Post-Game Talk: GM 4 | Welcome to Skid Row | Flames def. Canucks 5-2 (Virtanen, Myers)

[krutovsdonut]

I don’t think anything this management does is unquestionable.

Also, that’s a pretty meaningless statement as it removes any context when evaluating Benning. Management is an ongoing activity, and discretely evaluating one particular decision, while simply accepting the circumstances, is pretty useless in my opinion.

i think they felt the team was not going further as it was built and looked for a way to change the mix. i think they wanted a team that pushed play from the defence. they concluded the team defence was dominated and defined by tanev's defensive style, and they concluded that stecher was going to earn minutes with a coach on effort that were better used on a more talented player with less effort.

they also concluded that resigning marky for 6 years was an enormous gamble with demko in the wings, and that given the age of the team they would be better off betting on demko.

those evaluations were correct to my mind excepting intangibles, which most people here tend to discount. management made the correct analytics driven call to change the mix if they could.

the implementation was also not bad. schmidt to replace tanev takes the team where they want to go. hamonic is an excellent stop gap leaving room for a prospect or a signing. holtby was an excellent goalie to bring along demko.

but when you change pieces, intangibles can bite you. based on the way markstrom and tanev played these last two games, you cannot discount the fact their loss is a factor in the results.

 

[4Twenty]

15th in Sv% at 5 on 5

17th in shooting% at 5 on 5.

4th worst High Danger Corsi against per 60 at 5 on 5. Their contemporaries are LA, Anaheim, Arizona and San Jose here.

5th worst scoring chance against per 60 at 5 on 5.

2nd worst expected-goals against per 60 at 5 on 5.

This looks a lot like every other Travis Green season.

This is what I use @Luckylarry

Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[krutovsdonut]

I thought he earned extra attacker duty last night, but they gave it to Tanner instead.

The guy tripled the next most shots on goal for Canucks last night.

yeah, he at least earned a regular shift in the second. do you know what his minutes were in the three periods?

 

[Fatass]

Thats BRUTAL special teams Pastor. More brutal then something less brutal thats for sure

Our PP needs to score. Same group, so no excuses.
Our PK lost its two most important pieces: Marky and Tanev. The PK was definitely going to take a big step back.
Imo, the players on the PP know they lost Marky and Tanev from their PK (and the PK will be worse) so they are under extra pressure to score on the PP to compensate, and are “squeezing” the proverbial sticks.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Is Juiolevi playing ahead of Rathbone Bennng getting involved in on ice decisions? Clearly “Bone” is the better player. Maybe we have a scenario where Benning wants his pick (Juiolevi) playing ahead of another great Bracket (scouts) pick?

i don't know how you can possibly have a confident evaluation of rathbone at the nhl level right now.

 

[Fatass]

15th in Sv% at 5 on 5

17th in shooting% at 5 on 5.

4th worst High Danger Corsi against per 60 at 5 on 5. Their contemporaries are LA, Anaheim, Arizona and San Jose here.

5th worst scoring chance against per 60 at 5 on 5.

2nd worst expected-goals against per 60 at 5 on 5.

This looks a lot like every other Travis Green season.

I appreciate posts (posters) who know how to find these stats. It’s obvious to the eye we are getting dominated 5 on 5, and these stats confirm that.

 

[MS]

i'd like to try an assessment of what is up with the canucks. to that end, i'd like peoples' opinions as to which of the following factors are in play.

1-new player mix / early season adjustments

2-players struggling (be specific)

3-players having unrealistic expectations of themselves or the team.

4-dressing room issues

5-mistakes by coaching staff (be specific)

6-conflict with coaching staff

7-conflict with management

I'd put the issues this season as :

1) Not necessarily 'conflict' with the coaching staff or management or dressing room discontent or anything like that, but the players losing confidence and belief in the process after key players left and the roster clearly went backward. It's a group that to me feels disappointed by events of the past few months and you see it reflected on the ice.

2) Huge downgrade in goal. And it's not that Holtby/Demko have been bad, it's just that 'average' is a big step down from probably the best goalie in the league last year. Markstrom masked a lot of problems with this team.

3) A roster not designed for matchups + a coach who goes to bad matchups. There is simply no forward line on this team right now you'd be comfortable having on the ice against McDavid or Gaudreau. And no real defined matchup pairing on defense, either - we've been spoiled by Tanev/Edler for a long time. Instead the coaching staff is using the dreadful Beagle line in that role which is a) ineffective and b) overplays them at the expense of better players. Plus having Juolevi dressed for 7 minutes just messes up everything on the back end.

