negligible. But for careers, Gretzky absolutely curb stomps Lemieux and they are not on the same planet in terms of all-time greats. In this respect, putting Lemieux on a tier with Gretzky is downright delusional.

Post is a joke. Everyone in the hockey world puts Lemieux and Gretzky at similar levels.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Post is a joke. Everyone in the hockey world puts Lemieux and Gretzky at similar levels.

I didn't fail to notice there is zero rational basis in your post. It's nothing more than an appeal to authority (logical fallacy).

Gretzky and Lemieux's peak seasons are similar, except Lemieux achieved that level of play far less often than Gretzky. Less than half as often really.

To think these two accomplishments are similar is not warranted.

 

[780il]

Easily Edmonton

Gretzky

Lemieux

Crosby
Mcdavid
Messier
Malkin

Francis
Weight

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Post is a joke. Everyone in the hockey world puts Lemieux and Gretzky at similar levels.

Which one? The one suggesting Lemieux and Gretzky are equal?

 

[North Cole]

ok, switch Francis with Malkin or the other way around, Pens still have better center depth...

If Gretzky was better than Lemieux, he would have found a way to score a goal in every way possible in a single game or come back from cancer & win the scoring title.....goes both ways...

my argument is, Lemieux was on lesser teams for a longer period of time & absolutely dominated. He got beat up on a nightly basis whereas Gretzky did not have to deal with that...

But your argument becomes invalid when you contradict yourself. The other posters argument was literally the same. McDavid plays on a lesser team and he also dominates, b2b art ross. My point is you cant dismiss McDavid playing on a lesser team and then give lemieux a pass for it. You act like there wasn't 4 or more hall of famers on his team at one point...

I think the pens have better depth too, but I think Gretzky is the Goat, comfortably. That where we dont agree.

The rest of your argument makes no sense. Gretzky cant be the best ever because he didn't come back from cancer?? Seriously? Was he supposed to go to Chernobyl and give himself cancer so he could prove to you that he could beat it? That's the worst argument I've seen, no offense. You're actually taking credit away from Gretzky for not having cancer.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Easily Edmonton

Gretzky

Lemieux

Crosby
Mcdavid
Messier
Malkin

Francis
Weight

I'd personally have it closer to:
Gretzky/Lemieux

Crosby/McDavid
Messier
Malkin

Francis


Weight

The first tier is obvious, and while I understand if one wants to rank Gretzky first, they're close enough that I can see putting them on a similar tier (sort of like Crosby/McDavid).

The next tier, I think McDavid and Crosby are/will be slightly ahead, followed by Messier (more consistent/less injury prone than Malkin), then Malkin.

I think Francis is on a tier just below those four. Longevity and consistency he keeps pace, but peak play he wasn't as dominant as those four were.

I think Weight brings up the rear, and by quite a gap.

So I'd personally take the Pens foursome, largely because I think the gap between Francis and Weight is bigger than any of the gaps between the top three Oilers and the top three Penguins.

 

[780il]

I'd personally have it closer to:
Gretzky/Lemieux

Crosby/McDavid
Messier
Malkin

Francis


Weight

The first tier is obvious, and while I understand if one wants to rank Gretzky first, they're close enough that I can see putting them on a similar tier (sort of like Crosby/McDavid).

The next tier, I think McDavid and Crosby are/will be slightly ahead, followed by Messier (more consistent/less injury prone than Malkin), then Malkin.

I think Francis is on a tier just below those four. Longevity and consistency he keeps pace, but peak play he wasn't as dominant as those four were.

I think Weight brings up the rear, and by quite a gap.

So I'd personally take the Pens foursome, largely because I think the gap between Francis and Weight is bigger than any of the gaps between the top three Oilers and the top three Penguins.

As an Oilers fan I can say that if we are looking at entire career accomplishments, Sid is ahead of Mcdavid. Gretzky imo is on a level by himself that possibly no one will ever match. Mario is just below him on another tier by himself. Then come Crosby, Mcdavid, Messier, Malkin. The gap between Weight and Francis is a decent size. But in the end I think Gretzky compensates for that, some might forget how absolutely dominant Wayne was. It is close tho, everyone is entitled to their opinion so it could go both ways imo.

 

[HOPE]

Wayne


Lemieux
Sid
Mcdavid
Malkin

Francis
Who cares.

Ill take the team with a prime 99 over anybody. He can turn a 4th liner into a decent player

gretzky wouldn't do shit in todays NHL, while Lemieux would be able to have an impact.