4) Carrying on from (3), no real defensive system or identity. Giving up 40 shots every night and hoping your goalie wins the game for you is not a sustainable strategy. This team is soft and slow.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Thats BRUTAL special teams Pastor. More brutal then something less brutal thats for sure

Out of character...Also, when your special teams are a disaster, you don't start taking undisciplined penalties (Motte,Myers, Pettersson,Roussel).

 

[Fatass]

i don't know how you can possibly have a confident evaluation of rathbone at the nhl level right now.

Just compare skating, and it’s clear Rathbone will be better in the National League. I want OJ to succeed, but think he skates well enough to. He’s very slow footed, whereas Rathbone has very quick feet.

 

[Fatass]

Out of character...Also, when your special teams are a disaster, you don't start taking undisciplined penalties (Motte,Myers, Pettersson,Roussel).

Maybe our players are super frustrated with the backwards steps (Losing key players) we took in the off season, and it’s bubbling up on the ice?

 

[Grumbler]

you somehow had “GM and coaching” autocorrected to “cap”.

Well that too, but we lost key personnel forwards and defence men that made our barely playoff team last year.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Out of character...Also, when your special teams are a disaster, you don't start taking undisciplined penalties (Motte,Myers, Pettersson,Roussel).

it is out of character going back some years. the team has historically lost with dignity and defiant effort. these meltdowns are definitely striking. they do reflect something. it is possible it is the team realizing they are not as good as they thought they would be or just confirming they had taken a step back as feared.

but i don't think you can rule out other concerns. maybe it is dissatisfaction with the coaching as some speculate. or maybe there is a deeper conflict.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Just compare skating, and it’s clear Rathbone will be better in the National League. I want OJ to succeed, but think he skates well enough to. He’s very slow footed, whereas Rathbone has very quick feet.

skating alone does not make the player.

juolevi is doing some cool things at the nhl level. he's an absolute puzzle at times as well, but if he can stabilize the rest and do the things he does well, he's going to be a great dman. big if though.

the most encouraging thing i have seen him do is battle tkachuk one on one and do ok. just like the old days in london.

 

[4Twenty]

skating alone does not make the player.

juolevi is doing some cool things at the nhl level. he's an absolute puzzle at times as well, but if he can stabilize the rest and do the things he does well, he's going to be a great dman. big if though.

the most encouraging thing i have seen him do is battle tkachuk one on one and do ok. just like the old days in london.

I thought he looked dreadful against tkachuk like man vs boy.

OJ also lost the corsi battle to MT 9-0

 

[supercanuck]

4th worst High Danger Corsi against per 60 at 5 on 5. Their contemporaries are LA, Anaheim, Arizona and San Jose here.

That Pacific division.

 

[xtra]

4th worst High Danger Corsi against per 60 at 5 on 5. Their contemporaries are LA, Anaheim, Arizona and San Jose here.

5th worst scoring chance against per 60 at 5 on 5.

2nd worst expected-goals against per 60 at 5 on 5.

Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

I waiting a few more games before I start laughing at how bad we are cause as we say when laughing at people saying the playoffs are the true reflection of the team....the sample size is too small.


Does anyone know if there is a site that would allow us to track a teams special teams by month? I’d like to see how our special teams progressed last year

 

[krutovsdonut]

I thought he looked dreadful against tkachuk like man vs boy.

OJ also lost the corsi battle to MT 9-0

interesting. i thought he clearly let tkachuk get in his head and distract him, but he did hold his own in their little battles. sometimes just showing up is a victory.

and i don't think i am going to hold juolevi accountable for corsi in that game.

 

[4Twenty]

interesting. i thought he clearly let tkachuk get in his head and distract him, but he did hold his own in their little battles. sometimes just showing up is a victory.

and i don't think i am going to hold juolevi accountable for corsi in that game.

Oh I don’t hold him accountable nor do I think him giving it a go as bad. I just thought he looked outmatched significantly. To the point where Tkachuk was targeting him. Saw the same thing vs Draisatl.

two great players but I’m having a hard time seeing this good Juolevi I’ve seen a few remark about. He looks unfit for the league and I think his coach agrees.


the Canucks desperately need Juolevi to be a contributor.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Maybe are players are super frustrated with the backwards steps (Losing key players) we took in the off season, and it’s bubbling up on the ice?

Who knows..?..In the cap world , good players are being moved (Schmidt) as teams are scrambling to get under the cap..If our elite players are spending their time depressesed about players coming and going , then we've got a serious problem.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I'd put the issues this season as :

1) Not necessarily 'conflict' with the coaching staff or management or dressing room discontent or anything like that, but the players losing confidence and belief in the process after key players left and the roster clearly went backward. It's a group that to me feels disappointed by events of the past few months and you see it reflected on the ice.

2) Huge downgrade in goal. And it's not that Holtby/Demko have been bad, it's just that 'average' is a big step down from probably the best goalie in the league last year. Markstrom masked a lot of problems with this team.

3) A roster not designed for matchups + a coach who goes to bad matchups. There is simply no forward line on this team right now you'd be comfortable having on the ice against McDavid or Gaudreau. And no real defined matchup pairing on defense, either - we've been spoiled by Tanev/Edler for a long time. Instead the coaching staff is using the dreadful Beagle line in that role which is a) ineffective and b) overplays them at the expense of better players. Plus having Juolevi dressed for 7 minutes just messes up everything on the back end.

4) Carrying on from (3), no real defensive system or identity. Giving up 40 shots every night and hoping your goalie wins the game for you is not a sustainable strategy. This team is soft and slow.

Yeah Markstrom really hid a lot of issues. The team was still below average defensively the last two years. With average goaltending, Edler and Hamonic looking very slow so far, and Juolevi being on the roster because of politics and playing 7 minutes a game, we will give up a lot of goals if we continue to give up the chances we do. Not having the personnel to have a shutdown line and pair like you said will not help.

It looks like we will have to be the Oilers and out score all our defensive woes again this year.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Oh I don’t hold him accountable nor do I think him giving it a go as bad. I just thought he looked outmatched significantly. To the point where Tkachuk was targeting him. Saw the same thing vs Draisatl.

two great players but I’m having a hard time seeing this good Juolevi I’ve seen a few remark about. He looks unfit for the league and I think his coach agrees.

if green's opinion as measured by ice time carries weight, i assume you agree 3rd year centre gaudette is not an nhl quality player.

juolevi is apparently a very stubborn guy who still thinks he can break into the league like quinn hughes by playing his full trixie game. his coach like any coach would like him to play steady defence first and then pick his sports to get creative.

 

[4Twenty]

I waiting a few more games before I start laughing at how bad we are cause as we say when laughing at people saying the playoffs are the true reflection of the team....the sample size is too small.


Does anyone know if there is a site that would allow us to track a teams special teams by month? I’d like to see how our special teams progressed last year

You have to do it manually on nhl.com but last years PK was top 10 in October, bottom 10 in both November and December, top 10 in January and then bottom 10 to finish the regular season. Overall the 16th team on the PK so smack in the middle of the league.

 

[4Twenty]

if green's opinion as measured by ice time carries weight, i assume you agree 3rd year centre gaudette is not an nhl quality player.

juolevi is apparently a very stubborn guy who still thinks he can break into the league like quinn hughes by playing his full trixie game. his coach like any coach would like him to play steady defence first and then pick his sports to get creative.

I don’t think Gaudette has established himself to be more than replacement level. He rode some unsustainable numbers last year and then we saw him in the bubble.

I’m not sure it’s stubbornness I see with OJ but hopefully he can earn a proper role soon.

 

[Fatass]

Oh I don’t hold him accountable nor do I think him giving it a go as bad. I just thought he looked outmatched significantly. To the point where Tkachuk was targeting him. Saw the same thing vs Draisatl.

two great players but I’m having a hard time seeing this good Juolevi I’ve seen a few remark about. He looks unfit for the league and I think his coach agrees.


the Canucks desperately need Juolevi to be a contributor.

Or just play Rathbone in that spot. Quick feet, and 200 pounds. Plus elite puck skills, and super smart.

 

[4Twenty]

Or just play Rathbone in that spot. Quick feet, and 200 pounds. Plus elite puck skills, and super smart.

I think you've been reading too much fan fic.

Rathbone is a project and I've seen you use the skating reference a bunch, but do you recall Matthew Bartkowski? 'nuff said about skating being all you need, same goes for a prosbect like Madison Bowey. He can skate like a dream but you need to bring more than skating fast and shooting hard. I don't think Rathbone is ready but circumstances don't lend well to this being a great development year for any of the AHL level prospects around the league.